Virgin to Lose West Coast?

[iain2006]

In that case that's one hell of a risk they've taken to make a measly 3% profit. It speaks volumes to note that First share price went down when they won the bid, whilst Virgin's went up when they lost.

With only a £190m forfeit if First walks away early, but £2bn to pay over in the last few years, it's fairly clear what will happen. In fact I would say it's now the accepted business model for rail franchising. GNER and Nat Express got away with it, so why not First? The politicians, having made their short-term gain, will no doubt escape any responsibility for the long term mess they will create.

It will be interesting to see if Virgin bid for the East Coast franchise next year, does anyone know when the new franchise for that starts? First and Virgin were really the only ones in the running for West Coast and many operators may see East Coast as a poisoned chalice. With all their rail operations in the UK both Intercity mainlines could be a stretch too far even for First. I wonder if First will meet West Coast profit targets in the first few months and if that will impact on the the East Coast decision. If I was running Virgin and it was financially viable to do so, I would extend the lease on the Pendolino fleet and keep them in a depot ready for an East Coast bid to run them on that route.

 

[iain2006]

I don't believe in the simpistic thinking that palms were greased at all and not a serious thing at all and a feeling based maybe on frustration! However the other night on tv, Sky News did a pie chart on the cost of running a railway and at the end of it it showed that a rail company actually made 3%. Sir Richard Branson had a lot of bother I recall in his day, especially early on and there were unhappy people. Later he however to his credi,t increased the passenger numbers not only a bit but tremendously. Having previous lost the Cross-County franchise and now this he has went ballistic but the point is he submitted a bid under the system well knowing the conditions. He is in danger of looking very immature in his handling of this matter and his rantings bordering on the silly. The man should know better. In fact he said that he would apart from a belated moan about the rules only accept an apology from the Prime Minister to consider a rail franchise again! No PM is going to react to that one. That's just daft and ridiculous.

We will have to wait and see how First operates. They have made some big assertions including an extra coach and much more seating, increased trains - one an hour from Glasgow - London?? Things like this coming to pass and how many Virgin staff take on First trains will be the proof of the pudding. Passengers ar the piggies in the middle but as long as they get a good service the colour on the outside of the trains makes little difference to them.

Not only that one report says they are going to remove catering, another says they are going to improve catering services on trains. I have to say though free wifi in standard class would be good but the shop cars are probably already as good as standardised catering can be (apart from the fact they don't sell Irn Bru but as a Scottish company maybe First will change that).

 

[fran1]

I don't think the pendolinos are passed for the east Coast route.
Oh yes, on my way north this evening I saw a FGW ex catering vehicle heading south by road, now with I think 82 seats stuffed in it. An idea where the ex virgin catering vehicles may be going.

 

[AlanBradbury]

It will be interesting to see if Virgin bid for the East Coast franchise next year, does anyone know when the new franchise for that starts? QUOTE]

It's been put back a few times, originally it was intended to be 2010, then it got bumped to 2011, and the current date is December 2013. They have incidentally investigated the use of Pendolinos on the East Coast, so it is cetainly possible to run them on that track, although I don't know if the boxes for the tilting mechanisms are in place on the route. In any case the Pendolino plan never went ahead they instead used Class 43s and 91s, although apparently there are plans afoot to go with some new stock when the contract goes up for grabs again, probably built by Hitachi, but possibly another maker although the present liveries on East Coast trains were deliberately rather bland in order to make repainting them easier for any franchise winner, but of course that was when they thought that the new operator would be in place by 2010, not three years after that date.

Apparently Stagecoach, which holds 49 percent of Virgin's contract on the WCML, are considering a legal challenge on the decision to hand the contract to FirstGroup. Whether they get anywhere with that is debatable, but if that challenge goes ahead then the decision on the WCML might not be as done and dusted as it presently appears.

Al

 

[rjhowie]

As it happens I was also deeply involved in local politics so not some elementary understanding on my part. Indeed I am well aware there can be from time to time sticky fingers but at the same time I don't feel inclined to assume it is everywhere and everyone. I accept what was said but also have my own view which includes the individuals who misrepresent or in it for their own benefit but others who were the very opposite and resolute and honest as they come. It has become like the old moans about British Rail catering where if you say a thing often enough people willl take it as Gospel!

