TrainzDev.com - Should Auran axe it?

[Smileyman]

Hi guys.

I've seen plenty of people saying how it's too quiet over at TrainzDev.com, and that it's not really worth having any more, and my experience over the last couple of months since coming back into the Trainz fold seems to back this up.

First off, the Wiki does not have anywhere near the amount of information it should have by now, considering that it was set up for TS2009 originally.
Before anyone says it's up to the public to fill up the Wiki, those willing to fill the Wiki need to be told how to use the new TS2009/2010 features in detail by Auran before they can add it to the Wiki.

As it is, content creators have to go by mostly trial and error, and they must either get fed up with trying or by the time they've cracked it, they really can't be bothered with adding it to the Wiki.

Secondly, the Auran presence over there is just as bad as it is over here, but aren't Auran supposed to be there to help develop?
I don't expect Chris to be able to have a presence over here and there (I'd prefer he was there if anywhere though), as he's already giving up some of his spare time here (he was on today, Saturday!).

But what about the others?
TS2010 Credits list the following:

Programming:
Chris Bergmann
James Moody
Terry Palmer
Steve Halliwell

Art:
Rob Shaw

Apart from Chris, how often do the others post?

Why doesn't James post any more?
He's exactly the sort of person who could pass on the relevant information to the community (Coder and modeller).
And have the other 2 ever posted on either forum?

And why doesn't Rob jump in and pass on relevant info when it's requested?

If there was enough of a presence on the TrainzDev forum from those people, the content creators would discuss it over there, those threads would be viewable to anyone wanting to know about the specific subject, and eventually the Wiki would fill up with step-by-step tutorials.

As it stands, there are plenty of unanswered questions over there, going back many, many months.
BTW, this question has already been asked over there, about a month ago I think, but it didn't get an answer. :wave:

Seriously, and this is for content creators only please, does Auran need to give TrainzDev the attention it needs and deserves, or should they pull the plug?

Answers on a postcard please (or just post here).

Smiley.

 

[WindWalkr]

I've seen plenty of people saying how it's too quiet over at TrainzDev.com, and that it's not really worth having any more, and my experience over the last couple of months since coming back into the Trainz fold seems to back this up.

I wouldn't disagree. It served it's purpose (providing public access during the redevelopment effort that was TS2009) and while a lot of the information on the forums may still be useful to people, that doesn't merit keeping it alive as a forum forever.

First off, the Wiki does not have anywhere near the amount of information it should have by now, considering that it was set up for TS2009 originally.

I'd disagree on two points here:

* The Wiki is not part of TrainzDev any more.
* The Wiki now contains roughly the same amount of information as the CCG, and is continuing to grow daily. It's a lot more accurate than the CCG. It is, admittedly, more in a reference manual style than a "how to" guide, but we're working to improve the accessibility for new users.

Before anyone says it's up to the public to fill up the Wiki, those willing to fill the Wiki need to be told how to use the new TS2009/2010 features in detail by Auran before they can add it to the Wiki.

We've taking care to document those features in detail ourselves. What we would love help with is filling out the "help" sections and "how to" sections which present information that many people already know.

As it is, content creators have to go by mostly trial and error, and they must either get fed up with trying or by the time they've cracked it, they really can't be bothered with adding it to the Wiki.

Some do, some don't. Certain people have gone out of their way to provide helpful info on the wiki.

Secondly, the Auran presence over there is just as bad as it is over here, but aren't Auran supposed to be there to help develop?

No? It's a community site. We make sure to read all the posts and reply when we have something beneficial to share. We're not "supposed to be there", but we are there.

Apart from Chris, how often do the others post? Why doesn't James post any more?

Not as much, James is active on the trainzdev signalling forum and Terry is active on the DLS forum here. Rob doesn't post much for his own reasons, and Steve isn't really part of the main Trainz programming team, although he does assist us from time to time. He doesn't have the trainz-specific experience to be really useful with the type of questions you guys ask.

cheers,

chris

 

[johnwhelan]

It has some interesting information in the existing posts but I agree the amount of suggestions does seem to have dried up.

Cheerio John

 

[Smileyman]

Thanks for answering Chris.

I wouldn't disagree. It served it's purpose (providing public access during the redevelopment effort that was TS2009)

Well, that's one of the most disappointing posts I've read in quite some time.
I thought that TrainzDev was supposed to be there for content creators.
The fact that it was there just to help develop TS2009 is a little short-sighted.

* The Wiki is not part of TrainzDev any more.

