This is Trainz 2004, but maybe better discussed here?

Cascade, I thought you had polar bears in the igloo to keep you warm !!!!! :eek:

Now friends, I could not make the crash to desktop happen today (Columbus Day), not even on the 'famed' Yorkshire Plains and its' clones that I have!

Room temperature was 68 F (I cannot spell Farenheit, Farenhiet, Faren , Farin-height Oh I quit!!! ) (there were spelling errors on all of these!)

Answer to John Whelan, Nope, I am not using any UPS backup unit.

clam1952, I think your idea of checking things with software is a good idea. I'd be a little worried about stressing the memory for too long a period. Somebody warned me about that. I don't know how you check the hard disk, is it with scandisk or something similar?

I have a ATI video card front end called ATI Tool which can keep increasing the GPU speed until artifacts start showing up. But I'm a little scared to do that.

Maybe someone could talk me into doing something.

OK Fahrenheit ! Darn it all !
 
Last edited:
Step one buy a UPS CyberPower at newegg aren't a bad price, be careful if you look at APC their newer models may not work with the newer power supplies.

Cheerio John
 
The problem occurred yesterday with the room temp at 70. No mention of DirectX9 in the error message this time, but Class Hardware: Reason Access Violation. I couldn't get TC1&2 to crash.

Shane, I have not tried OpenGL, but that's so easy, I will do it!

Next I will try a lightly used older 128-bit 256mb video card (ATI) that used to work with both Trainz.

Next perhaps I will do a chkdsk (I found out that XP does not have scandisk). But I'll have to find out if it has a non-destructive mode first. Do you have to check only the C: partition or also the D: where both Trainz are located? Perhaps it checks the whole drive.

I'm very concerned about heating up and destroying memory or the video card, but that will come last. i will look up memory testing programs.

I also thought about trying each 512mb memory module separately. I know that Trainz used to run halfway decent when I had only one stick.

I suppose I will try to reinstall 2004 without losing my World folder. I will move it. Maybe copy one to both drives.

If all else fails, I'll start thinking about some new computer parts to stuff into my old case.

One unrelated question I have. How does a read-only session get saved by me? I have a Yorkshire Plains session (under the original route) where I see locos that I have placed, must have been long ago. I'm sure because I placed a US loco on it just for the heck of it.

Now, I cannot place anything more into it. It tells me it is a read-only session. I have no idea how a read-only session gets made?

Thanks. I will try all those steps above and report here.
 
Shane's advice was almost the answer. This morning, early, I switched to OpenGL. The room was at 70 degrees. The three 2004 routes I ran passed the closing cleanly test, and even felt snappier when switching between drivers and also at shutdown of the routes. Very snappy and solid.

In the afternoon with the room at 75 degrees , the GHOO Megaroute Final crashed after I clicked the surveyor red dot. Class:Hardware Access Violation. Yorkshire Plains AJS (my version) closed out properly. Gilby & Wallace closed out very fast after the Surveyor red dot.

So, one crash using OpenGL. Not bad but I never have had crashes.

After the 2004 tests, I ran the DB-Projekt 1970 route in Classics 1&2. this is probably the heaviest route I have on my computer. It always takes very long to get going, and even time switching between trains. It ran well, closed after the Surveyor red dot, out to the menu very quick. this was using DirectX.

Maybe swapping to another video card will be the next test.
 
Final Report

Final Report

This thread was started because I thought I had a Surveyor problem with the Yorkshire Plains route in my Trainz 2004.

What I did was to blow out and clean all dust (there wasn't too much) from the computer. Also uninstalled 2004 the best I could, including 31 references in the registry which weren't at first removed. Installed again with the registry clean. Re-entered my personal information.

Replaced all the World folder items including about 9 gigs of dispatcher downloads. Tried two functioning older video cards. The problem remained when red-dotting out of Surveyor after a Quick Drive. Result, crash to desktop. Hardware access.

I found that if I saved the Quick Drive as a Driver session, it could run happily in Driver Sessions forever. Then it would end cleanly and go back to the Driver sessions list screen. Blink of an eye! Perfect.

Also, I looked up how long I have had this hardware.. roughly since Oct.23, 2006. (motherboard, CPU, and one of the sticks of memory) (other 512 stick since May 8,2008. And the power supply since Mar.11, 2004! Latest video card about four years. So it's easy to see how the computer might be on the way out!

It is still puzzling how it won't crash at all if strictly in Driver. But if I do a Quick Drive save, it crashes when trying to go back into Surveyor, never getting back to the Surveyor module or the red dot. But it saves the Quick Drive properly. I can only guess that going back to Surveyor needs more, healthy memory?

