Steam in the 21st Century
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NevadaNorthernFan901
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There is one thing that bugs me to is when amusement parks run steam engine powered by diesel. Might as well be a diesel instead. The question of the matter is not if steam will come back but as to what will steam look like in the future?
That is true, I hate that they do it. Steam could and will look the same as before, and much different to make the earth lovers happy, we could look back the the South African railroad's Red Devil of the 1980's that was doing pretty good against the diesel locomotives they had cost wise. It was actually cheaper to run than the diesel's were.
Wasn't anything to do with tree huggers, diesels replaced steam long before tree huggers were born. It had nothing to do with pollution altho some cities with heavy coal smoke placed restrictions on coal fired steamers, the main reason is the same objection to your proposal now - diesels are simply more efficient. Three main problems with the old steam locos;
1. Complicated operation, LONG LONG preparation time, and if one engine isn't enough to pull the train two engines need two crews. Diesels are essentially electric locomotives that contain their own power station (the diesel actually does nothing more than drive an electric generator that supplies power for the traction motors in the axles) so you can hook 3 or 4 together and have one crew to operate them all from one cab. A diesel doesn't take long to warm up, so after starting it's ready to move in minutes rather than hours.
2. Maintenance cost. I was in a US Navy helicopter squadron, and military aircraft have standards of "man-hours" of maintenance - three men working for 4 hours is 12 man-hours of maintenance. Fixed wing fighters and attack bombers routinely averaged one man-hour of maintenance for every hour of flight, helicopters required 8 man-hours for every hour of flight. Obviously you can't replace a helicopter with fixed wing aircraft since helicopters exist for the very reason that they can do things that fixed wing aircraft can not do, but the same does not hold true for diesel versus steam - the diesel can do the same job while requiring a lot less man-hours of maintenance.
3. Range. Most fan trips these days you'll see the steam loco pulling two tenders instead of just one, that's not for additional fuel, it's for additional water. Back in the day steam trains had to stop and fill the water tank every few hundred miles, a diesel can go a lot further between fillups. Some type of closed system to condense and reuse the water would probably extend a steam loco's range, but again at the cost of extra complication for the condensers and accumulators and all the associated plumbing for that. Which sends us back to man-hours of maintenance again, more pipes to clog, more heat exchangers expanding and contracting and getting coated with crud that needs to be cleaned out, more leaky joints to be tightened and replaced.
Bottom line is the diesel electric locomotive is one of the most efficient transportation machines ever invented, to replace it with anything you need to come up with something better. And as much as we all love the romance of steam, it simply is not better than diesels for doing the same work.
1. Complicated operation, LONG LONG preparation time, and if one engine isn't enough to pull the train two engines need two crews. Diesels are essentially electric locomotives that contain their own power station (the diesel actually does nothing more than drive an electric generator that supplies power for the traction motors in the axles) so you can hook 3 or 4 together and have one crew to operate them all from one cab. A diesel doesn't take long to warm up, so after starting it's ready to move in minutes rather than hours.
2. Maintenance cost. I was in a US Navy helicopter squadron, and military aircraft have standards of "man-hours" of maintenance - three men working for 4 hours is 12 man-hours of maintenance. Fixed wing fighters and attack bombers routinely averaged one man-hour of maintenance for every hour of flight, helicopters required 8 man-hours for every hour of flight. Obviously you can't replace a helicopter with fixed wing aircraft since helicopters exist for the very reason that they can do things that fixed wing aircraft can not do, but the same does not hold true for diesel versus steam - the diesel can do the same job while requiring a lot less man-hours of maintenance.
3. Range. Most fan trips these days you'll see the steam loco pulling two tenders instead of just one, that's not for additional fuel, it's for additional water. Back in the day steam trains had to stop and fill the water tank every few hundred miles, a diesel can go a lot further between fillups. Some type of closed system to condense and reuse the water would probably extend a steam loco's range, but again at the cost of extra complication for the condensers and accumulators and all the associated plumbing for that. Which sends us back to man-hours of maintenance again, more pipes to clog, more heat exchangers expanding and contracting and getting coated with crud that needs to be cleaned out, more leaky joints to be tightened and replaced.
