This Needs to Stop

Hi Falcus,

Good technical points here... Yes, TS12 will only see up to 4GB maximum of RAM as this is a 32-bit application. Windows 7 and up will allocate this much to any 32-bit application no matter how much RAM is installed on the system. This is part of the 32-bit APIs used in he operating system, and allows these applications to co-exist on a 64-bit platform. T:ANE is going to be a full 64-bit application so it can work with as much RAM as the system can throw at it and will therefore have many, many more resources than we are using now.

Yes, databases will take a beating for some time. I've seen that with big MS_SQL and Oracle databases. They have built-in data recovery through transaction logging so they can "playback" and restore missing parts. This as you said can go on just for so long before something gets totally wrecked. In our case we see lock ups with the application, which if you read my post I noted well. The fact that my data corruption was caused by ailing hardware eventually destroyed some assets. I've been able to go through my non-built-in items by opening them for edit and then closing them again. The ones I couldn't open due to errors, or could be committed again, were replaced with fresh ones.

Windows Vista, actually Windows NT 4.0 and up as I should say, has journaling built into it to help recover data. This is kept in the Master File Table (MFT) which is divided into two parts - directories and files. Windows also does a lot of caching with such processes as disk access and directory structure building. This is why it's not good to turn off or reset systems while the drive is being written to. Things can really go down hill really fast if this is done one time too many. The current iterations of the operating system; Windows 7 and Windows 8.xx have another layer of resiliency built into it. This too actually started with Vista as well, but has been more refined. I believe this is what you were referring to, and this will eat up a ton of disk space. Every file that is opened and changed, is copied and saved to the volume store. This acts as a safety net and files can be restored should they be corrupted. Whether this is operating system-controlled or application controlled I don't know as I've never made use of this technology myself to find out.

The problem as you've noted is partly the database size, which grows exponentially as routes are installed. The ever constant search of dependencies brings more and more data down whether we actually need that or not. Combine that with our own activities, and we have pretty full hard disks very fast. This additional data does slow things down, and sometimes badly. To help mitigate this problem, I run regular drive defragmenting sessions as well as prevent the antivirus program from scanning and accessing the Trainz data folders. This latter process does help with the access due to less interference by the antivirus program on the data, and the defrag has helped considerably as well particularly when doing work in Surveyor and Content Manager due to the data manipulation as we search for content.

This however, doesn't solve the crashing which many of us have experienced. As we've all stated before, and have been through the mess, the best thing to do when Trainz is in a snit is to leave it alone and let it recover.

John
 
Hi all I have a problem with trainz Every time I go to start trainz it does a DATA BASE CLEAN UP I got home from work this morning
At 0700 and went to start Trainz and yes its done it again it is now 1445 in the afternoon and it still doing the database clean up
Why is this happening and how do I stop it so I can muck around with trainz before I go to work?
Thanks all
Chris Sullivan
NEW ZEALAND
 
Do you every close your computer before TADDaemon has finished? Ever force a shutdown via Task Manager? I can't remember the last time I had a database cleanup start except when I chose to do it. Even after adding and deleting content.
 
Falcus said:
I would also point out that nobody has mentioned system resources yet....

I have *newish* 3rd Gen Quad Core i5 running Win8, NO vid card, 8GB of Ram (of which Trainz can only ever use half being 32 bit as I understand things). Runs All aspects of Trainz very very well, until I try to load a few billion polys too quickly in surveyor in which case Trainz itself will crash to desktop (Im sure a vid car would fix this), but TadDaemon usually won't crash as a result. CM never crashes unless I'm eating lots of RAM with other programs, and I let CM run pretty much 24/7 even when I'm running TRS12 (For reasons below).
Click to expand...
The correlation between letting CM run for a long while and the lack of validation pausing was covered in depth in that We've been had thread. I even got John to stop shutting it down while surveying, which is a darn useful thing, any way you slice it. Like you, I generally let them run 24/7 and let power management make things snooze. That's far better for the critical hardware anyway. Chips and circuit boards fail most times because of thermal cycling--like an airliner shell experiences metal fatigue from cycling to high altitudes/low pressure and landing/high pressures. Unless I have a update scheduled, the computer is on, and any software I was working in, save the browsers. Better to cycle those and let them free their caches.

