This thing is Awesome!!! Is it available in Trainz??
- Thread starter Wyonate
- Start date
The model is unfinished, needs some work on handling the products.
The cars are a rotating version of my ore cars, you cannot use standard cars, but it is possible to attach a simple standard car as a mesh to a rotating base model for the purpose. It gets hard when they have running numbers and other functions that then refer to the attached mesh car and not the base model, causing errors.
The major problem is getting the cars to stop accurately, this is not really consistently possible under AI. You can put in low speed signs but the stopping position depends on the number of locos, number of loaded wagons (mass) and speed. It looks strange when the car does not center on the rolling drum. The video shows a train combination and speed that works, but other combinations will stop at different positions. For this reason I had not been happy enough to release it.
Ian
The cars are a rotating version of my ore cars, you cannot use standard cars, but it is possible to attach a simple standard car as a mesh to a rotating base model for the purpose. It gets hard when they have running numbers and other functions that then refer to the attached mesh car and not the base model, causing errors.
The major problem is getting the cars to stop accurately, this is not really consistently possible under AI. You can put in low speed signs but the stopping position depends on the number of locos, number of loaded wagons (mass) and speed. It looks strange when the car does not center on the rolling drum. The video shows a train combination and speed that works, but other combinations will stop at different positions. For this reason I had not been happy enough to release it.
Ian
Are there any prototype unloaders where a locomotive is used to move the cars through the unloader? From what I've read most seem to use a "train positioners", usually rack or wire-rope driven, to move cuts of cars. There's several varieties of these devices -- example of one below:
Example of another type here.
Yet another here.
And this one is pretty cool -- an HO scale model of coal rotary dumper being fed cars by a working train positioner.
Illustration showing general arrangement of a car-dumper yard and coal pier that uses a "barney" (photo earlier in the thread) as a car-positioner: via Google Books
Example of another type here.
Yet another here.
And this one is pretty cool -- an HO scale model of coal rotary dumper being fed cars by a working train positioner.
Illustration showing general arrangement of a car-dumper yard and coal pier that uses a "barney" (photo earlier in the thread) as a car-positioner: via Google Books
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Hi Ian:
Yes - thats exactly what we had in mind. Instead of doors that open and close on our RCD's it would have clamps that come down and hold the car in position on the tracks while rotating.
We explored the idea of rotating a "fake" car but decided it had too many limitations.
1. Your limited to a car that looks like the fake. We wanted a method that would work with any traincar (hopper or gon).
2. How to (temporarily) get rid of the real traincar.
A. Move it underground on an invisible transfer table but you can't unload it.
B. Move it to an underground track via a script program but it can only be done if there is a traincar on the underground track as its required to couple to it (ditto coming back). It should be possible to unload it tho.
C. Moving the fake might be noticable even if the fake is done like a load to a hopper and moved in 1 keyframe (1/30 of a second).
D. The fake should probably be a little bigger then the real traincar to help hide the "swap".
Great looking gadget tho - hope you get it to work (and will tell us how, lol).
Ben
Yes - thats exactly what we had in mind. Instead of doors that open and close on our RCD's it would have clamps that come down and hold the car in position on the tracks while rotating.
We explored the idea of rotating a "fake" car but decided it had too many limitations.
1. Your limited to a car that looks like the fake. We wanted a method that would work with any traincar (hopper or gon).
2. How to (temporarily) get rid of the real traincar.
A. Move it underground on an invisible transfer table but you can't unload it.
B. Move it to an underground track via a script program but it can only be done if there is a traincar on the underground track as its required to couple to it (ditto coming back). It should be possible to unload it tho.
C. Moving the fake might be noticable even if the fake is done like a load to a hopper and moved in 1 keyframe (1/30 of a second).
D. The fake should probably be a little bigger then the real traincar to help hide the "swap".
Great looking gadget tho - hope you get it to work (and will tell us how, lol).
Ben
I've seen several rotary dumper photos and all were set up to dump more then 1 hopper at a time, Our Rotary Car Dump 13 is twice as long as 1 thru 12 and will dump 1 to 4 cars (one at a time). The script file counts the cars and delays the drum from rotating back to its starting position untill the last car is empty (apparently Trainz will only allow 1 car at a time to empty). Ians is obviously designed for 1 car at a time but once he gets it working properly there should be no reason he can't make a version for 2 or more at a time.