Bottom line is the diesel electric locomotive is one of the most efficient transportation machines ever invented, to replace it with anything you need to come up with something better. And as much as we all love the romance of steam, it simply is not better than diesels for doing the same work.
Steamdemon
Pizza Delivery Train
There is the proposed 5AT 4-6-0 loco. Link below.
http://www.5at.co.uk/
there are other options, of course
http://5at.co.uk/index.php/options/alternative-strategies.html
Wonder how they will pull it off.
http://www.5at.co.uk/
there are other options, of course
http://5at.co.uk/index.php/options/alternative-strategies.html
Wonder how they will pull it off.
"There is the proposed 5AT 4-6-0 loco"
No there isn't. I have been to their site a number of times for several years. Now, I'm sure they are operating in perfectly good faith, but they have been at it for ten years, and they have only produced a feasibility study. Apparently not a determination of the feasibility of building the locomotive, but of forming a company to build the locomotive. I could not find an instance of a single component actually fabricated of metal and tested.
The assumption is that everything is going to work perfectly and produce the results desired, but I wouldn't get my hopes up until they have built a prototype, carefully tested all of the components, worked out the bugs, and run it behind a dynamometer car.
For this they apparently want to raise $10,000,000,000. I'd be skeptical.
Bernie
No there isn't. I have been to their site a number of times for several years. Now, I'm sure they are operating in perfectly good faith, but they have been at it for ten years, and they have only produced a feasibility study. Apparently not a determination of the feasibility of building the locomotive, but of forming a company to build the locomotive. I could not find an instance of a single component actually fabricated of metal and tested.
The assumption is that everything is going to work perfectly and produce the results desired, but I wouldn't get my hopes up until they have built a prototype, carefully tested all of the components, worked out the bugs, and run it behind a dynamometer car.
For this they apparently want to raise $10,000,000,000. I'd be skeptical.
Bernie
10 billion what does all that go to company, building the prototype engine, and running it?
There is one thing that bugs me to is when amusement parks run steam engine powered by diesel
It's still a steam engine. Why are you so against diesel? Both diesel and coal spew out all sorts of harmful products when burned. Do you just want something that burns coal? The UP steam program uses fuel oil (which is pretty much diesel). Do you think they should stop it because they don't use coal?
FYI Rudolf Diesel design the diesel combustion engine to use coal.
Would you rather have Diesel electrics that use coal dust or a true steam engine that uses oil?
I don't get where you are coming from.
It really how steam is made that makes steamer interesting to me really the fact is, I am not really against oil burning steamer long as its not a diesel inside the boiler. I just for some reason I don't seem find diesels all that amazing how they work. I just find how they work amazing and that what makes me want to see them.
I'd like to see the old 3 masted clipper ships on the high seas, but it ain't gonna happen because they just ain't practical.
I'd love to see this;
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=91027&l=cb60a6a602&id=100001028687859
And this;
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=24743&l=fe677cb6a1&id=100001028687859
And this;
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=62583&l=72ec751022&id=100001028687859
All running the rails again, but they just wouldn't pay for themselves. Modern diesels don't have the romance, but they do the job and produce more money than they cost to operate and maintain.
I'd love to see this;
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=91027&l=cb60a6a602&id=100001028687859
And this;
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=24743&l=fe677cb6a1&id=100001028687859
And this;
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=62583&l=72ec751022&id=100001028687859
All running the rails again, but they just wouldn't pay for themselves. Modern diesels don't have the romance, but they do the job and produce more money than they cost to operate and maintain.
NevadaNorthernFan901
Member
If we went to steam power again, it would reduce our dependence on imported oil.
NNF901....
Let me say that I admire your desire to return to steam loco's.
You have shown a high degree of intelligence in your posts for someone who I think is in high school at this time.
However, as you mature and gain more knowledge about economics and the reality of finance in the USA and globally, your position on steam may change.