I also wonder why my Trainz TC 1&2 will never crash from Surveyor, Driver or at any time! even with heavier routes with lots of grass and obviously under a heavier load! Maybe a smaller Local folder? around 7 Gigs.

Ah, sweet mysteries of life!! Well, I can still use 2004 to a certain extent while saving my pennies for some newer hardware to put in the old box!

Thanks very much to everyone for all the good suggestions!
 
Running Trainz with your either net cable disconnected & turning some things off: like your antivirus, will improve framerates ... Just remember to turn them back on later, when you are surfing the internet !!!
 
Hi Cascade, Thanks for that advice. I do not have an ethernet cable connected, but last night I did turn off my firewall and ran five routes or so multiple times without any kind of crash.

But then I also remembered that a cold room temperature (around 65F) previously 'fixed' the crashing to desktop one day. (last night it was about 71F in the room).

Today, I ran the 2004 routes (with the firewall on) (room temp about 72F) and also had no crashes.

But it's possible, I think, that the firewall being off might be helping it. I'll keep experimenting with the firewall off for the next few days, while also turning my heat up! I'll report back here if it is solved.

Bob P.
 
Hi Bob,

This could be a script error with TRS2004 as John Whelan has indicated. I at first suspected those two locos you loaded. Have you tried, just for kicks, removing these from Trainz? Sometimes even their presence in the database, chump file, will cause TRS2004 to barf.

With your mention of heat, though I do suspect a hardware issue, and not surprised due to the age of the hardware. I have a hunch this could very well be a RAM (Memory chip) issue. Heat sensitivity usually has to do with thermal-related cracks within the chip substrate, or even a cold solder joint on the DIMM. As things heat up and expand, the metal leads may move even a smidge from the pads causing things to go haywire. I recommend running Memtst86 which is not a stress test like a benchmark tester. It only runs the memory through various binary combinations to force bits to stick or not move. A bit stuck high, for example will not change to a zero when it's supposed to, the same with a bit stuck low, and both can cause odd errors and even crashes. Here's the link before I forget!

http://www.memtest.org/

You need to burn the ISO file to a CD or DVD and reboot. Choose the option (you might have to set this up in your BIOS) to boot from the CD/DVD.

The program will test your memory a few blocks at a time. The test will run until you cancel it and should there be any errors, there will be red, bold, lines that will indicate the address. Finding which DIMM is bad will be up to you. You'll need to test one DIMM at a time to determine which one is flaky. So if there are errors, open up the case, remove all the memory but one. Note, you might need to keep two in there since some motherboards require memory to be in pairs. Test the single DIMM or pair just like you did the full batch. If there are any failures, you've got your buggy items. Which one in a pair? You need to play swaparroo with others to figure that out for the process of elimination.

Why TRS2004 is more sensitive to the flaky memory probably has to do with the way it loaded. Programs load into certain locations in memory, but not always the same location, which explains your good days versus bad ones. If there's a faulty block somewhere, the data gets garbled, meaning what should be a sequence of 1's followed by a long sequence of 0's becomes a single 1 and a single 0 somewhere, causing the program to go off to bit heaven.

You might find this interesting as this sounded oh, so familiar to me. :)

When I was running TRS2004, I'd go for a drive on a rather extensive route. This was about 1/2 hour into the route and on the mainline east. Everything would be fine until I reached a particular point on the route. Then BANG! BOP! I'm at the desktop with the same error message you have. Poking around the forums, and way back in the long-gone forums, others suggested bad content. I then went through the process of elimination. Anything that looked suspicious was removed to no avail. Eventually, I had an almost bare area on my route, except for trees which were used elsewhere, only to still have the barf and crash to the desktop. Then one day... I had other system errors. I was browsing the forums and had errors when I exited from my browser, then Word, then Excel, then I couldn't run anything. Hmm... I ran Memtst86 and found a bad DIMM, replaced it under warranty no less, and in the end I loaded my backup copy of my route and I was then happily driving past the point of the crash.

Now keep this in mind. Should the memory pass its tests, then it's something else including the power supply, and hopefully not the motherboard. Power supplies can get weak over time as their components age. The biggest culprit is the filter capacitors or voltage regulators (or as my electronics teacher used to say Wolatge Wegulators)! If this doesn't fix it, then it's the motherboard which unfortunately is the heart of the machine and is a new box in general. So, go for the easy stuff first like a memory test.

John
 
Last edited:
Crashing to desktop is sometimes caused by assets that don't show as faulty. When I was running TC one route would crash. I found the problem was caused by a level crossing probably script problems. Whenever I came close to this crossing in surveyor or driver the route would crash. The only way to solve this was to delete the crossing from the local folder. Some splines can be the problem too. May be worth trying this, make a list of the assets and add these on a new route. This will hopefully show you what's causing the problem. I'm not sure that overheating is the cause as surely TC would crash too, especially as you said you could run heavy routes.
 