Finding an asset that way vice in the Surveyor tools can be much faster for starters... it gets better from there as you can grab a kuid list (resource in a spreadsheet or text editor) and make a filter (custom pick list) and use the filter in Surveyor for placement. Not as good as what we've asked for, but still a viable work around for not being able to save and import pick lists! // F

Falcus said:
In all this time, I've only run 3 DB Rebuilds, and never ... SNIP...

Also, IDK if its been said yet, though the clues have been posted already. The reason why TADDaemon and CM can be force quit for months on end and then suddenly stop can happen for a couple reasons.

1:You have now encountered a faulty-ish asset (Just enough to cause problems, not enough to send up big red flags, theres one asset I know of in particular that does this, and because it was frequently used about 5 years ago or so it keeps cropping up in my DB despite my best attempts to obliterate the little bugger whenever I find it) and it needs to be found and removed (Though the DB Rebuilds you all seem to be doing as punishment should fix this particular issue).
Click to expand...
Consider making a Special substitute asset--a big tall imposing clone of an office building or type that will really stand out as 'Just plain wrong' if the bugger shows up again. Edit that clone and add the troublesome asset to it's obsolete-table. If the skyscraper (Reskinned in purple polka-dots and Pink as that sexy nighty SHE should wear more often... <g>) shows... you've got the vaccine in place and can substitute using the replace asset tool. Have you checked the DLS Cleanup page to see if the asset's listed? Put in a ticket on it? // F

or
Falcus said:
2: (The more likely reason) Everytime you force quit your CM or your Daemon, you're playing roulette. As you do this, you're interupting DB management... Thats bad... Thats like hard powering down a computer running Windows2000 or earlier before Microsoft got really good
SNIP SNIP but those parts need re-read
So again, I would point out the questions:
What resources do you have for your Trainz Install to use?
How many resources is Trainz likely to need (IE how big is your DB)?
What are you doing to manage to those Resources for Trainz?

Hope this helps somebody, as even if it helps nobody, anybody could use it....
Thanks for reading if you have,
Falcus
Click to expand...
What he says...and those parts of his post need re-read!

Kudos! You clearly know what you're doing dude! // Frank
 
You might want to do an EDR to start

cvkiwi said:
Hi all I have a problem with trainz Every time I go to start trainz it does a DATA BASE CLEAN UP I got home from work this morning
At 0700 and went to start Trainz and yes its done it again it is now 1445 in the afternoon and it still doing the database clean up
Why is this happening and how do I stop it so I can muck around with trainz before I go to work?
Thanks all
Chris Sullivan
NEW ZEALAND
Click to expand...

See the Post on page #1 and read all of this thread carefully where advice and techniques are given ... and also that in that linked We've been had Thread carefully. Listen to Falcus' advice (bottom Page 1) and apply to your own practices. Martin, John, Justin, others, and myself let the computer have a long while to settle, IF WE SHUT IT DOWN AT ALL. That seems to be a good way to start. (You should do a manual restart after installing new software, and once a week, however! Point is MANAGE IT!)

Hardware wears out fastest when turned on and off. Set up a reasonable energy savings sleep and hibernate scheme in your computer Control Panel and also tame your auto-updates so YOU know when those happen, and can gate them when it is convenient for YOU. I never let Microsoft auto-update, nor all the many others things which stabilizes things--ALL must ask permission, excepting virus and anti-malware data updates. Good software will generally have a option to go out and check for updates, then inform you it needs done. Letting all the auto-update software run unmanaged is another good way to loose control and let confusion enter your life.

OTOH, if it's happening often, and you've let CM have it's day to loaf, you probably need to put a hiatus on downloading and changing data and vett your content systematically using the procedure (here on page 1) as a guide--save if booting CM, the implication can't be tied to a route or session, so you've got a more troublesome search. Set up a filter for all older content that is not built-in and systematically work your way through it. I prefer to archive old obsoleted assets, others delete them. Some others let them stay in place.

I've a suspicion, a notion, I'm better off than they are for archiving them leaves the data base index with a handle, but takes the asset from the local files structures. That means if I loose the whole assets.tdx, CM can re-reference the obsoletes and reconnect the dots with existing replacements. If they are gone, there would be no place for CM to start, but the DLS, and those which are from 3rd party sites then become problematic.

