Vuil_Sekreet
Member
Yawn. Found the ignore button, Huzzah!
Trainz 2022 Needs to Move Forward—Not Backward
- Thread starter jwyant01
- Start date
It won't be wrench for those who, should the next version have Surveyor 2.0 only, therefore choose not to buy it.
leader2302
Member
Moving Forward is not creating a user interface that only a computer programmer can figure out how to use.
S2.0 is simply too difficult and not user friendly at all.
If it takes a year or more for veteran route builders to figure out how to use S2.0, it is clearly a step backward.
The S1 user interface is far superior due to ease of use and simplicity.
S2.0 actually looks more like a earlier, more primitive UI. Sort of like MS-DOS.
What NV3 really needs to do is import all the functions of S2.0 into the far easier to use S1.0 user interface.
Now that would be truly moving forward !!!
S2.0 is simply too difficult and not user friendly at all.
If it takes a year or more for veteran route builders to figure out how to use S2.0, it is clearly a step backward.
The S1 user interface is far superior due to ease of use and simplicity.
S2.0 actually looks more like a earlier, more primitive UI. Sort of like MS-DOS.
What NV3 really needs to do is import all the functions of S2.0 into the far easier to use S1.0 user interface.
Now that would be truly moving forward !!!
derznovich
Active member
Figured out S2 in a couple of sessions. I’m not a programmer and I’m not young.
I use S1 for bulk replace, changing junction radius, smoothing ground and straightening track. Others S2 is easier and faster, even with the clunky drop down menus. Dialing in position and orientation using the info box is a key part of the workflow for me. Couldn’t live without the gizmo tool for fine adjustments, or Ctrl-copy-drag for creating parallel tracks and splines. S2 interface is overall good except for those drop downs and the lack of key functions mentioned already.
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In my case it was after 20 years of using S1.0 that was the hurdle I had to overcome. I had exactly the same problems (and in some cases still do) with changes to other software where I had become very "comfortable" in how the original UI worked - the MS Office Ribbon took me ages of "curs'n and cuss'n" before I finally mastered it - it seems so simple and obvious now. Likewise the more recent changes to the GIMP user interface still force me to access their online help on how to do something simple. If you have been doing something one way for years then any change can be seen as a disaster.
Case in point. It took me much longer but now I rarely go back into S1 - and the addition of new options to the S2 Bulk Update/Replace feature (currently in beta testing) may end that.
Looks can be deceiving. Would you regard Windows 3 as far superior to Windows 10/11 due to its greater simplicity?
I do not see how anyone could reach that conclusion or make that comparison.
Easy to say but I suspect that it would destroy S1. The best solution would be for N3V to retain Surveyor 1 as a legacy option for those who are unable or unwilling to make the change. This would be inefficient as the programmers would have to maintain two UIs even if only one of them (S2) was being advanced with new features.
justinroth
Well-known member
I'm slowly getting used to 2.0. AFAIK bulk replace requires 1.0 and also when placing splines in 2.0 they don't automatically settle on ground, unless I'm missing something? Big inconvenience when using weed splines.
nugget2225
Well-known member
I completely agree. Why wasn't the new interface an option, Instead of required. When i say required, At some point i assume S1 will be removed.
It is an option and is not required. Each time you restart Surveyor it will default to the last interface (S1 or S2) that you used.
Hi All
Unfortunately the tools provided in Surveyor 2.0 aren't compatible with the Surveyor Classic interface/core. For this reason we made Surveyor 2.0 a separate mode to Surveyor Classic so you can switch between the two as needed. Right now we are keeping both in Trainz to allow for this, in particular as there are some tools/functions that aren't yet in Surveyor 2.0; however moving forward we do intend for this to change, and with new features only being able to be edited/used in Surveyor 2.0 it is the primary focus for us. Already there are several features that cannot be interacted with in Surveyor Classic, including HD Terrain, Color Effect layers, and others that only have limited support or can be harder to use than in Surveyor 2.0 because those features were designed for Surveyor 2.0.
In particular the Surveyor 2.0 interface is intended to bring Trainz more in line with industry standards; whilst still maintaining a relatively easy to use interface. We understand it is different to Surveyor Classic, and for those used to classic it will take time to adapt; but the change is also necessary to add many new requested features to Trainz. The classic menus only have so much space in them, and being icon based any new options/features will take up even more space that isn't available... On the other hand, with the new anchor menus we can provide many more options over time for different tools without taking up as much space; but of course is now a menu based interface instead of tabs/icons. As an example, in the next Trainz Plus update, it allows us to provide the 'inspect baseboard' tool (to view, replace, and delete textures from baseboards) as part of the marquee tool's anchor menu; something that the Surveyor Classic interface simply cannot support.
We do plan to further improve the Surveyor 2.0 interface over time, along with many other improvements to Trainz, but of course this does take time to do. One of the advantages of the new interface is that we can add new tools, as above, without needing to rebuild the existing palettes and interfaces, they can easily be added as new palettes that you can show/hide or move as you need.
