UK: Freight train lengths and empty coaching stock

[cjlear]

Couple of questions.

1. Freight train length - I know the usual maximum is 750m unless restricted by shorter loop lengths on the timetabled run. What is considered to be the normal or usual number of wagons / train length for MGR, container and mixed?

2. Empty coaching stock. In New Zealand we used to have the "carriage shunt" which would go out on Saturday night and collect all the stock left at outer suburban stations from the last outbound Friday and Saturday services, and bring them back into the terminal coach sidings for cleaning/checking on the Sunday prior to being made up for the first outbound services on Monday morning. The Auckland carriage shunt made quite a sight, with a single loco struggling up the banks with up to 30 darkened coaches. Is there a UK equivalent, and if so, would the empties be brought back as individual trains or collected by the one train en route?

 

[magickmaker]

From what I know, or at least suspect, carriage shunts aren't overly common on the British Rail. This comes from the number of "Carriage" or "Coach" yards at larger stations. Rather than dumping carriages at outlying stations, it's more common for them to be brought back on the trains and stored in specific carriage years.

Edit:

I just spoke with a friend of mine who works for the underground (District Line.) He passed on this information.

Coach "shunts" as you call them have become less and less common with the proliferation of EMU and DMU trains. Prior to this, it was still an uncommon sight, but it did happen. Typically one or two "Dutch" locomotives would pick up the stock from outlying stations and return them to the main terminal coach yard.

In the case of the District though, once a train goes out of service, the empty unit is brought back to the depot to be cleaned and turned before the next shift. He suggested that the same is done for DMU and EMU units on the main lines.

 

[cjlear]

Thanks for that. I'm thinking back to the 70s and 80s before everything became MUs.

Cheers
Charlie

 

[magickmaker]

I think even then it'd still be something of a rare thing. Like I said, most major stations have coach yards. It's somewhat easier to just drag the coaches back on the train, as opposed to having to dedicate a locomotive or two to go around picking them up. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but you catch my picture.

 

[stovepipe]

In the 1970s there was a daily train which returned the stock of various parcels trains from York back to Kings Cross on the ECML. It also included some passenger stock as a few of the outward parcels trains carried seated accomodation. It left York at around 4pm and loaded up to 15 vehicles during the week, and 20 on Saturdays - some 630 tons and 1200 feet long.

Other ECS workings were often associated with Summer Saturday excursions.

MGRs started in 1965 and were around 20, 26, 30 or 34 HAA-type wagons depending on what was hauling it and which colliery. As time went on they generally got longer. Freightliners come as fixed 4-car sets. The normal maximum was 20 wagons, at least in your period of interest. Another long train I remember was the Fly Ash trains to Peterborough (ECML), which were 48 Presflos plus brake vans. Mixed goods trains could be up to 50-60 short wheel base wagons, but these were much less common and often much shorter by the end of the 1970s.

 

[Konni]

Hi,

I don't know whether this is going to help you, but recently I came across a set of railway regulations for Germany of 1875. It was the first set of regulations issued after foundation of a unified german state in 1871 and binding for all railway companies in Germany.

It said, that the overall length of trains must not exceed 150 axles (or 75 two axle cars). Passenger trains were not to exceed 100 axles. On account of their low speeds miltary trains and freight trains transporting passengers too were allowed a maximum of 120 axles.

Cheers,

Konni

 

[airtime]

Hello cjlear, hope you are well,

With regards to container wagon trains (FFA's and FGA's), the modern trains (EWS, Freightliner) usually consist of either 12 or 24 container wagons (fully and half loaded), but they can go as long as 32 container wagons in length, (half loaded) but only in rare cases.

Most other freight trains in the UK mainly consist of 24 wagons (small wagons MEA, MFA, YGB Seacows, HEA, HBA and so on), and the Network rail ballast train (JNA Wagons) and other long open wagons (MBA, MCA, MDA, MOA and so on) usually only have around 15 wagons in length.