Can't prove that, but it's a 'professional suspicion'. Whatever you do, don't disable them, then delete them. I made that mistake once and am still recovering control over those 115 kuids! Last and on point, If you had CM running when you went to bed, it'd have been done at 7:00 am. When both Surveyor and CM are offline, the background validation process shuts down, then needs to restart from the beginning. If it's got a ToDo list, it needs the time to ToDo, so keep it up and see if things improve. If it doesn't PM me and we can have a go with a few other approaches. FYI, your 7:00am is my Noon, so Skype is an option, but start with an EDR and letting CM have a day to loaf if it needs time. Nuff said. // Frank
 
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If you normally set your computer to hibernate/sleep you will have remove the hibernation/sleep setting to never if you plan to perform any EDR/QDR. Failing to do so will stop/suspend your EDR/QDR.

John
 
Falcus said:
I would also point out that nobody has mentioned system resources yet....

I have *newish* 3rd Gen Quad Core i5 running Win8, NO vid card, 8GB of Ram (of which Trainz can only ever use half being 32 bit as I understand things). Runs All aspects of Trainz very very well, until I try to load a few billion polys too quickly in surveyor in which case Trainz itself will crash to desktop (Im sure a vid car would fix this),...
Click to expand...
Surprised that you haven't had more problems considering you don't have a dedicated video card but are relying on the built-in video chip instead. In the interests of clarity, what video chip in on your motherboard? You probably also don't have any dedicated video memory which explains the crashes from too many polys. The received wisdom is that that is asking for trouble.
 
Crashing Trainz and Content Manager lock ups are definitely related to data corruption. I have had one particular route that kept crashing in a certain place all the time. I suspected there was something wrong with the content on the route so I viewed dependencies and hid the built-in assets of which there were 2600 non-built-in assets. When I opened up the assets for edit, to verify the content with PEV's Tools, CM locked up and I ended up killing it with the task manager which is something I don't like to do. What I found was some corrupted assets, which I mentioned previously in this thread. Since the content was available on the DLS, I deleted the corrupted assets and redownloaded them again. In the end, due to the lockups, which did occur a couple of times, I ended up doing a QDR, however, the route now runs fine.

So if you have lockups or route crashes, check the data!

John
 
As a postscript to my earlier comments, after a couple of relatively carefree days using CMP in 49922 I decided to push back up to 61388. Big mistake... Thinking some desert scrub texture would look nice on my latest route, I entered a search string, clicked on an item to view the thumbnail and - lo and behold - instant white screen and nowt much happening. Following the advice of our sage experts I then did nothing, apart from open Task Manager where TadDaemon was frozen at 00 CPU and @136k memory. Left it while the missus beat me at Monopoly and we then got tea ready. Came back an hour and a half later and... still the whited out screen and 00 CPU and @136k memory in use. So here we go, Ctrl - Alt - Del, shut down TadDaemon and TrainzUtil, re-launch Trainz and another 20 minutes of my life wasted while the mandatory QDR runs. It is this that is more irksome than anything else, I only viewed one object didn't even download so why the chuff does it have to run through every item on my PC, each and every time this happens?

And, at the risk of repeating myself, this is the exact hardware, exact same level of assets installed as under 49922 whiere CMP runs without any issue. All I want is a few assets from the DLS for my route, for gawd's sake.
 
martinvk said:
Surprised that you haven't had more problems considering you don't have a dedicated video card but are relying on the built-in video chip instead. In the interests of clarity, what video chip in on your motherboard? You probably also don't have any dedicated video memory which explains the crashes from too many polys. The received wisdom is that that is asking for trouble.
Click to expand...

Intel R 6 Series/C200 Chipset Family Series 6. I believe thats what it is, I dug it out under the IDE ATA/ATAP listing in Device manager, where Im used to finding ALL display "devices" (Built-in or not) being listed under "Display", but I don't deal with Graphics Machinations overly much.

