Were all Pennsy 3 Chimes the same?
- Thread starter Jinty105
- Start date
blueodessey
Well-known member
This may be of help to you?
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27293
Hey guys, I have a question....
Not necessarily limited to the PRR here, but I was listening to some PRR Steam Audio earlier and noticed how some whistles were very low and deep, some more higher pitched, and some more raspy.....
Was this possible because the railroad had to make new modified whistles to achieve the desired pitch/tone of the whistle or could the same standard whistle simply be tuned and positioned a certain way to sound slightly different?
If so, what were techniques railroads used to make these changes?
Thanks!
- Dan
=========================================================================
Generally speaking, PRR had two whistles, a three-note passenger whistle and a small single-note freight whistle.
The freight whistle was very high pitched and would play a recognizable single note when it was in good shape. They were shaped something like an old-fashioned egg cup. However, if worn or otherwise in poor condition, it would deteriorate into a toneless shriek. It had the well deserved nickname of "banshee." There are available recordings of both these sounds, although I don't know of any locos in operation that have one. They're not very nice sounding!
The passenger whistle was a very mellow although not particularly low pitched three- note minor chord, somewhere around 1st position Dm (d-f-a). Check out any Strasburg recording with 1223 or 7002 and you can hear what a PRR whistle sounds like in good condition. However.... this is where things get dicey. When the passenger whistle condition deteriorates, various thing can happen. One or more of the notes may not sound. One or more notes may overblow and sound a higher note, changing the harmonics of the whistle and the resultant sound. The passenger whistle could also sound raspy, even although all three notes ere sounding. There are several M1 recordings that illustrate this sound.
Doppler effect would also influence the track side sound of both whistles. They would sound higher if the loco was approaching the listener and lower if the loco were going away.
Deposits in the whistle chambers, wear on the lower edge of the bell portion of the whistle (the top and most visible part of the whistle), position of the bell on the steam ring would all have an effect on the sound. I believe most of the differences you heard were the result of random variation in condition rather than anything planned or designed.
Hope this helps,
Dave Stephenson
=========================================================================
Actually, this would be a lovely topic of much debate among both whistle fans and PRR fans, if only many participants could get past their sense of thinking they know what were absolutely "definitive" answers. First things first, in spite of the nickname/slogan "Standard Railroad of the World," the PRR was often anything BUT standardized. The whistles in question were built by the PRR in their own foundries in Altoona, which is actually one of the rare cases where a whistle "from the XYZ Railroad" is literally FROM the railroad, unlike the Hancocks, Nathans, Crosbys, etc. where there's really no way of telling, unless you removed the whistle with your own hands or tools, what railroad it came from. (The astute and cynical whistle collectors will say that of the 25 Hancock long-bell three-chimes that graced UP Big Boys, about 100 are in collectors' hands claimed as a "Big Boy whistle," and similarly, of the 278 Leslie A200-156 air horns that rode on PRR GG1's, about 600 are in collectors' hands........)
The description of the "Banshee" whistle (and, as another example of the above snark, it appears the "standard" spelling of that word among PRR "experts" is "banchee;" whether this is in deference to the apparent bad spelling of PRR employees or their own inability to spell is another debate entirely!) is pretty much accurate. The actual pitch of a proper PRR single-note is a couple notes below the classic British screaming eggcups you may have seen in various Hitchcock movies or heard in UK recordings--not to be confused with the Stanier "Black Five" hooter which almost perfectly matched the N&W freight hooter heard on N&W 1218 in pitch, if not in power/decibels. Similar PRR designs have been traced back almost as far as the 1870s.