Well, again, I thought that TrainzDev was a permanent feature of Trainz, and that the Wiki was part of that package.

* The Wiki now contains roughly the same amount of information as the CCG, and is continuing to grow daily. It's a lot more accurate than the CCG. It is, admittedly, more in a reference manual style than a "how to" guide, but we're working to improve the accessibility for new users.

So, if I was to ask you to direct me to the detailed sections on getting a normal mapped asset into Trainz or setting up all aspects of seasonal assets, you'd be able to give me the link to the page in the Wiki? (Bear in mind that I have a lot of experience in normal mapping for 3D rendering, and it's just the Trainz-specific details or recommendations I need).

What we would love help with is filling out the "help" sections and "how to" sections which present information that many people already know.

As I've already said, you need to provide information to the public before they can contribute to the Wiki.
And it's the stuff that people generally don't know that you need to put out there, like all the new features of TS2009/2010.
Scrambling around the TrainzDev forums for titbits that you might have divulged in scattered conversations isn't providing this information, and is very frustrating.
Especially when you find the same questions you're asking, being asked by someone else, only to discover they didn't get an answer either.

No? It's a community site. We make sure to read all the posts and reply when we have something beneficial to share.

That may have been true while it was useful to TS2009, but it's not the case now.
There are many unanswered questions over there, that you have the information for, most of it simple little things that would get the content creator on his way.

We're not "supposed to be there", but we are there.

See above answer.
It's just not true now that TrainzDev has serviced its purpose.

Not as much, James is active on the trainzdev signalling forum and Terry is active on the DLS forum here. Rob doesn't post much for his own reasons, and Steve isn't really part of the main Trainz programming team, although he does assist us from time to time. He doesn't have the trainz-specific experience to be really useful with the type of questions you guys ask.

Well, that sort of confirms my thoughts.
No reason why any of them (apart from Steve maybe) couldn't post over at TrainzDev if they have the answer and none of the others have posted it.

Chris, I don't want you to think that I expect all you guys to give up all your spare time for our questions, because we all go above and beyond for our jobs from time to time, and there is life outside the job.
But if specific questions were answered clearly on the TrainzDev forums by you guys, and discussed with you by creators in that thread, not only would the thread be useful reading for anyone, but it would more than likely result in a tutorial appearing on the Wiki as a result.

I guess it all comes down to what I thought TrainzDev was for, and what it appears it was for in reality.

I can't help but think that (once again) Auran are missing a great opportunity.
TrainzDev should be used for content creation discussions for all future versions of Trainz, as well as present.
I can see no reason why it wouldn't be.
I really can't.

It's almost as if (once again) someone in charge had the great idea about TrainzDev (and it was a great idea), only to be dropped by the next person in charge.
I can't honestly see why TrainzDev isn't seen as an integral part of Trainz.

Baffling.

Smiley.

 

[al_sa]

I definately think the Dev forum should stay, for what would replace it? I found many good comrades to talk and learn to and from there. It definately needs to stay as what it is today, and more for the future versions of Trainz.

 

[NikkiA]

I definately think the Dev forum should stay, for what would replace it?

A new subforum on here? It'd keep things organised better probably.

My problem with trainzdev is that the site often fails to let me log in, even though I'm supplying the right username and password, it's almost as if the site is subject to the same unreliable-web issues as the DLS (it's not/wasn't running on the same server is it?)

 

[VinnyBarb]

Hi guys.

I've seen plenty of people saying how it's too quiet over at TrainzDev.com, and that it's not really worth having any more, and my experience over the last couple of months since coming back into the Trainz fold seems to back this up.

First off, the Wiki does not have anywhere near the amount of information it should have by now, considering that it was set up for TS2009 originally.
Before anyone says it's up to the public to fill up the Wiki, those willing to fill the Wiki need to be told how to use the new TS2009/2010 features in detail by Auran before they can add it to the Wiki.

As it is, content creators have to go by mostly trial and error, and they must either get fed up with trying or by the time they've cracked it, they really can't be bothered with adding it to the Wiki.

Secondly, the Auran presence over there is just as bad as it is over here, but aren't Auran supposed to be there to help develop?
I don't expect Chris to be able to have a presence over here and there (I'd prefer he was there if anywhere though), as he's already giving up some of his spare time here (he was on today, Saturday!).

But what about the others?
TS2010 Credits list the following:

Programming:
Chris Bergmann
James Moody
Terry Palmer
Steve Halliwell

Art:
Rob Shaw

Apart from Chris, how often do the others post?