Yes, I am asking for trouble by not running a Vid Card, and I knew that going into it. I genuinely don't have the cash to get a vid card atm (Mostly because I would absolutely have to upgrade my Power Supply to do this, nor do I expect to be able to do this in the foreseeable future). However, so long as that trouble is as easy as keeping a mental note of areas to avoid on certain routes, it doesn't bother me that much. Honestly though, it doesn't crash that often, and even in places that *could* crash it, as long as I slow down before I get there and let it load at a more manageable pace, that will prevent most of those crashes to boot. The point I was trying to make before is all about resource management being a Possible avenue for alleviating problems.... And the reason I made that post is because I live it every time I DL another asset or Boot up Surveyor or Driver.... Management isn't about fun (Generally), or doing things because you're a megalomaniac, its so that you can accomplish things with some modicum of efficiency and maybe accomplish focused goals that you wouldn't otherwise be able to accomplish.... Further its a skill that many people I've met in my life distinctly lack....

Falcus
 
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Vern said:
As a postscript to my earlier comments, after a couple of relatively carefree days using CMP in 49922 I decided to push back up to 61388. Big mistake... Thinking some desert scrub texture would look nice on my latest route, I entered a search string, clicked on an item to view the thumbnail and - lo and behold - instant white screen and nowt much happening. Following the advice of our sage experts I then did nothing, apart from open Task Manager where TadDaemon was frozen at 00 CPU and @136k memory. Left it while the missus beat me at Monopoly and we then got tea ready. Came back an hour and a half later and... still the whited out screen and 00 CPU and @136k memory in use. So here we go, Ctrl - Alt - Del, shut down TadDaemon and TrainzUtil, re-launch Trainz and another 20 minutes of my life wasted while the mandatory QDR runs. It is this that is more irksome than anything else, I only viewed one object didn't even download so why the chuff does it have to run through every item on my PC, each and every time this happens?

And, at the risk of repeating myself, this is the exact hardware, exact same level of assets installed as under 49922 whiere CMP runs without any issue. All I want is a few assets from the DLS for my route, for gawd's sake.
Click to expand...

2 things I'd point out.
1: Force quitting
Force Quitting a program is never a "Good Idea". That said, sometimes its necessary. If the program is well and truly hung, particularly if it is so because it ran out of resources (Cough ahem), it won't be able to disentangle itself without outside help in the form of a Force Quit or a System Reboot. For it to Hang that severely, the only possible reason in my experience is that some function operating within it has eaten up all available resources to the point that the program is so busy looking for more resources it doesn't even get the chance to check to see if there are more resources to be had....

My advice here would be to start by Force Closing, doing the rebuild, and while its doing that, maybe start thinking about trying to manage your resources better (Do you have more then 4GB of Ram? Do you have a Late Model Vid Card? Were you running anything else in the background that might have been eating a bunch of resources? What amount of Ram/CPU usage was CM at, they are in fact different programs that are just made to work together, and there for both must be budgeted for, same with Trainz), or buying more resources for it to play with (Ram, Newer Vid Card, etc etc). Either way, knowing the difference between situations where its better to not Force Quit, and when TO Force Quit and risk the Database Rebuild can only help you make better managerial decisions. Further, everytime it happens, study what happened to cause the Hang up. Read the Jet Log, check the Event Viewer. If either mention an Error Number plug it into Google and see what it says.... This is simple PC Software Debugging. And yes, its probably outside of most user's comfort zone, but what would we rather be doing? Playing Trainz? Or posting our woes on the forums? The more information you gather, and the more aware you are of the issues that can occur and how to circumvent them, the more time you're going to have on the rails, its a simple, and undeniable fact....

2:
Ever Increasing Requirements.
Theres alot more resources around then just the size of your Database. And while I'd be kind of surprised to discover that the level of resource requirements between 49922 and 61388 would be that incredibly different, I do know that its happened before. The simple matter of how the game deals with real time resources for services such as Multi-player servers and Itrainz chat eat up more resources between versions. Further, its hard in my honest opinion to blame a single incident on a new version without more information.... Just because it rains this year after a new person moved to town doesn't mean its that person's fault it's raining.....

