Red and Yellow Signals for NO Reason???

[fant_autentico]

I do not know the signal systems in USA but the all red rule is old here (I do not know if modern high-speed signals use it).
About Trainz, in the signal config there was a command line so that a signal would always appear in red or green, you also have to configure the route and by means of marks define the main line and those of 2nd or 3rd category so that when you deviate from the main line the signal has yellow light.
I suppose the scripts also influence but I do not know much about that; What I write is my experience with the 2010EE.

Distance signals

1 Main line not occupied and no deviation in main line, de next signal (main) also gren.

2 Deviation of mainline, de next signal (main) in yellow.

3 Line occupied, main line or deviation, the next signal (main) in red.

 

[JCitron]

I do not know the signal systems in USA but the all red rule is old here (I do not know if modern high-speed signals use it).
About Trainz, in the signal config there was a command line so that a signal would always appear in red or green, you also have to configure the route and by means of marks define the main line and those of 2nd or 3rd category so that when you deviate from the main line the signal has yellow light.
I suppose the scripts also influence but I do not know much about that; What I write is my experience with the 2010EE.

{pics removed}

Distance signals

1 Main line not occupied and no deviation in main line, de next signal (main) also gren.

2 Deviation of mainline, de next signal (main) in yellow.

3 Line occupied, main line or deviation, the next signal (main) in red.

N3V, or better yet Auran at the time, chose the easiest and best route for US signaling. The reason is we have many systems here which are based on variations of two different signaling practices. Some of these rail lines have red signals on unoccupied blocks while others utilize an approach-lit setup where no aspect is shown until a train is within the track-circuit. These latter systems were quite common when the signals were all electro-mechanical and used big lamps instead of LEDs, which don't draw as much power from the batteries if they are on a battery. The purpose for the approach-lit system, therefore, is to save the life of the lamps, and to save the batteries.

Since the development and introduction of LEDs, this seems to have fallen out of favor and now unoccupied blocks are lit. Here's a new signal that was introduced a few years ago when a new station platform as built.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]https://goo.gl/maps/cUCYaTKa3b42

The line goes from double track to single here past the station, for a dumb reason that no one can explain why that decision was made, then goes back to multiple tracks past the yard.

When I traveled extensively through out the South and Midwest US a few years ago, the signals on all the new "Darth Vader" hooded signals were lit regardless of there was a train in the block or not. Traveling along through Texas on US 20 and other highways that paralleled the busy mainlines down there, seeing these signals lit one after another for miles (kilometers) on end was truly amazing.[/FONT]


Jointed Rail www.jointedrail.com, as well as on the DLS, has some signals that have approach-lit capabilities, however, by default they are red and each and every signal needs to be configured within a session.

 

[fant_autentico]

The railway signaling is a world in itself, so I do not dare to say much about it. In Spain, the light signals (not led) were always on, they used low intensity light bulbs (watts, no energy saving lightbulbs) and the important thing was the optics of the lens which directed that little power towards the front.


About Trainz I mentioned some command lines in the signal config

"home 1"
"always-controlled 1"

One of these commands has to do with the always red light, but now I do not know which.

There are many signaling systems, one example is the fixed signals with night light. These signals are lit from dusk to dawn manually or automatically. It is complicated in Trainz to represent that and the solution was to create the signals as objects scenery with night mode and to include an invisible signal in the track.

 

[boleyd]

Is it possible to have signals to close together? Overlap within the Zone of Control, could that cause odd behaviors? Ignorance of the individual signal's behaviors, as well as those of N3V programming, could that be some of the issues we see as allegedly odd? Do people who create routes always understand signals? Do customers in general understand the underlying signaling philosophy of a route they get from the DLS? Seems like the role of signals could be "a traditional visual decoration" or a serious participant in a complex railroad session.

 

[1611mac]

I'm 3 months into TRS19 and one of the first things I did was build a "signal" test track for myself. Several ovals all connected with straights tracks on the ends and that connected with two encircling outer loops. Put signals at each switch and even centered in between the end of the loops. Started with one loco and various switch settings. Then two locos, then three, then some consists and set them going with AI. It was amazing how this simple little test route helped my understanding of signals. (And how to use Surveyor to lay track and place signals)

 

[boleyd]

Did you notice any anomalies when signals were too close to each other?

 

[1611mac]

Did you notice any anomalies when signals were too close to each other?

I don't recall any anomalies. I will check it out again shortly just to make sure. When you say "close," how close?

 

[1611mac]

Here are two pics of a really simple setup. I ran many combinations/possibilities and lights behaved properly.

Initial setup shows in first pic - second pic shows one possible movement

 

[JCitron]

There are anomalies with the built-in N3V (ancient Auran) signals, which are actually models of signals from NSW, but us North American logic.

These old signals will trigger an aspect when any train car regardless of whether it's a locomotive or not. Some of the newer ones will only change aspects if there's a locomotive occupying the block.

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Can there be a signal overlap issue?

Yes!

I have run into this on my own routes, and depending upon the signal creator, some of the signals will indicate that when moused over. The problem with overlapping signals seems to be constant reds with no aspect change, which causes stalled AI trains. The problem is they work fine in Surveyor, but don't work in Driver so you don't know about this until you go to drive your route and wonder why there's a big backup of AI drivers. Hovering over the signals in Driver, will state signal overlap, and for some reason now I can't remember if it states which signal it overlaps with (Probably not and it would be wishful thinking if it did).