As mentioned above, it also meant we can bring Surveyor 2.0 closer to industry standards for interfaces, whilst keeping it relatively simple; but it is different (and would always have had to be different in all honesty) compared to classic, and hence those that jump across will need to take some time to familiarise themselves with the new tools, as they did with classic when they first started using it; the same for any tool set when starting out. Things like a single move tool/rotate tool (in our case, a 'combined' move/rotate tool in the 'fine adjust' tool) for all object types is the norm for most 'editors' in game engines; down to even those designed for secondary school kids to build games in, as well as modelling tools like 3DSMax and Blender. This means that people who have experience with multiple other game editors (or 3D creation tools) can jump into Trainz without as much of a learning curve, something we have seen comments and complaints on over the years.
Regards
Unfortunately the tools provided in Surveyor 2.0 aren't compatible with the Surveyor Classic interface/core. For this reason we made Surveyor 2.0 a separate mode to Surveyor Classic so you can switch between the two as needed. Right now we are keeping both in Trainz to allow for this, in particular as there are some tools/functions that aren't yet in Surveyor 2.0; however moving forward we do intend for this to change, and with new features only being able to be edited/used in Surveyor 2.0 it is the primary focus for us. Already there are several features that cannot be interacted with in Surveyor Classic, including HD Terrain, Color Effect layers, and others that only have limited support or can be harder to use than in Surveyor 2.0 because those features were designed for Surveyor 2.0.
In particular the Surveyor 2.0 interface is intended to bring Trainz more in line with industry standards; whilst still maintaining a relatively easy to use interface. We understand it is different to Surveyor Classic, and for those used to classic it will take time to adapt; but the change is also necessary to add many new requested features to Trainz. The classic menus only have so much space in them, and being icon based any new options/features will take up even more space that isn't available... On the other hand, with the new anchor menus we can provide many more options over time for different tools without taking up as much space; but of course is now a menu based interface instead of tabs/icons. As an example, in the next Trainz Plus update, it allows us to provide the 'inspect baseboard' tool (to view, replace, and delete textures from baseboards) as part of the marquee tool's anchor menu; something that the Surveyor Classic interface simply cannot support.
We do plan to further improve the Surveyor 2.0 interface over time, along with many other improvements to Trainz, but of course this does take time to do. One of the advantages of the new interface is that we can add new tools, as above, without needing to rebuild the existing palettes and interfaces, they can easily be added as new palettes that you can show/hide or move as you need.
As mentioned above, it also meant we can bring Surveyor 2.0 closer to industry standards for interfaces, whilst keeping it relatively simple; but it is different (and would always have had to be different in all honesty) compared to classic, and hence those that jump across will need to take some time to familiarise themselves with the new tools, as they did with classic when they first started using it; the same for any tool set when starting out. Things like a single move tool/rotate tool (in our case, a 'combined' move/rotate tool in the 'fine adjust' tool) for all object types is the norm for most 'editors' in game engines; down to even those designed for secondary school kids to build games in, as well as modelling tools like 3DSMax and Blender. This means that people who have experience with multiple other game editors (or 3D creation tools) can jump into Trainz without as much of a learning curve, something we have seen comments and complaints on over the years.
Regards
Good question. Also, how do you change the range for triggers and trackmarks in 2.0?
See here - How_to_Use_S20_Tools#Placement:_Set_the_Trigger_Radius_of_a_Track_Object
It also works with the Free Move and Fine Adjustment Tools
Make sure that the Grade setting in the Tool Options Palette is set to "- " (which means follow the ground height - highlight the value that is there and hit the Delete key), not set to 0% (which means flat) or to any other value.
Bulk replace with all the added options still works best in 1.0 but the latest beta version of 2.0 in Trainz Plus adds some (but not all) of those extra features
ZecMurphy
Community Assistant
There's two ways to do this.
First is to simply select the track, and then enter the desired grade into the 'grade' box in the Tools Palette. Note that it will apply the grade in the direction the track spline was placed.
Second is to first set the desired grade into the 'grade' box in the Tools Palette. Now select each length of track you want (try it with just 1 length to get a feel for it) using either the 'fine adjust' or 'free move' tool; then click the anchor menu on one of the spline points and click 'apply grade to this spline end point'.
If you select multiple sections, and the 'wrong' segment was selected last, simply deselect and reselect the spline segment you want to apply the grade from, then click the anchor menu on one of the spline points and click 'apply grade to this spline end point'.
Once you get the hang of it, you can do quite long sections (if needed) quite quickly; at least that's what I've found when using it.
Regards
Hi, I use TRS22 standard and S1.0 as I always have, S2.0 looks impressive. If things change for the new version of TRS and S2.0 is included I won't be disappointed, I'll learn to use it. I'm very happy with this sim, I've been playing for years and I'm really looking forward to the next installment.
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justinroth
Well-known member
Bazinga! I recently discovered that smooth ground is effected by the brush size. I've had issues with adding track that seems to do its own thing height-wise. I suppose I need to learn some more.
Yes, you can find the details at Free_Move:_Spline_Object_Context_Menus and a few other places in the How_to_Use_S20_Tools Wiki Page.
| Smooth Ground Under Selected | smooths the height of the ground under the selected spline to match its set height. If multiple spline segments have been selected then the ground under all the segments will be smoothed to their height. The size of the area affected will depend on which has the greater value: the width of the spline OR the Tool Options Palette Radius setting. Does not work for endpoints |