Why doesn't James post any more?
He's exactly the sort of person who could pass on the relevant information to the community (Coder and modeller).
And have the other 2 ever posted on either forum?

And why doesn't Rob jump in and pass on relevant info when it's requested?

If there was enough of a presence on the TrainzDev forum from those people, the content creators would discuss it over there, those threads would be viewable to anyone wanting to know about the specific subject, and eventually the Wiki would fill up with step-by-step tutorials.

As it stands, there are plenty of unanswered questions over there, going back many, many months.
BTW, this question has already been asked over there, about a month ago I think, but it didn't get an answer. :wave:

Seriously, and this is for content creators only please, does Auran need to give TrainzDev the attention it needs and deserves, or should they pull the plug?

Answers on a postcard please (or just post here).

Smiley.

A very good range of questions/observations here and the answers by Chris are somehow disappointing. So, we as content creators are supposed to keep the DevWiki going with new informations etc. and as you point out:

How can we if we do not know most/some/any ways to implement this for TS09, let alone for TS10. It is no good to say this Dev Forum had been set up for TS09, what about present and future versions of TS or whatever this might be called in future?

As said, no disrespect towards Chris, as he does the answering in the Dev Forum on his own free time but one would have thought as AURAN does not make their own models for the present or new versions of TS (some few examples they supplied forTS09 excepted) and rely on us content creators to do so, it would be in AURAN's interest to give us all necessary information and knowhow to do so.

Why haven't they?

Or why do they do this in such a way that it is so frustrating and cumbersome to get any snippets/information needed (if at all) for the new way of creating to do this? Someone said in a previous post/thread/answer this information about normal mapping being used was available since TRS04. This might be true to some extent, if one only KNEW HOW TO DO THIS.

Many of us content creators, like me, did not know, hence I (and I guess some others) were stumbling along blind and had to find out the many ways of implementations needed by trial and error as said above, often the information of doing so was not available, was buried under tons of trivialities, hard to find (a snippet here, another snippet there like in a jigsaw puzzle) or not being addressed in the DevForum at all.

Sure, some issues were addressed there (thank you Chris) but even now browsing through some past questions in the Dev Forum will show how frustrating this was not only for me but to others as well.

To get back to the OP's question (does Auran need to give TrainzDev the attention it needs and deserves, or should they pull the plug?) I say YES to the first part! AURAN needs to give us content creators all the help they can muster, not in an ad hoc fashion as is at present but in a similar manner as previous Constructors Guides had been done and then and ONLY then will many of the present content creators who would like to create for the new versions come on board as I feel quite a few gave up creating for the new way as instructions SIMPLY weren't there or were so hard to find or getting hold of.

I would have given up creating for TS09/10 a long time ago but I love Trainz, persevered with trials and errors of getting there with normal mapping etc. and I would like to see Trainz improved the way it should be and deserves to be.

But this takes 2 of us (AURAN and content creators) to make this possible, if AURAN relies only on us to find the ways of how to create content now and NOT telling everyone proper of how to do this, I can only see failure ahead and I guess this is not only me but even blind Freddy would see that.

My 2 cents worth

VinnyBarb

 

[leeferr]

VinnyBarb

Perfectly said, I couldn't agree with you more.

Mike

 

[WindWalkr]

I thought that TrainzDev was supposed to be there for content creators.
The fact that it was there just to help develop TS2009 is a little short-sighted.

Not really, as we have perfectly serviceable (which is more than you can say for the joomla site, really) forum here on the official Auran site. Why force people to log in to two different sites?

The initial advantage of TrainzDev was in separating discussion of the "next version" product from the "current version" product. Now that the "new version" is well and truly arrived, there's no reason that we should want to keep that separated from the community.

So, if I was to ask you to direct me to the detailed sections on getting a normal mapped asset into Trainz or setting up all aspects of seasonal assets, you'd be able to give me the link to the page in the Wiki? (Bear in mind that I have a lot of experience in normal mapping for 3D rendering, and it's just the Trainz-specific details or recommendations I need).

Searching the wiki for "normal map" and "normal mapping" gives the following links:

* http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php5/Normal_map
* http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php5/Getting_Started_with_Normal_Mapping
* http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php5/.texture.txt_Files
* http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php5/M.tbumpgloss

Does that help?

As I've already said, you need to provide information to the public before they can contribute to the Wiki.
And it's the stuff that people generally don't know that you need to put out there, like all the new features of TS2009/2010.

