traction current changeover

[georgewcato]

I am trying to get a emu to change from overhead AC to third rail DC. I have tried pantograph rule and what is happening is when the emu stops at the station the panto comes down as I want ,but when the train moves off the panto comes back up and off the train goes. Any answers to over come this problem .Cheers George

 

[sniper297]

Possible, but long and convoluted.

Chicago Metro 3,<kuid:522774:100015>
Chicago Metro 3 sparks 10,<kuid:522774:100012>

Got a first class ticket you can install those and look at the trains and schedule library. An AI train which has a pantograph/pole attachment or two will not move without raising one or the other poles. The workaround I did for that was to create a clone of each car, designate it AI only, then moved the front pole down inside the body of the car and set auto-create 0 so it's invisible. AI has the pantz 1 command he raises the back pole, give him the pantz 2 command and he drops the rear pole and raises the front pole. Since the front pole is invisible and there's a static non functional visible pole attachment on the front, it looks like he has both poles stowed.

Only way to do it, since the AI will happily obey pantz 0 for both poles down, but the second he starts moving he's gonna give himself pantz 1 since it's hard coded that anything with a panto attachment has to have one panto up to move as an AI train.

 

[sniper297]

Naturally I can't find the old threads to link to, so lemmee toss in a couple new pics which might explain it better.

AI trains with pantographs or poles are hard coded to have at least one sticking up when they're moving, no way around that. CTA had dual powered cars when I was a kid, 3rd rail on the L tracks, overhead wire at grade level.

I moved the attachment point for the front panto down inside the body, set the attachment to auto-create 0 so it would be invisible either up or down. Then I copied the mesh and textures for the pole into the car, made another attachment point for the "fake" visible pole, which is non animated and always seen as down and stowed.

The player version has no special attachments since the player CAN drive with both poles down, that's the player version with both poles up.

That's the AI version with both poles up, since the front pole is a fake, if the AI is running with the front pole up and the back pole down it looks like he has both poles down.

To illustrate this I set the real front pole to auto-create 1, normally that's invisible, but here it is inside the car.

Clumsy workaround, but AFAIK there's no script which will force an AI to run without at least one panto up.

 

[georgewcato]

Many thanks for your reply ,but I think my term EMU has not travelled across the pond well.In England we have mainline trains that are formed of carriages in fixed sets of 3,4 and 6, some have motors and they can run of 25000 volts ac catenary then when they get to areas where the use of a 3rd rail 750 volts dc ,they switch from the overhead power source and collect the current from the outside electric rail on the track .This is done whilst the train is at a stop at that station on the boundary of the 2 systems .This is what I am trying to do with my route is to simulate a route in london where the train goes into deep level tunnels built in the early 1900's that are 11ft in diameter going to the center of the city underground all the way.

 

[sniper297]

EMU = Electrical Multiple Unit, same in YankeeDoodlish. :wave: That is what I'm talking about, these elevated/subway cars were designed to use either overhead wire or outside 3rd rail pickup. From WWII on, each car had a control cab at one end, and when they took delivery of a new set the first thing they did was to remove the back couplers, turn half the cars around facing the other way, and drawbar them together in "married" pairs. So each 2 car set had a coupler and control cab facing outwards at both ends, however you coupled them together they could be driven in either direction.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=om48-UUY0Kw

First part of that video shows them running with the rear pole up, second part is with the invisible front pole up so it looks like they're running with both poles down. Note that the spark effects shift from the back pole to the 3rd rail pickup shoes when the back pole is down, that's a script. But AFAIK any AI train with a panto attachment has to have one pole up whenever it's moving, no way around that other than an invisible pantograph or pole.

 

[JCitron]

Many thanks for your reply ,but I think my term EMU has not travelled across the pond well.In England we have mainline trains that are formed of carriages in fixed sets of 3,4 and 6, some have motors and they can run of 25000 volts ac catenary then when they get to areas where the use of a 3rd rail 750 volts dc ,they switch from the overhead power source and collect the current from the outside electric rail on the track .This is done whilst the train is at a stop at that station on the boundary of the 2 systems .This is what I am trying to do with my route is to simulate a route in london where the train goes into deep level tunnels built in the early 1900's that are 11ft in diameter going to the center of the city underground all the way.

We have those too up here in New England.

The old New Haven Railroad had locos that would switch from their overhead lines to 3rd rail when they entered into Penn Station in New York. Their famous FL9s went from diesel to 3rd rail just outside of New Rochelle, NY.