 

[AlanBradbury]

It may indeed be that there were no dodgy dealings, although I should think it unlikely given the fact that so many people inside the industry have commented that the decision is, at best questionable, and in more than one informed opinion - albeit one or two of them somewhat biased - insane.

When we are talking about literally billions of pounds and the possibility of a monopoly position where the entire rail passenger network of a nation is concerned, and a suspect decision is what has led to that situation in spite of two well-known precedents for similar decisions ending up as a disaster for rail transport, the idea that no strings were pulled nor backs scratched to get us to that point is beyond a credible notion to me. Others are free to disagree with me on that score of course, but I take the view that where there is smoke, it's not terribly unusual to find a fire.

Al

 

[fran1]

For example, I looked on line for a return off peak from Northwich to Plymouth for 2 adults, the cheapest being £277 for the two of us, the journey time of nearly 7 hours with 3 changes of train. By road, £100 fuel

A late reply , Preston-Any station in Belgium (to the border with Luxembourg if you want), return £120. With an old f--ts card. No discount on eurostar.
I can just get to dover and back for that by road.

 

[robd]

A late reply , Preston-Any station in Belgium (to the border with Luxembourg if you want), return £120. With an old f--ts card. No discount on eurostar.
I can just get to dover and back for that by road.

Is that for 2 adults? I/we don't quite qualify at the moment for an old f--ts card, maybe next year!

 

[fran1]

Is that for 2 adults? I/we don't quite qualify at the moment for an old f--ts card, maybe next year!

No just me, there is a family+friends card you could get for your journeys. I think I got your Plymouth trip down to £200, split the ticket to cheltenham spa, then to plymouth. With a third off with a card it looks a lot better value.

 

[robd]

No just me, there is a family+friends card you could get for your journeys. I think I got your Plymouth trip down to £200, split the ticket to cheltenham spa, then to plymouth. With a third off with a card it looks a lot better value.

Thanks but we probably won't be taking up your suggested alternative to the relatively less expensive and infinitely more convenient journey by car!

As a matter of interest, what is the total journey time and how many changes of train does your proposed alternative entail?

Rob.

 

[fran1]

Thanks but we probably won't be taking up your suggested alternative to the relatively less expensive and infinitely more convenient journey by car!

As a matter of interest, what is the total journey time and how many changes of train does your proposed alternative entail?

Rob.

It would be the same train as you would have got but split the ticket and book 4 weeks in advance. Like I said with 30% off the £200 it gets close to the car but the journey times horrendous.
I can leave Brussels at 18.56 euro time and be in Preston for midnight including 3 or 4 pints or 1.5 hours in London.

 

[Steamdemon]

Hey guys, I read about this whilst I was in greece and my thoughts were...'Bad move government, bad move'. Leave the pendolino alone!

 

[robd]

It would be the same train as you would have got but split the ticket and book 4 weeks in advance. Like I said with 30% off the £200 it gets close to the car but the journey times horrendous.
I can leave Brussels at 18.56 euro time and be in Preston for midnight including 3 or 4 pints or 1.5 hours in London.

If one can plan rail journeys 4 weeks in advance of unexpected events then all well and good, as I have said, the car wins for journeys like this in the UK.

I'm glad for you that your particular train journey is convenient for you but I don't ever envisage the need for myself to travel from Preston to Brussels and back at any time in the near or far future so that journey detail is somewhat irrelevant to me.

Rob.

 

[fran1]

If one can plan rail journeys 4 weeks in advance of unexpected events then all well and good, as I have said, the car wins for journeys like this in the UK.

I'm glad for you that your particular train journey is convenient for you but I don't ever envisage the need for myself to travel from Preston to Brussels and back at any time in the near or far future so that journey detail is somewhat irrelevant to me.

Rob.

It was a distance and time comparison between 2 journeys, yours being 5.5 to 7 hrs by rail.

 

[robd]

It was a distance and time comparison between 2 journeys, yours being 5.5 to 7 hrs by rail.

Ahh yes! point taken, sorry.