No railroad executive will at this time spend the money to rebuild steam loco's and the necessary infrastructure to do this. Additionally, the labor cost for the rail industry would increase. As you may or may not know, corporations are doing everything they can to cut labor and benefit costs in all industries.
This cut back in labor is what is driving unemployment in the USA and many other countries around the world.
Regarding oil consumption, please read the attached link. It suggests that electrifying railroads MAY lead to reduced oil consumption.
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4301
So, let me say again, I think you are quite intelligent and your desire to see steam return is admirable. But, in time you will realize that returning to steam is a dream and not really possible.
Regards,
Let me say that I admire your desire to return to steam loco's.
You have shown a high degree of intelligence in your posts for someone who I think is in high school at this time.
However, as you mature and gain more knowledge about economics and the reality of finance in the USA and globally, your position on steam may change.
No railroad executive will at this time spend the money to rebuild steam loco's and the necessary infrastructure to do this. Additionally, the labor cost for the rail industry would increase. As you may or may not know, corporations are doing everything they can to cut labor and benefit costs in all industries.
This cut back in labor is what is driving unemployment in the USA and many other countries around the world.
Regarding oil consumption, please read the attached link. It suggests that electrifying railroads MAY lead to reduced oil consumption.
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4301
So, let me say again, I think you are quite intelligent and your desire to see steam return is admirable. But, in time you will realize that returning to steam is a dream and not really possible.
Regards,
Last edited:
NevadaNorthernFan901
Member
Hello aardvark1,
Thanks for your admiration for my ideas of steam riding the rails again. I do believe that in the future that diesels will fade out of existance and be replaced with electric, and possably with some form of steam power also.
Thanks again for the comment of my intelligence, you are spot on with your guess, I am in highschool, and surprisingly I am studying to go into business. But I will not be what the other business men are trying to find ways on how to line their pockets with cash, and let the american people suffer in their wake. It is sad to say big business have sold out America and left us with what is left now, a nation with a proud heritage of industrial might in ruins today. To bad our government won't do anything to incourage american industry to come back and stay. I guess it will be up to my generation to find a way out of this mess somehow.
But I will always have a room in my heart for the steam locomotives, since I was a little boy watching a steam locomotive go by it has inspired me to do something about the steam power trains in the future. Yes I know why they are gone now, but I still believe that it can change and ways can be found to make then cost effective to run.
I relized that businessess are suffering in america and there is mass layoffs are occuring at home and abroad in the developed worlds. But it is also some of the faults to the businessess, as they let their technology go overseas to asia to boost income and pay less for their workers as in China and other developing nations in the world.
I do believe that america needs to get off their addictions to "cheap" oil and car pool and drive less. We need to go back to the past as for freight transportation, in the 1920's through the 1940's major industrial cities in america had raillines to all of the factories and warehouses. I think it should go back to that, and let the trucks haul the goods from the warehouses to the stores in that city. America need to redevelop the street trollies to move people around the towns and cities. This would reduce congestion of the roads and emit less polution into the air.
I don't consider myself as a conservitave hippacrit that needs to have everything enviromentaly clean and safe, that is another thing that drove heavy american industires out of our country and to developing nations, where enviromental laws are less prevalent. Nor do I fully hate the earth lovers, but they need to think a little be more, would you want industries with lots of jobs or no industires without any jobs?
Thanks for dealing with my ingorance, trainz members,
NevadaNorthernFan901
NevadaNorthernFan901
Member
It is an idea, but it will never see the light of day. By far way too dangerous.
Never say never, but here goes, fossil fuel, coal, oil, gas, wil never last forever.
Nuclear power is getting safer, it will probably be THE power source of the future.
In a sense a lot of electric locomotives are already powered by nuclear energy, like the Sishen to Saldahna Railway Line, powered from Koeberg.
Nuclear power is getting safer, it will probably be THE power source of the future.
In a sense a lot of electric locomotives are already powered by nuclear energy, like the Sishen to Saldahna Railway Line, powered from Koeberg.
NevadaNorthernFan901
Member
Good luck getting people in the united states to let you build a nuke plant.
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