And as I've already said, we're taking care of this. All of the TS2009 features and a good chunk of the TS2010 features are already documented, and we're making solid progress on the rest.

Scrambling around the TrainzDev forums for titbits that you might have divulged in scattered conversations isn't providing this information, and is very frustrating.

Exactly why I don't place a lot of value in those forums. The answers may be there, but the tools to find them are not.

But if specific questions were answered clearly on the TrainzDev forums by you guys, and discussed with you by creators in that thread, not only would the thread be useful reading for anyone, but it would more than likely result in a tutorial appearing on the Wiki as a result.

True enough, but the question is how much time do we want to burn per week on answering questions, especially when those questions have been answered many times before. Every minute we spend on the forums is one less minute that we can spend improving the documentation, or fixing bugs, or adding new features. I'm not arguing that we should stop our contact, but I don't think it's realistic for us to personally answer every question that someone might have, especially when it's a question that many creators already know the answer to.

TrainzDev should be used for content creation discussions for all future versions of Trainz, as well as present.
I can see no reason why it wouldn't be.
I really can't.

How about- the main forum has better software, better maintenance, more users, more integration, and the major reason for keeping TS2009/TS2010 development separated is long gone?

chris

 

[NikkiA]

...
How about- the main forum has better software, better maintenance, more users, more integration, and the major reason for keeping TS2009/TS2010 development separated is long gone?

And by utilising the forums you already have, you can save time/money by only having one forum codebase to worry about.

Although that point may well be what you were implying by 'better maintenance'.

It only makes sense, given that the discussion earlier was that Auran needs to focus it's money and time on the future.

 

[Scitimar]

And as I've already said, we're taking care of this. All of the TS2009 features and a good chunk of the TS2010 features are already documented, and we're making solid progress on the rest.

chris

Then lets hope people take advantage of the time you've spent and the time you're spending .

Nah .. never going to happen , it seems you're also required to re-invent the wheel and produce a bunch of models and one-on-one hand holding tutorials for those that can't use google , visit one of the many sites that deal with gaming content for usefull info , press the F1 key on the keyboard for their chosen 3d/2s applictations or read the typeface on a computer screen .

Looking forward to reading more complaints about your lack of help , I'm sure there's lots to come.

Sci

 

[Smileyman]

Not really, as we have perfectly serviceable (which is more than you can say for the joomla site, really) forum here on the official Auran site. Why force people to log in to two different sites?

I don't know!
Why did you do it in the first place? :hehe:
You could have easily added a section to this site, with hidden password-protected areas for beta testers etc.

I don't really have a problem with the forum software over there.
It's the Wiki I'm not fond of.
Maybe when it's tidied up a bit it won't be so bad.

BTW, one of those links you posted did give me enough Trainz-Specific info to get bump-mapping working, but it does demonstrate my dislike for the current Wiki...or it demonstrates my lack of confidence in it's contents....or both!

And as I've already said, we're taking care of this. All of the TS2009 features and a good chunk of the TS2010 features are already documented, and we're making solid progress on the rest.

WOAH!!!
Hold the Phone!!!

When you say we, who are you referring to, and in what manner is it being documented?
Are you saying that you guys at Auran are filling in the missing info on the new features of 2009/2010 on the Wiki??
If that's the case, then why on Earth didn't you make it public knowledge?
My frustration is that nothing "seems" to be happening, and if it's just a matter of you guys finding the time to do it, then I'm more than happy to wait.
As long as it "is" going to happen one way or another.

It would be a shame to see TrainzDev go, but it's quite clear that it wasn't set up for the purposes that I thought it was.

I think all content creators really want is the information they need.
Creating content is time consuming as it is, but if you add misinformation and trial & error into the mix, the work-flow grinds to a halt, and patience runs out.

You know, I've been battling with Auran for information of one sort or another since TrainzScript was introduced in Trainz 1.0 SP3.
It was like finding the Holy Grail when we managed to scrounge a new bit of scripting info from them, and the battle goes on! :hehe:

I'll keep an eye on the progress of the Wiki over the next month or two before I decide whether to support TS2009/TS2010 content-wise.

Smiley.

 

[Scitimar]

Are you saying that you guys at Auran are filling in the missing info on the new features of 2009/2010 on the Wiki??
Smiley.

http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php5/Special:RecentChanges

Not sure how much easier it can get ..... smoke signals maybe ??

.

 

[WindWalkr]

I don't know!
Why did you do it in the first place? :hehe:
You could have easily added a section to this site, with hidden password-protected areas for beta testers etc.