Back in TS12 and T:ANE before the introduction of interlocking towers, signals could be tested easily in Surveyor successfully most of the time. Hovering over a signal, for example, would give the aspect rather than some signal number, which isn't very helpful in all cases.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

https://forums.auran.com/trainz/sho...w-Signals-for-NO-Reason&p=1728462#post1728462

all of the operation is outlined here.

 

[ZecMurphy]

Summed up quite nicely Norfolksouthern37.

There is one default signal configuration type that I can think of that operates slightly-different and that is the "always-controlled" signal that causes the train to stop at it before it can clear the path. I do not know a lot about these or where they should be used as they appear to follow a regional or special practice and there isn't any real information on the use of that tag.

For this one, this is sometimes known as an 'approach release' signal in areas with signalman controlled signals (ie it is always controlled by a person). The idea is similar to a caution signal limiting speed into a block before a red signal, but in this case enforces a speed restriction by stopping the train. Particularly useful if you are entering a yard where passing the red signal at the end of the next block may result in running into wagons in the yard.

It can also be used to permit a train into an occupied track in some situations, and a red flag is used to create a 'signal' before the vehicles occupying the track (I have seen this done in person at a few railways around Australia when a single platform has a vehicle also occupying it). Preferably you would use a Calling On signal in this case, but not all stations will have one (they were fairly rare in Victoria, with only bigger stations getting them).

Regards

 

[boleyd]

One of the issues that bubbles up is, which signals do you choose?? They are not cataloged, nor described as to operational purpose, and thus the route builder/modifier gets into trouble. Different signals, from the same source, for different purposes can make it difficult to avoid issues as well. It would be nice to avoid this by some knowledgeable person(s) creating a catalog outline into which signal authors, or experts, could list their signals in a LOGICAL fashion.

Signals are an essential element for a railroad. That should also be reflected by N3V with some participation in rationalizing the myriad of signals in the DLS.

 

[1611mac]

One of the issues that bubbles up is, which signals do you choose?? They are not cataloged, nor described as to operational purpose, and thus the route builder/modifier gets into trouble. Different signals, from the same source, for different purposes can make it difficult to avoid issues as well. It would be nice to avoid this by some knowledgeable person(s) creating a catalog outline into which signal authors, or experts, could list their signals in a LOGICAL fashion.

Signals are an essential element for a railroad. That should also be reflected by N3V with some participation in rationalizing the myriad of signals in the DLS.

Watched a "Tutorial" on Youtube video a week or so ago. I did learn a lot but the above point was illustrated by this comment: "I use the "xxx" signals... I can't tell you why. I just know these are the ones I use." Thus, guess which ones I used for signal tests... same ones. Why? I'm in USA and the signals are labeled "US" and this person used them.... I only assume they work as desired.....

 

[boleyd]

Speaking of illustrations - I was surprised to see that there is NO CATEGORY FOR SIGNALS on the DLS. A primary element of a railroad does not have a category. With over 5000 items proclaiming to be signals, or associations, N3V never saw them of sufficient importance to categorize them. Instead signals are buildings, mesh, scenery, track objects, and yes, misc! C'mon man.

 

[ecco]

I just set up a quick test in TANE 94916. On a single baseboard, I placed a winding track. At the start, I placed an F7A. At the end, I placed a buffer. Short of the buffer I placed a trackmark labeled "END". I placed Signal USA 04's along the path.

In Edit Session I placed one instruction: Drive to TM "END". In Quickdrive all signals are green at the start. When the F7A passes a signal, it turns red. When the F7A passes the next signal the first turns yellow and then back to green when the next signal is passed. This is exactly the way it is supposed to work.

So the question is: What is different between my test config and the one in the OP?

 

[ecco]

Is it possible to have signals to close together? Overlap within the Zone of Control, could that cause odd behaviors? Ignorance of the individual signal's behaviors, as well as those of N3V programming, could that be some of the issues we see as allegedly odd? Do people who create routes always understand signals? Do customers in general understand the underlying signaling philosophy of a route they get from the DLS? Seems like the role of signals could be "a traditional visual decoration" or a serious participant in a complex railroad session.

A serious participant in a complex railroad session.

 

[JCitron]

Speaking of illustrations - I was surprised to see that there is NO CATEGORY FOR SIGNALS on the DLS. A primary element of a railroad does not have a category. With over 5000 items proclaiming to be signals, or associations, N3V never saw them of sufficient importance to categorize them. Instead signals are buildings, mesh, scenery, track objects, and yes, misc! C'mon man.

It's confusing because they're all categorized as Trackside objects...

and confusing because there are a gazillion catenary poles, buffer stops, bumpers, switch stands, abutments, piers, and anything else that attaches to the track.

There was also a time when the DLS got messed up and somehow the assets lost their category and ended up with misc. I think this was around TRS2010/TS12 era. This caused quite a mess because now there are thousands of assets with category Misc, which range from scenery objects, splines, tracks, track-object types, and other truly miscellaneous items, but there's no way to tell because of the lost category.

 

[ecco]

Here are two pics of a really simple setup. I ran many combinations/possibilities and lights behaved properly.

Initial setup shows in first pic - second pic shows one possible movement

The signal at Junction 366 looks like an 04. It should be an 02L (top light main path, bottom light left divergence path)

[/IMG]

 

[1611mac]

Ahhh yes... you are absolutely correct! Thanks. I'll go back and check all my signals... (All are "02's" and "04's")