The PRR three-chime was used on K4s, G5s, D16sb, J1, and M1 classes, the latter two being freight loco classes. The top plate of a PRR three-chime should bear the pattern number "X 6532 A"; there were no stamps or the like for railroad, loco number, or the like. The original shop-built triad is listed as E-G-B, an E-minor triad in root position, a tone later adopted by Nathan for its three-chime whistles
When PRR 1361 was restored in 1987, supposedly a whole bunch of mis-treated PRR whistles surfaced from Altoona-area cellars and attics--I remember the first time 1361 was steamed, it took almost five or six tries before any acceptable sound emanated from the loco's whistle valve. But there are/were two distinct sounds to the classic PRR 3-chime, and both made appearances during 1361's brief running career. The sound the first generation that didn't see PRR steam in person is familiar with is a deeper, haunting moan made popular by PRR 1223 and "7002," as well as several Semaphore records of PRR steam, made using wire recordings by John Prophet of the Buffalo, NY area--particularly "On Time," the LP of K4's on the New York & Long Branch. However, if you go to the complete archive of Prophet's PRR recordings released by Semaphore and the PRRT&HS, you'll find a higher-pitched three-chime prevalent in recordings made outside of central Pa. and the NY&LB. Some folks have referred, with no real authority for this, as the "Eastern" sound and the "Lines West" sound.......
The story I've been TOLD by at least two whistle experts is that the PRR, late in its steam days, undertook modifications to some of its whistles to change the notes sounded, in order to reduce the shrill noise in closer quarters. This makes sense if you realize that, by the late 1940s, steam was generally confined to commuter passenger service. Also, it was common for the three-chime whistles to be robbed from passenger steamers being retired and switched onto freight power if the opportunity arose--about the only folks that could have loved the "banshee" were the legal or casualty-prevention department of the PRR.
Does anyone at Strasburg want to reach into the "whistle safe" in the shop and tell us what the whistles used on 1223 and "7002" look like today?
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27293
Hey guys, I have a question....
Not necessarily limited to the PRR here, but I was listening to some PRR Steam Audio earlier and noticed how some whistles were very low and deep, some more higher pitched, and some more raspy.....
Was this possible because the railroad had to make new modified whistles to achieve the desired pitch/tone of the whistle or could the same standard whistle simply be tuned and positioned a certain way to sound slightly different?
If so, what were techniques railroads used to make these changes?
Thanks!
- Dan
=========================================================================
Generally speaking, PRR had two whistles, a three-note passenger whistle and a small single-note freight whistle.
The freight whistle was very high pitched and would play a recognizable single note when it was in good shape. They were shaped something like an old-fashioned egg cup. However, if worn or otherwise in poor condition, it would deteriorate into a toneless shriek. It had the well deserved nickname of "banshee." There are available recordings of both these sounds, although I don't know of any locos in operation that have one. They're not very nice sounding!
The passenger whistle was a very mellow although not particularly low pitched three- note minor chord, somewhere around 1st position Dm (d-f-a). Check out any Strasburg recording with 1223 or 7002 and you can hear what a PRR whistle sounds like in good condition. However.... this is where things get dicey. When the passenger whistle condition deteriorates, various thing can happen. One or more of the notes may not sound. One or more notes may overblow and sound a higher note, changing the harmonics of the whistle and the resultant sound. The passenger whistle could also sound raspy, even although all three notes ere sounding. There are several M1 recordings that illustrate this sound.
Doppler effect would also influence the track side sound of both whistles. They would sound higher if the loco was approaching the listener and lower if the loco were going away.
Deposits in the whistle chambers, wear on the lower edge of the bell portion of the whistle (the top and most visible part of the whistle), position of the bell on the steam ring would all have an effect on the sound. I believe most of the differences you heard were the result of random variation in condition rather than anything planned or designed.
Hope this helps,
Dave Stephenson
=========================================================================
Actually, this would be a lovely topic of much debate among both whistle fans and PRR fans, if only many participants could get past their sense of thinking they know what were absolutely "definitive" answers. First things first, in spite of the nickname/slogan "Standard Railroad of the World," the PRR was often anything BUT standardized. The whistles in question were built by the PRR in their own foundries in Altoona, which is actually one of the rare cases where a whistle "from the XYZ Railroad" is literally FROM the railroad, unlike the Hancocks, Nathans, Crosbys, etc. where there's really no way of telling, unless you removed the whistle with your own hands or tools, what railroad it came from. (The astute and cynical whistle collectors will say that of the 25 Hancock long-bell three-chimes that graced UP Big Boys, about 100 are in collectors' hands claimed as a "Big Boy whistle," and similarly, of the 278 Leslie A200-156 air horns that rode on PRR GG1's, about 600 are in collectors' hands........)