Hello All,

I can think of only three locos that are trouble makers, since they have caused crashes. J94 Monkton, and J94 LNER8009 and the other is a tiny black UK steam loco , whose name I can't remember. I have just searched for it in Railyard, and couldn't find it. However Trainz 2004 has been running for years with these trouble makers in the database. Still, I could remove them.. just not sure if Trainz Objectz deletes all the dependencies as well?

The Class 31 used on Yorkshire Plains is not troublesome, I have four other Class 31's also that are similar and run well.

I just downloaded Memtest86 2.11 ISO.zip, which is older, and had me thinking somehow it will work better on my old PC3200 memory.But the zip file size was only 15k !! Something seems wrong there! I do have a program called Active @ ISO Burner to burn those things.

Maybe JCitron, you can help me on which version might be best. I have also read something about Memtest today. Seems that some versions can work on a floppy disk. My comp. has one of those, from which I boot 'Drive Image' often, although it can also boot from CD-DVD. I also read that Memtest can take nine hours! That does not sound real nice to me!

There are only two 512 mb sticks and only two slots on the motherboard. I also am fairly sure that Trainz, 04 and 06, used to run on this computer with a single 512mb stick, just taking longer when closing down. I am leaning toward the memory also, because of the temperature factor involved. Also because the crash always happens when coming out of a Quick Drive and coming back to Surveyor or from Surveyor back to the black Surveyor Sessions screen. A big load, maybe in the memory. I will try to test the memory!

Also, the Corsair Value memory has been running slightly overclocked (204.3 mhz instead of 200 mhz) for about six years.

Also, Falcon500, the program does not seem to be crashing because of faulty dependencies. I do get AJS Junction types of warnings or similar when opening up some routes, but I just tell it to continue, and there are no hang ups or crashes when driving the routes. It has been that way for years.. But still, not totally impossible!!
 
Measure your supply voltages at the main board, at the board side of the connector from the power supply. If you have a scope, better still.
I had the connector contacts go bad by having a higher than normal resistance. This causes the contacts to get warmish as some of the voltage is lost at the contacts. This will cause the contacts to discolor so look at the pins first, particularly the +5V. I "fixed" it by jumpering across it from the cable to the board.
 
Bob,

Give the version you downloaded a try, and try a newer one if you can. Use the floppy-based version if you can. I've used that before on computers of that same vintage and it works fine. The thing is it's the same program whether you boot from a CD/DVD or the floppy.

Running for nine hours is about right. I used to run it overnight and just turned the monitor off so it didn't get burned-in a Memtest screen on it. You can easily run the individual tests if you want, but I suggest running the whole test suite right from the beginning. The first ones are quick tests and as time goes on, they get more complicated with various iterations of bit patterns.

SuperFudd did bring up an important point regarding the voltages from your power supply. I've seen that too when a computer is under load. Remember programs like Trainz do work the computer harder than just browsing forums or doing only card games. :) If the power supply is failing, it can lose its regulation and you'll see some voltage drops.

John
 
Nope SuperFudd, I am not technically proficient! Don't even own an ohmmeter or any kind of test equipment!

I just did two passes using Memtest86+ V2.11

It was Test Standard , ECC-Off, Cache On, MemMap e820-std, The results were Pass 1, zero errors ... Pass 2, zero errors ...

This was with both sticks installed, using the overclocked BIOs settings I have used for six years ...

It said the Ram was at 204 Mhz (DDR408)<--- That sounds weird doesn't it? But it isn't running as DDR400, I believe it says DDR333 at the startup screen... CAS 3-3-3-7, DDR-1 64 Bits

I think that I will never go through a nine hour test. Too much trouble. Maybe I'll let it go through four passes some day. This equipment is old stuff!

I agree about the power supply, which is over ten years old. Might be on the way out. Strange how it always occurs at the same spot in Trainz, when exiting out of Surveyor, or from a Quick Drive save back into Surveyor.

I will go remove those troublesome locos just for the heck of it!! Perhaps I'll try running Trainz 2004 using one stick at a time!

Thanks for your advice, guys!!
Bob P.
 
Let the program run overnight so you don't have to wait for it. If anything should die, it'll die during that time. If you want, you can always pick a more complicated test. From memory, pun intended, choose Test #9 which is supposed to be really complex and really force the bits around.

The test information regarding your memory speed is most likely confused due to the overclocking. Your overclocking turned the DDR333 into DDR400 memory! Keep in mind that the bus is actually 1/2 the number rated on the RAM since the chips themselves work at twice the clock speed. It's a bit more complicated than that and rather difficult to explain, so hopefully I did it some justice.