Because it wasn't protected, wasn't hidden, was open to anyone who cared to join, and we didn't want it to confuse the general populace on the main forums.

BTW, one of those links you posted did give me enough Trainz-Specific info to get bump-mapping working, but it does demonstrate my dislike for the current Wiki...or it demonstrates my lack of confidence in it's contents....or both!

Okay.. so.. the fact that you lack the confidence to either (1) read through the docs that we provide, or (2) enter a term or two into the search box, is a fault in our documentation?

I'll be the first to admit that we've got a way to go before it's perfect, but that's perhaps taking it a bit far.

Are you saying that you guys at Auran are filling in the missing info on the new features of 2009/2010 on the Wiki??

Yes, this has been in progress since the creation of the wiki. We've talked about it on a number of occasions. As Sci notes, there's even a link on the wiki sidebar which tells you what's been changed recently.

I think all content creators really want is the information they need.
Creating content is time consuming as it is, but if you add misinformation and trial & error into the mix, the work-flow grinds to a halt, and patience runs out.

Couldn't agree with you more. That's why we're taking a much more clinical approach with the new documentation. As readable as the CCG was, one of its weaknesses was that it only explained "how to create an asset", which is great for new users, but contained very little detail about the underlying systems or how everything tied together. We're working to make sure that the wiki addresses both sides of this.

You know, I've been battling with Auran for information of one sort or another since TrainzScript was introduced in Trainz 1.0 SP3.
It was like finding the Holy Grail when we managed to scrounge a new bit of scripting info from them, and the battle goes on! :hehe:

True enough. But you're aware that Andi wrote up a massive explanation of the TrainzScript syntax and libraries on the wiki, right? We've helped out here and there but it's largely his work.

cheers,

chris

 

[backyard]

So who's shutting down whom...?

Folks, you have to remember that whoever has left employment from Auran had completed all their assignments...

That's the way it is with gaming...not a retirement stay with anyone by no means...

Why would you expect a huge payroll when the development was made to allow 3rd party assets, scripting, etc?

The ones that have contributed greatly to the history of Auran Trainz development, also have payware websites & lay low counting the spare change they can collect...

And someone decides to post a thread about why they hate payware...?

I know Auran Trainz has sufficient help to do the job needed, but that would stop if everyone went away....

Arguing with the hired help that work to further develop Auran Trainz don't get nothing done....

If more content creators took a serious mind(MANY have) since the release of just TRS2004, they would have made enough money using gmax & Paint Shop Pro to afford 3ds Max, Photoshop, a website to do business, etc.

3rd Party involvement with TS2009 won me a complimentary copy of the game, though I had already bought my copy...

TS2010 came along in a point in time where I found a better than default installation method...so I had to use a voucher to get the new edition, because I had none of the problems others had...and the privilege to participate was handed to me, with username & password....

Go back to posting screenshots...please:hehe:

 

[paulhobbs]

If more content creators took a serious mind(MANY have) since the release of just TRS2004, they would have made enough money using gmax & Paint Shop Pro to afford 3ds Max, Photoshop, a website to do business, etc.

I'll assume you are joking here as you can't be serious. Max costs 5000 Euros in Europe and that's a lot more than 3500 Bucks..

Paul

 

[PEV]

I'll assume you are joking here as you can't be serious. Max costs 5000 Euros in Europe and that's a lot more than 3500 Bucks.

Paul,
I couldn't agree more. 3dsMax is very expensive here in Australia and that also assumes that you can get the version you want. The agents seem happy enough to flog the lastest version which may or may not work with the exporters.

I have been testing using my tools on GMax exports to bring them up to lastest standards.. It's mostly working though I notice that the animations don't work fully correctly in TRS2006 whereas they work fine in TS2010. (reflections are not handled corrrectly, as far as I can see) The mesh structures have a number of differences, to allow animations to work entirely in the graphics processor. Results so far are encouraging.

 

[Scitimar]

Paul,
I couldn't agree more. 3dsMax is very expensive here in Australia and that also assumes that you can get the version you want. The agents seem happy enough to flog the lastest version which may or may not work with the exporters.

I see you've run into Autodesks method of ensuring continuing sales ... at the release date of each new version of 3DS Max the old version is no longer available for purchase .. IOW > totally obsolete ..... makes Aurans support policy seem pretty fair don't it

Give the guys at StormFX a try if you're interested in 3D apps and don't forget to pick up a Sub .

Sci