The description of the "Banshee" whistle (and, as another example of the above snark, it appears the "standard" spelling of that word among PRR "experts" is "banchee;" whether this is in deference to the apparent bad spelling of PRR employees or their own inability to spell is another debate entirely!) is pretty much accurate. The actual pitch of a proper PRR single-note is a couple notes below the classic British screaming eggcups you may have seen in various Hitchcock movies or heard in UK recordings--not to be confused with the Stanier "Black Five" hooter which almost perfectly matched the N&W freight hooter heard on N&W 1218 in pitch, if not in power/decibels. Similar PRR designs have been traced back almost as far as the 1870s.
The PRR three-chime was used on K4s, G5s, D16sb, J1, and M1 classes, the latter two being freight loco classes. The top plate of a PRR three-chime should bear the pattern number "X 6532 A"; there were no stamps or the like for railroad, loco number, or the like. The original shop-built triad is listed as E-G-B, an E-minor triad in root position, a tone later adopted by Nathan for its three-chime whistles
When PRR 1361 was restored in 1987, supposedly a whole bunch of mis-treated PRR whistles surfaced from Altoona-area cellars and attics--I remember the first time 1361 was steamed, it took almost five or six tries before any acceptable sound emanated from the loco's whistle valve. But there are/were two distinct sounds to the classic PRR 3-chime, and both made appearances during 1361's brief running career. The sound the first generation that didn't see PRR steam in person is familiar with is a deeper, haunting moan made popular by PRR 1223 and "7002," as well as several Semaphore records of PRR steam, made using wire recordings by John Prophet of the Buffalo, NY area--particularly "On Time," the LP of K4's on the New York & Long Branch. However, if you go to the complete archive of Prophet's PRR recordings released by Semaphore and the PRRT&HS, you'll find a higher-pitched three-chime prevalent in recordings made outside of central Pa. and the NY&LB. Some folks have referred, with no real authority for this, as the "Eastern" sound and the "Lines West" sound.......
The story I've been TOLD by at least two whistle experts is that the PRR, late in its steam days, undertook modifications to some of its whistles to change the notes sounded, in order to reduce the shrill noise in closer quarters. This makes sense if you realize that, by the late 1940s, steam was generally confined to commuter passenger service. Also, it was common for the three-chime whistles to be robbed from passenger steamers being retired and switched onto freight power if the opportunity arose--about the only folks that could have loved the "banshee" were the legal or casualty-prevention department of the PRR.
Does anyone at Strasburg want to reach into the "whistle safe" in the shop and tell us what the whistles used on 1223 and "7002" look like today?
blueodessey
Well-known member
2nd Post additional discussion for Chimes:
[TABLE="class: tablebg, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: row1"]
[TD] G. W. Laepple [/TD]
[TD="width: 100%"] [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: gensmall, width: 100%"] Post subject: Re: Steam Whistle Question....
Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:28 pm[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row1"]
[TD="class: msjrow"]Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:10 pm
Posts: 1121[/TD]
[TD="class: msjrow"] [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD] I may be way off base here, but I would think the boiler pressure of a particular locomotive would have some bearing on the tone and volume of the whistle. I would also point out that recordings of PRR whistles offering different pitches and sound quality could be the results of wear to the languid plate at the base of the whistle and/or the condition of the whistle bell. Particularly in the final years of PRR steam, it doesn't appear that shop forces paid much attention to the whistles, as long as they produced a sound -- any sound.