It is interesting that the program crashes in exactly the same place. As I said, I had the same issue with being boinked quickly to the desktop just as I rounded a corner. After much troubleshooting, I found that I had bad memory, but it could be a script issue, and or a corrupted item in that part of the route. The thing is try other routes with the same equipment and see what happens. It could also be that TRS2004 runs out of memory too and crashes. It didn't handle badly formed scripts or faults very well, and thus the crashes. This is why we have the error checking in TS12 which everyone complains about. This stops these crashes, pretty much most of the time now, from occurring. Sometimes there can be problems with an asset, as was mentioned, that don't produce an error. They could be technically constructed properly, however, there's an error somewhere, such as a bad texture, which can send Trainz to the desktop quickly.

John
 
Let the program run overnight so you don't have to wait for it. If anything should die, it'll die during that time. If you want, you can always pick a more complicated test. From memory, pun intended, choose Test #9 which is supposed to be really complex and really force the bits around.

Thanks John, one of the main problems is if I let the program run overnight, I will not be able to sleep, because the computer is in my bedroom! But I'll try to let it run maybe from early morning till the afternoon!

The test information regarding your memory speed is most likely confused due to the overclocking. Your overclocking turned the DDR333 into DDR400 memory! Keep in mind that the bus is actually 1/2 the number rated on the RAM since the chips themselves work at twice the clock speed. It's a bit more complicated than that and rather difficult to explain, so hopefully I did it some justice.

Actually, the overclocking turned the DDR400 memory into DDR333! It had something to do with timings and multiplier and other settings. If you wish to see the thread on Guru3d where some guys helped me, I'll try to put the link here ...

http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=261856

The crashes to desktop occur on a variety of routes now. Yorkshire Plains, GHOO Megaroute, Gillby & Wallace, and others that I ran. It is always when I go back into Surveyor then red dot out of Surveyor ...crash! Or lately, I have found I save the Quick drive, then it tries to go back to Surveyor .. crash.

If I run any of these Quick Drive saves in Driver, the sessions I have set up in Surveyor, (on these routes) they never crash!! Great mystery! Same locos and consists, same distance settings, same scenery, tracks, etc.

These routes and sessions have never crashed ever, in many years!!

There might be a connection, as I have stated, I think, in this thread, that my replacement of the BIOS battery, wiped out the settings in the BIOS that I had entered on the advice of the guys on Guru3D. However the first notice of crashes on the Yorkshire Plains route, were noticed when the computer had reset back to stock speed (1.68 on the CPU and DDR400,400Mhz on the memory ).

At first, I was not aware that it had reset! Well, I will test the memory again tomorrow for a longer period! Slow but steady wins the race they say !!!:Y: Bob.
 
Thanks John, one of the main problems is if I let the program run overnight, I will not be able to sleep, because the computer is in my bedroom! But I'll try to let it run maybe from early morning till the afternoon! Bob.
Open the winder' ... and let the room get down to 45F, you'll be so far, with yer' head under the covers, that you won't even notice the PC being on. :hehe:

On a 3 Dawg night ... I commonly bring 3 of them inside from the Chihuahua Dawg Iditarod sled team huts (takes 39 Chihuahuas to pull an empty Flexible Flyer sled).
 
Last edited:
Open the winder' ... and let the room get down to 45F...

(Cascade often gives suggestions containing the seeds of Great Wisdom, does he not?) ????

From his basic, simple,idea, I have stretched it out to the maximum. And deduced that I could run a flexible clothes dryer vent hose out of a port in the storm window, (in the winter) and using just a computer case fan, could pump this frigid air into my computer case. Thus solving the Trainz 2004 crash problem (at least for the winter)!!

In other news... I let Memtest86+ run for about four hours this morning (Saturday). It completed eight passes with no errors.
I plan to run the #9 test this afternoon. It says it is a 'bit fade test' and will take 90 minutes to run 2 patterns.

Over and out (for now).
 
Make sure you have fine mesh screen filters (or made out of the little womans pantyhose) on both ends of the ductwork, to keep the Brown Marmorated Stinkbugz from setting up shop inside your PC :hehe: Also too cold may be bad, as well as outside moisture, from schnow and frost.

I'm trying to manufacture a solar air heater, and solar hot water heater, to keep warm this winter... and you're trying to keep cool :o

https://www.google.com/search?q=pc+...%2F01%2F10%2Foutside-air-cooled-pc%2F;470;353

https://www.google.com/search?q=pc+...ocious-waves-attacking-lighthouses%2F;990;660
 
Last edited:
I might be wrong, but this whole process thus far sounds like its going all the way round the houses so far with no solution in sight......

Falcus
 
Back
Top