This said, my main point is that newer versions CAN come with slightly higher Resource requirements.... Be aware of it and plan for it. Trainz is 32 Bit so it can operate at a max of 4GB ram? Make sure you have 8... It asks for X amount of Vid Ram? Double that if you can, or like me invest in a CPU that doesn't even Sneeze when Trainz crashes.... Meeting requirements for any large resource eating program is a balancing act, and conducting day to day operations of such is a management task... If you don't want to deal with it, thats fine too, but Xbox doesn't have a Train sim program yet, and every other sim is in the same boat Trainz is, each with their differing issues, because we're asking something smaller then our bodies to create a world with the ability to be bigger then our Reality.... I think I'll cut the Machines some slack and do my best to help it along, and understand that if my Hardware setup is unable to accomplish something, then thats just as far as it will go.

Falcus
 
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I agree that killing an application is not a good idea. In fact it is generally frowned upon by most computer professionals as that only causes other problems later on since force quitting the program causes file handles to be left open since the proper shutdown process was not invoked while the program was running. Unfortunately, sometimes there is no choice in the matter as we've found out.

Yes, TS12 like its parents and grandparents is a 32-bit application. This means it will use no more than the 4GB of RAM allocated, and technically (mathematically) feasible with 32-bits. Having more RAM installed on a system does help if you're running a 64-bit operating system because the operating system can tuck out of the way while the 4GB slice of memory is allocated to the 32-bit application. The modern operating systems, such as Windows 7 and up, handle 32-bit applications natively and automatically do this without special drivers, command lines, or other patches. The reason is there is a 32-bit subset of code within these operating systems to allow this, and they will allocate 4GB chunks of memory as the emulate a 32-bit environment. Prior to this, such as in 64-bit Windows XP and in Windows NT4.0, this wasn't always possible due to how the code was written in the program. In the older applications, the operating systems used a different method which caused applications to crash unless they were written to run natively under the 64-bit operating system.

Sure running slower in built-up areas helps when there's lots of content in an area. This is sometimes necessary anyway if this is a yard or city because most trains don't go racing through a freight yard or station since these areas are usually at a restricted speed anyway. What's interesting is I was doing this way back under TRS2004!

The ever increasing resources is due to more complex models, and this is brought on by the ever increasing realism that people want with assets, animated industries, our lovely oversized Speed Trees, super realistic buildings, and super realistic train cars, people, and everything else. Keep in mind that even if something is not visible on a route for use, it's using up resources. Scripts and background processes are a big chunk of resources of an application.

We have to remember too, as having said what I just did here, we're currently still trying to run this newer content on an older software platform. This is akin to trying to put a Model T on Interstate 95 and drive it at 70mph. It just ain't going to do it as they say. It may run but not efficiently and probably crash. This also brings up another point, and that is stricter rules regarding LOD and error checking. As much as people complain about moving forward, this is also a requirement to make things work better. In many cases our beloved Build 2.0 models are not built to run efficiently meaning they lack LOD and more modern texturing methods. This is no fault of the model creators since they used the best methods, in most cases, which were available to them at that time. Since then both hardware and software has moved along so we now have to redo things to work better.

John
 
Martinvk, you spoke too soon...

As a matter of fact I have two versions, TRS MAC 1 and 2. They're just not registered, that's all. What I meant is that on an iMAC, none of the problems they are talking about above ever happen. Those sorts of things only happen on Windows PCs. With an iMac, you can force close an application anytime you want, shut the computer down by pressing and holding the power button, even pull the plug out, and it will automatically save what you were working on, close all applications properly and shut the computer down in the proper way, and it does all that in just a few seconds. Let's see a Windows PC do that.
 
NYCBlues said:
As a matter of fact I have two versions, TRS MAC 1 and 2. They're just not registered, that's all. What I meant is that on an iMAC, none of the problems they are talking about above ever happen. Those sorts of things only happen on Windows PCs. With an iMac, you can force close an application anytime you want, shut the computer down by pressing and holding the power button, even pull the plug out, and it will automatically save what you were working on, close all applications properly and shut the computer down in the proper way, and it does all that in just a few seconds. Let's see a Windows PC do that.
Click to expand...
Hello:

You should register your serial numbers so you can get access to the DLS and get support if you have any problems. You can register by going to the Auran homepage and logging into your Planet Auran account using the same details as the forum.

Cheers

Ryan
 
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