The basic problem in making these is code in Trainz. Its setup to allow certain actions on certain kinds of items only - not all kinds. A traincar can be moved up and down but only on a transfer table. A traincar can be emptied but only by an industry. Apparently there is no way to do both on the same item in Trainz. The real world has no such restrictions.
Ian - don'tcha just hate it when the real world gets in the way of what you want to do, lol?
Ben
The basic problem in making these is code in Trainz. Its setup to allow certain actions on certain kinds of items only - not all kinds. A traincar can be moved up and down but only on a transfer table. A traincar can be emptied but only by an industry. Apparently there is no way to do both on the same item in Trainz. The real world has no such restrictions.
Ian - don'tcha just hate it when the real world gets in the way of what you want to do, lol?
Ben
Hi Guys,
As you say, Trainz does have limitations, we have a love hate relationship with AI. the imprecise stopping under AI for different lengths of trains would not please everyone. Multiheader trains stop for each of the locomotives and I found that that cancels the unloading process under AI (the unloading icons in the bottom taskbar vanish after the third loco has stopped on the industry, then it will not unload the cars, I had to put in a series of unloading commands to make it work).
The traincar consists of an invisible base mesh, that is animated to do the rolling during unloading. The ore cars is attached to this mesh and follows the animation. Center of rotation is about the couplers. The visible track in the drum is part of the unloader mesh , invisible track is used across the industry model.
Another issue is shadows, now required in TS12, they cannot be animated, so they need to be well hidden inside the rotating car, or made invisible. The cars obviously can only be unloaded in this type of facility, if you tried to unload on any other normal unloader, the cars would still rotate. They can be loaded with a moving load function (as in the video) without rotating.
I did have an earlier longer version of the unloader, that rotated two cars at a time, but that was even more unreliable.
I guess you could make the unloading animation raise the car up then rotate it for unloading, an invisible shadow would be used, the lifting track would be part of the unloader model. I use this type of animation for my aircraft and helicopters.
I may have another look at the model, but with the issues, users might be disappointed with the variable performance. Ben is correct, it would be nice if any standard ore car could be used without a lot of fiddling.
Ian
As you say, Trainz does have limitations, we have a love hate relationship with AI. the imprecise stopping under AI for different lengths of trains would not please everyone. Multiheader trains stop for each of the locomotives and I found that that cancels the unloading process under AI (the unloading icons in the bottom taskbar vanish after the third loco has stopped on the industry, then it will not unload the cars, I had to put in a series of unloading commands to make it work).
The traincar consists of an invisible base mesh, that is animated to do the rolling during unloading. The ore cars is attached to this mesh and follows the animation. Center of rotation is about the couplers. The visible track in the drum is part of the unloader mesh , invisible track is used across the industry model.
Another issue is shadows, now required in TS12, they cannot be animated, so they need to be well hidden inside the rotating car, or made invisible. The cars obviously can only be unloaded in this type of facility, if you tried to unload on any other normal unloader, the cars would still rotate. They can be loaded with a moving load function (as in the video) without rotating.
I did have an earlier longer version of the unloader, that rotated two cars at a time, but that was even more unreliable.
I guess you could make the unloading animation raise the car up then rotate it for unloading, an invisible shadow would be used, the lifting track would be part of the unloader model. I use this type of animation for my aircraft and helicopters.
I may have another look at the model, but with the issues, users might be disappointed with the variable performance. Ben is correct, it would be nice if any standard ore car could be used without a lot of fiddling.
Ian
Hi Ian:
So your actually rotating a real traincar? I'd love to know how you do that. I tried setting up dummies and attachment points like a transfer table (a.r.traverser/a.track0a) but the traincar never moved even tho the track it was on moved.
Yes - we understand rotating fake track and having cars actually cross on invisible track. Tis how our RCDs are set up.
Our idea would be under manual control (no AI) so some of the problems you've encountered wouldn't apply but that doesn't mean it would be easy.
Hadn't thought about shadows but then ours are enclosed.
All in all open RCDs would be fantastic if we can get them to work correctly but the deck seems to be stacked against us.
Ben
So your actually rotating a real traincar? I'd love to know how you do that. I tried setting up dummies and attachment points like a transfer table (a.r.traverser/a.track0a) but the traincar never moved even tho the track it was on moved.
Yes - we understand rotating fake track and having cars actually cross on invisible track. Tis how our RCDs are set up.
Our idea would be under manual control (no AI) so some of the problems you've encountered wouldn't apply but that doesn't mean it would be easy.