It does seem incongruous that a rail journey involving travel to a foreign country, albeit a near foreign neighbour to the UK but not joined by land should take less time than a relatively straightforward journey within the UK. Something "not quite right wrong" is occurring here methinks!

Rob.

 

[AlanBradbury]

I can leave Brussels at 18.56 euro time and be in Preston for midnight including 3 or 4 pints or 1.5 hours in London.

Four pints of beer would put you well over the blood/alchohol limit for driving in the UK, in fact little more than one pint would do so. The limit is 80 Mg of alchohol per 100 millilitres of blood (.08 percent in US terminology), and you can in fact be busted below that limit too incidentally, since any alchohol intake is regarded as 'aggravating' in legal terms. The limit equates to about one and a third pints of average lager (aka a pint of Carling or some such is about all you can legally get away with, and even that willl be detrimental to your driving ability). Drinking and driving is for assholes, just don't do it, you may very well kill someone, and possibly yourself too; nobody needs a drink that badly, have a drink when you get there if you have to.

And incidentally, I'm not against alchohol, I've just got in from a night in the pub as I type this, but I went there and came back on a bus, and saw my buddies off in a taxi. Like airline pilots, 24 hours from bottle to throttle is my rule, and I suggest you adopt the same thing, and especially on a long distance drive.

Al

 

[fran1]

Four pints of beer would put you well over the blood/alchohol limit for driving in the UK, in fact little more than one pint would do so. The limit is 80 Mg of alchohol per 100 millilitres of blood (.08 percent in US terminology), and you can in fact be busted below that limit too incidentally, since any alchohol intake is regarded as 'aggravating' in legal terms. The limit equates to about one and a third pints of average lager (aka a pint of Carling or some such is about all you can legally get away with, and even that willl be detrimental to your driving ability). Drinking and driving is for assholes, just don't do it, you may very well kill someone, and possibly yourself too; nobody needs a drink that badly, have a drink when you get there if you have to.

And incidentally, I'm not against alchohol, I've just got in from a night in the pub as I type this, but I went there and came back on a bus, and saw my buddies off in a taxi. Like airline pilots, 24 hours from bottle to throttle is my rule, and I suggest you adopt the same thing, and especially on a long distance drive.

Al

Alan, I'm using the train.

 

[wholbr]

Ahh yes! point taken, sorry. It does seem incongruous that a rail journey involving travel to a foreign country, albeit a near foreign neighbour to the UK but not joined by land should take less time than a relatively straightforward journey within the UK. Something "not quite right wrong" is occurring here methinks! Rob.

Hi Everybody.
Norwich to Plymouth, described in the robd quote as a relatively straightforward journey. Well, as you have London in the middle of the route I would certainly not describe it as straightforward whether travelling by road or rail.

By rail it would be Norwich to London's Liverpool Street station and then (if you do not have any luggage) by tube to Paddington station. There are several Tube lines you could take from Liverpool Street, either the Hammersmith line which is direct or I would preferably take the central/district line which brings you on to Paddington station adjacent to the platforms where the Plymouth/Bristol services normally depart. Then it would be a straight through HST service to Plymouth either via Castle Cary or Bristol with departures approximately every 30 minutes on all days.

However, the overall journey with the exception of the underground would not be too bad and you would have plenty of time to read, relax, have several cups of tea or coffee and let the train take the strain. But let's have a look at what it would take to do that journey by road.

First it would be down the A11 and then onto the M11 not be easiest of roads at the best of times. Then anticlockwise around the M25 with the notorious section between Watford and the M4/Heathrow Junction which on any day of the week is a leading contender for Britain's biggest car park. You then have all the pleasures of driving along the M4 out of London in those wonderful 60 to 70 mph traffic jams which suddenly come to a stop at junctions such as Stevenage and Reading shredding your nerves until past that point.