Up where I am in the Boston area, we have the Blue line on the MBTA. This line goes from 3rd rail in the subway tunnels and changes to catenary when the trains exit the tunnel on the tracks out to Suffolk Downs.

http://youtu.be/oAll70fVD1g

John

 

[sniper297]

When I was a kid the interurbans did that too, the North Shore in particular was the coolest - started on the elevated line downtown Chicago loop, went onto its own right of way and shifted from 3rd rail to overhead wires, then ran around the streetcar tracks in Milwaukee.

This is probably a better example, last part shows a train raising the poles as it descends the ramp to grade level, then lowering the poles again to shift back to 3rd rail power entering the subway tunnel. Besides it has some cool British guys singing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eckNfZItBI

 

[Jananton]

Hmm, the switching between overhead wire and third rail feed is something that was troublesome for the Traction motors for the Laurel Line I'm building as well.

As sniper297 I found that a.pantX attachment points are allways used by the AI to put, the poles in this case, up. The only solution I found was to use other names, a.trolleyX in this case, for the attachment points and handle the control of them by script. After much puzzling this works wel now in cab mode.

For driving under AI control the next step will be to create a rule attached to a trackmark where the traction motor will be instructed to stop and raise or lower its pole at those locations where the feed switches between both types.

Greetings from nighttime Amsterdam,

Jan

 

[Mick_Berg]

Many thanks for your reply ,but I think my term EMU has not travelled across the pond well.In England we have mainline trains that are formed of carriages in fixed sets of 3,4 and 6, some have motors and they can run of 25000 volts ac catenary then when they get to areas where the use of a 3rd rail 750 volts dc ,they switch from the overhead power source and collect the current from the outside electric rail on the track .This is done whilst the train is at a stop at that station on the boundary of the 2 systems .This is what I am trying to do with my route is to simulate a route in london where the train goes into deep level tunnels built in the early 1900's that are 11ft in diameter going to the center of the city underground all the way.

Sounds like you are doing Drayton Park, right? If so may I suggest you do it so that it can be added to the ECML.

Mick Berg.

 

[georgewcato]

Yes in a nut shell ,I grew up there and the finsbury park to moorgate was always somethink of a mistary to us kids why it was there and when we saw the stock transfer once aweek be dragged up the incline by LT battery locos to go to highgate depot it was a vast change from all the steam stuff

 

[JCitron]

Yes in a nut shell ,I grew up there and the finsbury park to moorgate was always somethink of a mistary to us kids why it was there and when we saw the stock transfer once aweek be dragged up the incline by LT battery locos to go to highgate depot it was a vast change from all the steam stuff

The old Boston Elevated, which became the Boston Metropolitan Transit Authority (MTA), used to do that too. They would run the Cambridge Subway cars (today's Red line) over the streets to the car barn in Everett. I was too young to remember seeing this, but the old cars had trolley poles on the front of them for this reason. This practice is long gone now with the building of the Cabot Street shops in South Boston near South Station.

John

 

[Mick_Berg]

Yes in a nut shell ,I grew up there and the finsbury park to moorgate was always somethink of a mistary to us kids why it was there and when we saw the stock transfer once aweek be dragged up the incline by LT battery locos to go to highgate depot it was a vast change from all the steam stuff

I lived right next to the line in Highgate. Oddly enough, before that I lived right next to the line at Alexandra Palace. First time I saw the tube stock transfer, I thought they had started the tube service to Ally Pally! No such luck.

I used to go on the Northen City Line quite often, they ran stock even older than the 1938 IIRC.

I hope you have downloaded my battery locos!

Mick Berg.

 

[georgewcato]

Yes I ve got your battery locos ,I was born in ashburton grove ,hornsey rd and my garden backed onto the railway and it was steam all day long and gresley teak coaches. The northern city line had for a time had met stock with oval windows at the ends then there was the early 1920's tube stock with the center door rail and guards doors that where hinged that you could open with the handle and that great big louvered compartment next to the drivers cab with all the electrical controls.Did you live in dukes ave near the little bridge at ally pally.george PS still have not managed to lower the panto and keep it down while the train moves off

 

[sniper297]

You can't do it fiddling with the session itself, read what we wrote. It's hard coded into the game that the AI train will always raise one or the other panto if it has a panto attachment when it gets any kind of command to move - drive to, navigate via, or whatever, move train = panto up to the AI. I worked around it with an invisible panto so it raises the invisible panto and moves off, it looks like it's running with both down because the one it has up is invisible. Janaton says he did something tricky with a script, i have no idea how that works, but one way or the other if you want any electric railcar or EMU which has a panto attachment to run with the pantos down sometimes, you have to do that with the railcar itself since there's nothing in the session programming that will make an AI run without at least one panto up.