A perfect demonstration of the different characteristics of whistles may be heard on the locomotives of the East Broad Top. With the exception of no. 15, the other (formerly) operational engines, nos. 12, 14, and 17, all have the same whistle, but the sound of each is quite distinctive. No. 17, in particular, has a high pitched sound due to wear. No. 15, at one point, carried a PRR passenger whistle which had a distinctly different tone and pitch when compared to the other locomotives.
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: gensmall, align: right"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row1"]
[TD="class: botrow"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablebg, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: row2"]
[TD] Alexander D. Mitchell IV [/TD]
[TD="width: 100%"] [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: gensmall, width: 100%"] Post subject: Re: Steam Whistle Question....
Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:59 am[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row2"]
[TD="class: msjrow"]Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 10368
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"[/TD]
[TD="class: msjrow"] [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD] You're not off base, Wayne, and we presume neither are the whistles. <
On the one hand, there really shouldn't be THAT much difference between a K4s or M1a leading the "Broadway" across Ohio and a K4s on the New York & Long Branch, assuming the fireman is actually keeping up close to full pressure and not fighting a tender full of bad coal. Put the same whistle on, for example, a Case steam tractor or PRR 0-6-0 643, you're presumably not going to have the same 205 psi that the K4s used. The PRR made its own whistle valves as well, and the two different designs (vertical mount as on "7002" and 1223, angled mount attached to the side of the dome as on most other locos) may be a factor. Even Doppler effect has to be factored in if there's any appreciable speed to the loco. And, yes, there are whistle fanatics that go as far as holding up frequency spectrum analyzers at horn/whistle blows.
Unfortunately, it'll be a long time--if ever--before we get to hear EBT 12, 14, 15, and 17 side by side again to compare. Dig out the videos, I guess. <:-/
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: gensmall, align: right"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row2"]
[TD="class: botrow"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablebg, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: row1"]
[TD] prr643 [/TD]
[TD="width: 100%"] [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: gensmall, width: 100%"] Post subject: Re: Steam Whistle Question....
Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:35 pm[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row1"]
[TD="class: msjrow"]Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:31 pm
Posts: 69[/TD]
[TD="class: msjrow"] [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD] The main reason that the regular whistle on 643 does not sound exactly like a PRR passenger whistle is that it is NOT a PRR passenger whistle. The whistle most used on 643 is a Lunkinheimer shop whistle that uses what is said to be the same notes as a PRR whistle. It does sound very similar, but is not an exact match. One of our other members brings out a genuine PRR passenger whistle a couple of times a year and when it is on the engine it sounds pretty much exactly as the recordings I've heard of them do. I don't know what other differences they have, but I can tell you from experience of hefting them up on the boiler that the genuine PRR whistle weights more!
But anyway, my point is, a genuine PRR passenger whistle sounds just right at 150psi! Alexander does have a good point that pressure does make a difference. The Banshee especially is known to really be awful at higher pressures (one of the reasons PRR pretty much stopped using them beyond the I1? just a guess.). But keep in mind both the Banshee and Passenger chime were pretty much designed before locomotive boilers got much beyond 150-200 pounds.
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: gensmall, align: right"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row1"]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablebg, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: row2"]
[TD] PRR Forever [/TD]
[TD="width: 100%"] [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: gensmall, width: 100%"] Post subject: Re: Steam Whistle Question....
Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:21 pm[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row2"]
[TD="class: msjrow"]Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:38 pm
Posts: 91[/TD]
[TD="class: msjrow"] [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD] Thanks for the responses, guys! Some very interesting things I've learned...
Dave Stephenson wrote:
The freight whistle was very high pitched and would play a recognizable single note when it was in good shape. They were shaped something like an old-fashioned egg cup. However, if worn or otherwise in poor condition, it would deteriorate into a toneless shriek. It had the well deserved nickname of "banshee." There are available recordings of both these sounds, although I don't know of any locos in operation that have one. They're not very nice sounding!
Here's a clip of an H10s with a banshee...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYgMuLycRIo
And if you wanna hear a clip of a PRR Passenger whistle when it REALLY sounds good...here's PRR 7002 during the 85th Anniversary of the Broadway Limited. I wish 1361 had sounded this beautiful...