Hadn't thought about shadows but then ours are enclosed.
All in all open RCDs would be fantastic if we can get them to work correctly but the deck seems to be stacked against us.
Ben
After mulling it over today, I came to the conclusion that things should be dumped the way Mother Nature intended -- through one's bottom! Quite likely this whole car tipping thing is just another passing fad, much like CB radios were in the 80s and the Internet was in the 90s.
So, today* I've decided to go old school... by assembling Port Necessity, an automated coal port whimsically fashioned from various doohickeys & whatnots found on the Trainz Download Station.
* It was too cold and snowy outside to do anything else.
So, today* I've decided to go old school... by assembling Port Necessity, an automated coal port whimsically fashioned from various doohickeys & whatnots found on the Trainz Download Station.
* It was too cold and snowy outside to do anything else.
Actually the largest exporting port of coal is in Newcastle, New South Wales, which reached capacity of 114 million tonnes in 2011. The fossil fuel comes from nearby Hunter Valley region. By lucky coincident the coal is already dug out, all that needs to be done is to load it on trucks and carry to the harbor, using 200 km railroad which acts as a gigantic conveyor belt. It would be nice to model one of the harbor coal terminals in Trainz.
Another challenging prototypes for loading / unloading - iron ore mine in Mount Newman and Port Headland in Western Australia. Trains 2 miles long. So much to do, so little time!
Another challenging prototypes for loading / unloading - iron ore mine in Mount Newman and Port Headland in Western Australia. Trains 2 miles long. So much to do, so little time!
Thanks for the video. It's really hard to get close enough without trespassing to make such pictures especially when I use a wheelchair.
I live between Sandusky Docks and Ashtabula Docks but not as close as some of the others here.
In the video it looked to me that coal was being loaded into a lake freighter and not an ocean going ship. If so, wouldn't the destination be either a US or Canadian port? (Or Coal Plant?)
I'd love to see someone build a model of this.
How does this compare with NS's Lambert Point facility?
And isn't the measure of coal reserves measured by the amount that's considered burnable or so called Clean Coal? Isn't there a lot of coal that no longer is considered burnable because of high sulfur or other noxious contents?
Sorry I have so many questions. I'm still learning.
Thanks for the thought fodder!
I live between Sandusky Docks and Ashtabula Docks but not as close as some of the others here.
In the video it looked to me that coal was being loaded into a lake freighter and not an ocean going ship. If so, wouldn't the destination be either a US or Canadian port? (Or Coal Plant?)
I'd love to see someone build a model of this.
How does this compare with NS's Lambert Point facility?
And isn't the measure of coal reserves measured by the amount that's considered burnable or so called Clean Coal? Isn't there a lot of coal that no longer is considered burnable because of high sulfur or other noxious contents?
Sorry I have so many questions. I'm still learning.
Thanks for the thought fodder!
Thanks. Glad you liked it.
I named it after Fort Necessity, the fort that Col. George Washington cobbled together, using what materials he could quickly find, during the French and Indian War. No, prototypical it isn't! But for kicks and giggles, I put the route up for downloading on this page. (Sorry. It's TS12 only.) All dependencies are on the DLS.
Here's something I found interesting about the Sandusky port.
Below is a image grabbed from a Google Map view of the Sandusky port. Note the blue marker at the bottom, which marks the location of the first two coal ports that predate the current port by a good number of years. The 2nd coal port was completed in 1914. I haven't yet found a date for when the 1st port was established. EDIT: Found the date. The 1st coal pier was built in 1906. The 3rd coal pier that project into the bay was constructed between 1937 and 1939. During that construction, a long loop channel was dredged out to permit the largest of lake ships to enter the bay.
Below is a drawing showing the plan and elevation of the Pennsylvania Railroad's "new" port at Sandusky, circa 1914. If you compare the plan with the Google Map aerial view (above), at the location of the blue marker where the two "fingers" of land extrude, over a bit to the right you can see the (ballasted) outline of where the old yard tracks were once located. You can read the 1914 article about the "new" Sandusky port that the drawing (below) is from at Google Books.
In terms of size, the present-day port certainly dwarfs the two older ports!
And lastly, here's a video of rotary coal dumper that I found rather interesting, largely because it was filmed in 1897. It's from the Thomas Edison films catalog and was filmed at the Erie Railroad's docks at Cleveland, Ohio.
[video=youtube;Z0br89U8K-U]http://www.youtube.com/v=VEXqXShx9Po[/video]
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