Fairly easy-going then (hopefully) until the motorway approaches North Bristol. You then have all the separate interchange junctions with the M32, M49, M5, M48. At this time of year on a Saturday it usually takes over one and a half hours from the city of Bath turnoff to the Weston-super-Mare junction for that approximately 25 mile section and with all the roadworks going on this year and for the next three years it is taking much longer as normal

You then have the pleasure of the continuous stop-go M5 (on Saturdays) all the way to Exeter followed by the notorious A38 Holden Hill section with typically a broken down car and caravan obstructing you at least once or twice, and then at last Plymouth. Can I suggest that if the foregoing it is a holiday journey you are definitely going to need it when you get there.[LOL]

The above would be for a normal holiday Saturday. You could of course decide to travel during the week but then the M25 and will be even worse than it is on a normal summer Saturday. Or you could travel at night, but then you have all the HGV trunking vehicles on the motorways and not many people would wish to undertake 350 miles of night driving. There is also the problem that your accommodation would not be available when you arrived in the morning.

Along with all the foregoing we have not considered the weather. There is definitely nothing worse than driving on Britain's motorways in pouring rain with all the spray and the impossibility of seeing much more than the vehicle in front of you. Oh yes Robd the above is why so many of us decided to take the train even with the extra cost and why passenger rail growth is over 10% year-on-year in Britain today

Bill

 

[robd]

Hi Everybody.
Norwich to Plymouth, described in the robd quote as a relatively straightforward journey. Well, as you have London in the middle of the route I would certainly not describe it as straightforward whether travelling by road or rail.

By rail it would be Norwich to London's Liverpool Street station and then (if you do not have any luggage) by tube to Paddington station. There are several Tube lines you could take from Liverpool Street, either the Hammersmith line which is direct or I would preferably take the central/district line which brings you on to Paddington station adjacent to the platforms where the Plymouth/Bristol services normally depart. Then it would be a straight through HST service to Plymouth either via Castle Cary or Bristol with departures approximately every 30 minutes on all days.

However, the overall journey with the exception of the underground would not be too bad and you would have plenty of time to read, relax, have several cups of tea or coffee and let the train take the strain. But let's have a look at what it would take to do that journey by road.

First it would be down the A11 and then onto the M11 not be easiest of roads at the best of times. Then anticlockwise around the M25 with the notorious section between Watford and the M4/Heathrow Junction which on any day of the week is a leading contender for Britain's biggest car park. You then have all the pleasures of driving along the M4 out of London in those wonderful 60 to 70 mph traffic jams which suddenly come to a stop at junctions such as Stevenage and Reading shredding your nerves until past that point.

Fairly easy-going then (hopefully) until the motorway approaches North Bristol. You then have all the separate interchange junctions with the M32, M49, M5, M48. At this time of year on a Saturday it usually takes over one and a half hours from the city of Bath turnoff to the Weston-super-Mare junction for that approximately 25 mile section and with all the roadworks going on this year and for the next three years it is taking much longer as normal

You then have the pleasure of the continuous stop-go M5 (on Saturdays) all the way to Exeter followed by the notorious A38 Holden Hill section with typically a broken down car and caravan obstructing you at least once or twice, and then at last Plymouth. Can I suggest that if the foregoing it is a holiday journey you are definitely going to need it when you get there.

The above would be for a normal holiday Saturday. You could of course decide to travel during the week but then the M25 will be even worse than it is on a normal summer Saturday. Or you could travel at night, but then you have all the HGV trunking vehicles on the motorways and not many people would wish to undertake 350 miles of night driving. There is also the problem that your accommodation would not be available when you arrived in the morning.

Along with all the foregoing we have not considered the weather. There is definitely nothing worse than driving on Britain's motorways in pouring rain with all the spray and the impossibility of seeing much more than the vehicle in front of you. Oh yes Robd the above is why so many of us decided to take the train even with the extra cost and why passenger rail growth is over 10% year-on-year in Britain today

Bill

I suggest you read it again Bill - Northwich to Plymouth, a journey undertaken by myself, by road, many times in the past, including some Saturdays in peak holiday season, without any undue stress or problems.

I can't think of a scenario in which I need to travel from Norwich to Plymouth and back in my life ever occuring.

Incidently, it's not a holiday journey, it's to visit a friend who is terminally ill, hence the spontaneous, unplanned nature of the journey.

Rob.

 

[fran1]

wholbr,
Northwich (cheshire) not Norwich (norfolk),
Driving at night is an absolute pleasure as opposed to battling with speed crazed half wits during the day.