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablebg, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: row2"]
[TD="class: msjrow"]1:45 pm
Posts: 202
Location: Northern Virginia[/TD]
[TD="class: msjrow"] [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD] Thanks for the correction of the PRR whistle. I knew it was higher than a typical Nathan, but never had any documentation as to what the intended three notes were.
Now on the subject of the Nathan, limiting my comments to N&W's applications. Other apps may (and do, at least to my ear) sound slightly different although they're ostensibly the same store-bought whistle. The variation is more sound quality than actual notes.
There was an article in The Arrow (N&WHS magazine) Jan/Feb 2005 that gave a range of notes and different chords for the N&W J's and K2's. There were slight variations ranging from Bflat-D-G, B-D-Fsharp, B-D-G and C-E-G, without the Doppler effect affecting the sound. The K2 was always B-D-Fsharp, and the J had the other three, based on a sample of excursion recordings and videos. Regardless of the slight variation in individual notes and the subjectivity of the observations, the entire Nathan group was at least two steps lower than the design chord for the PRR whistle.
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: gensmall, align: right"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row2"]
[TD="class: botrow"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablebg, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: row1"]
[TD] G. W. Laepple [/TD]
[TD="width: 100%"] [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: gensmall, width: 100%"] Post subject: Re: Steam Whistle Question....
Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:28 pm[/TD][/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row1"]
[TD="class: msjrow"]Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:10 pm
Posts: 1121[/TD]
[TD="class: msjrow"] [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD] I may be way off base here, but I would think the boiler pressure of a particular locomotive would have some bearing on the tone and volume of the whistle. I would also point out that recordings of PRR whistles offering different pitches and sound quality could be the results of wear to the languid plate at the base of the whistle and/or the condition of the whistle bell. Particularly in the final years of PRR steam, it doesn't appear that shop forces paid much attention to the whistles, as long as they produced a sound -- any sound.
A perfect demonstration of the different characteristics of whistles may be heard on the locomotives of the East Broad Top. With the exception of no. 15, the other (formerly) operational engines, nos. 12, 14, and 17, all have the same whistle, but the sound of each is quite distinctive. No. 17, in particular, has a high pitched sound due to wear. No. 15, at one point, carried a PRR passenger whistle which had a distinctly different tone and pitch when compared to the other locomotives.
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: gensmall, align: right"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row1"]
[TD="class: botrow"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablebg, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: row2"]
[TD] Alexander D. Mitchell IV [/TD]
[TD="width: 100%"] [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: gensmall, width: 100%"] Post subject: Re: Steam Whistle Question....
Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:59 am[/TD][/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row2"]
[TD="class: msjrow"]Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 10368
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"[/TD]
[TD="class: msjrow"] [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD] You're not off base, Wayne, and we presume neither are the whistles. <
On the one hand, there really shouldn't be THAT much difference between a K4s or M1a leading the "Broadway" across Ohio and a K4s on the New York & Long Branch, assuming the fireman is actually keeping up close to full pressure and not fighting a tender full of bad coal. Put the same whistle on, for example, a Case steam tractor or PRR 0-6-0 643, you're presumably not going to have the same 205 psi that the K4s used. The PRR made its own whistle valves as well, and the two different designs (vertical mount as on "7002" and 1223, angled mount attached to the side of the dome as on most other locos) may be a factor. Even Doppler effect has to be factored in if there's any appreciable speed to the loco. And, yes, there are whistle fanatics that go as far as holding up frequency spectrum analyzers at horn/whistle blows.
Unfortunately, it'll be a long time--if ever--before we get to hear EBT 12, 14, 15, and 17 side by side again to compare. Dig out the videos, I guess. <:-/
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: gensmall, align: right"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row2"]
[TD="class: botrow"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablebg, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: row1"]
[TD] prr643 [/TD]
[TD="width: 100%"] [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: gensmall, width: 100%"] Post subject: Re: Steam Whistle Question....
Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:35 pm[/TD][/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row1"]
[TD="class: msjrow"]Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:31 pm
Posts: 69[/TD]
[TD="class: msjrow"] [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD] The main reason that the regular whistle on 643 does not sound exactly like a PRR passenger whistle is that it is NOT a PRR passenger whistle. The whistle most used on 643 is a Lunkinheimer shop whistle that uses what is said to be the same notes as a PRR whistle. It does sound very similar, but is not an exact match. One of our other members brings out a genuine PRR passenger whistle a couple of times a year and when it is on the engine it sounds pretty much exactly as the recordings I've heard of them do. I don't know what other differences they have, but I can tell you from experience of hefting them up on the boiler that the genuine PRR whistle weights more!
But anyway, my point is, a genuine PRR passenger whistle sounds just right at 150psi! Alexander does have a good point that pressure does make a difference. The Banshee especially is known to really be awful at higher pressures (one of the reasons PRR pretty much stopped using them beyond the I1? just a guess.). But keep in mind both the Banshee and Passenger chime were pretty much designed before locomotive boilers got much beyond 150-200 pounds.
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: gensmall, align: right"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row1"]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablebg, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: row2"]
[TD] PRR Forever [/TD]
[TD="width: 100%"] [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: gensmall, width: 100%"] Post subject: Re: Steam Whistle Question....
Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:21 pm[/TD][/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row2"]
[TD="class: msjrow"]Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:38 pm
Posts: 91[/TD]
[TD="class: msjrow"] [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD] Thanks for the responses, guys! Some very interesting things I've learned...
Dave Stephenson wrote:
The freight whistle was very high pitched and would play a recognizable single note when it was in good shape. They were shaped something like an old-fashioned egg cup. However, if worn or otherwise in poor condition, it would deteriorate into a toneless shriek. It had the well deserved nickname of "banshee." There are available recordings of both these sounds, although I don't know of any locos in operation that have one. They're not very nice sounding!
Here's a clip of an H10s with a banshee...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYgMuLycRIo
And if you wanna hear a clip of a PRR Passenger whistle when it REALLY sounds good...here's PRR 7002 during the 85th Anniversary of the Broadway Limited. I wish 1361 had sounded this beautiful...
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablebg, width: 100%"]
[TR="class: row2"]
[TD="class: msjrow"]1:45 pm
Posts: 202
Location: Northern Virginia[/TD]
[TD="class: msjrow"] [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD] Thanks for the correction of the PRR whistle. I knew it was higher than a typical Nathan, but never had any documentation as to what the intended three notes were.
Now on the subject of the Nathan, limiting my comments to N&W's applications. Other apps may (and do, at least to my ear) sound slightly different although they're ostensibly the same store-bought whistle. The variation is more sound quality than actual notes.
There was an article in The Arrow (N&WHS magazine) Jan/Feb 2005 that gave a range of notes and different chords for the N&W J's and K2's. There were slight variations ranging from Bflat-D-G, B-D-Fsharp, B-D-G and C-E-G, without the Doppler effect affecting the sound. The K2 was always B-D-Fsharp, and the J had the other three, based on a sample of excursion recordings and videos. Regardless of the slight variation in individual notes and the subjectivity of the observations, the entire Nathan group was at least two steps lower than the design chord for the PRR whistle.
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: gensmall, align: right"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row2"]
[TD="class: botrow"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
blueodessey
Well-known member
Hopefully someone more familiar might be able to advise further?
I just put this particular part of the story here that I think denotes it?
"But anyway, my point is, a genuine PRR passenger whistle sounds just right at 150psi! Alexander does have a good point that pressure does make a difference. The Banshee especially is known to really be awful at higher pressures (one of the reasons PRR pretty much stopped using them beyond the I1? just a guess.). But keep in mind both the Banshee and Passenger chime were pretty much designed before locomotive boilers got much beyond 150-200 pounds."