Long tankers (TEA) usually appear in consists of around 12 to 15 wagons in length.

Hope the above helps

Joe Airtime

 

[nexusdj]

Each route in the UK has a maximum length laid down for trains in SLU's (standard length units , 1 unit = 21 feet or 6.4008 metres in new money).
It varies from route to route based on the lengths of available sidings , loops , platforms and the distance between signals .
It's no good sending a train of 100 SLU's down a branch line where the run round loop at the end can only accommodate 50 SLU's .
These maximum SLU lengths can be overridden at the discretion of the Network Rail controllers where an oversize train will not impact on other trains .

Other factors to take into account are the maximum loadings in weight for a train based on the available power from the loco and the gradients , curvature and maximum axle weight of the routes that the train needs to run over .

Carriage stock : Empty workings are known as "ECS" in the UK and do operate though not as extensively as they did in the 70s and 80s . The Replacement of most of the loco hauled passenger trains by Multiple units put paid to many as the lack of the need to run round stock or re-engine the train allows more time to "Sweat" assets by running more services .
Since privatisation track access for any train or Light engine movement has to be paid for so company's seek to maximize there revenue by operating as many services as possible with paying customers inside .

 

[JackDownUnder]

All very interesting but I have been trying to determine which sidings were used for storage of carriages overnight/for cleaning/for maintenance etc. excess of info on engines, engine sheds etc but not for carriages. my particular interst is NER & LNER.

 

[grms]

All very interesting but I have been trying to determine which sidings were used for storage of carriages overnight/for cleaning/for maintenance etc. excess of info on engines, engine sheds etc but not for carriages. my particular interst is NER & LNER.

It would depend on the location. A lot of London termini and other major centres had dedicated carriage sidings that were usually located a few miles back up along the main line. This is from memory and the names and locations could change down through the years, so it is all open to correction, but for Waterloo it was Clapham Junction, for Kings Cross - Hornsey, for Paddington - Old Oak Common, for Newcastle - Heaton, for Edinburgh - Craigentinny. Local pilots (usually smaller and/or locomotives) would trip the carriages from the termini to the carriage sidings as required.

 

[stovepipe]

and for York (NER) it was Clifton just north of the station and represented in TS12 ECML.

 

[stagecoach]

Did fimd this http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums...Euston-Downside-Carriage-Sidings-LON-Feb-2010

 

[cjlear]

Thanks very much guys, some great info here.

 

[furnessvale]

Hello cjlear, hope you are well,

With regards to container wagon trains (FFA's and FGA's), the modern trains (EWS, Freightliner) usually consist of either 12 or 24 container wagons (fully and half loaded), but they can go as long as 32 container wagons in length, (half loaded) but only in rare cases.

Most other freight trains in the UK mainly consist of 24 wagons (small wagons MEA, MFA, YGB Seacows, HEA, HBA and so on), and the Network rail ballast train (JNA Wagons) and other long open wagons (MBA, MCA, MDA, MOA and so on) usually only have around 15 wagons in length.

Long tankers (TEA) usually appear in consists of around 12 to 15 wagons in length.

Hope the above helps

Joe Airtime

Perhaps I can update the above information.

TEA bogie tanks (100 tons) are typically in trains in excess of 20 wagons and many are now 30 wagons hauled by a single class 60 loco.

Freightliner trains using 60ft long bogie wagons normally have 22-26 wagons up to a maximum of 30.

Most other unit trains use 90-100tons GVW wagons and will normally load to 1500-2500tons trailing weight.

Lighter trains, eg automotive carriers, are limited by length restrictions (normal max 750 metres). This can result in trains up to 50 two axle wagons although several trains use 11 x WIA 5 sets resulting in 55 wagon trains.

2 axle wagons are max GVW 45-50 tons and again every effort is made to maximise the load. For example, trains of 36 x 2 axle cement wagons regularly pass my house.

HTH

George