Railworks 3 to be released in september

[wholbr]

Hi everybody

On a slightly different note, if someone decides for whatever reason that they would rather not have the upgrade, can it be declined? This is not to start an argument, but rather whether it is physically possible to permanently refuse an upgrade and stay with RW2 as is or will every future game play result in an attempt by Steam to upgrade.

On the other hand, if after using the upgrade a user decides that it is not there cup of tea, can the game be reverted to the previous version without any penalty?

Here I'm thinking of all the who went from TS2009 or another version to TS12 and then went back or use both or never went At all.

Martin I think you make a very good point there and one that I have never really thought about to be honest. I have to say that I have never had any problem with Railworks upgrades or steam in the approximately 2 years I have had it installed on my computer.

Perhaps I am not the worrying kind when it comes to automatic upgrades from steam with regard to them accessing to my computer without my knowledge. But as you say many users of Trainz have purchased new versions only to find that they preferred the earlier one they had been using and therefore have come back with no trouble.

With Railworks 3 I would imagine that the upgrade will overwrite all the old files and that will be a once and for all action. Therefore as you say it may be worth looking at ways you can backup the old files just in case you prefer Railworks 2.

However, I have never done any large routes in Railworks as I do not have the time these days to do route building in trainz or RW. So I think I will wait and see what we get and go along with that or not as the case may be.

NikiA, regarding your comments on having to use the inbuilt routes in RW to build your own creations, well that is the way that Railworks has operated since its creation as rail simulator. If you create a freeware route then if you release it through UKST you just inform those who wish to download it the inbuilt and payware routes they will have to have installed on their systems to be able to use your creation.

It's not a bad business model as the payware creators often must have users buy their routes to be able to use other downloaded freeware routes. From a Railworks management point of view it straps the large payware creators to them in a big way.

Must get back to the football forum as Blackburn beat Arsenal this afternoon and they are throwing the virtual chairs at one another over there. Being a Man U supporter I am just standing on the sidelines adding a bit of fuel to the fire now and again
Bill
I wonder if there has been a virtual murder over there yet. Bye

 

[martinvk]

...



I'm not sure why someone would want to do that since the improvements are significant enough that the game really had no future without them, which was the whole point of the update to begin with.

At a guess, for the same reasons that all the people who still use UTC or TRS2004 or TRS2006 or etc., have not upgraded. Could be hardware, time invested, happy with what they got or just - because. One thing I'm sure of is that they are all glad we don't have big brother deciding whats good for them and forcing an upgrade whether they like it or not. You say significant improvements, others might say major fluff. It all depends on what you consider important.

 

[djt]

One thing I'm sure of is that they are all glad we don't have big brother deciding whats good for them and forcing an upgrade whether they like it or not.

No instead you can pay $60.00 for yesterday's game in a new box, lol.

You say significant improvements, others might say major fluff. It all depends on what you consider important.

If the improvements include a lot better utilization of the hardware along with graphics that the rest of the gaming world has been enjoying for years now, I'd consider it more than just major fluff.

Sure I'd like to see improved train handling physics but if the platform is flawed/out dated to begin with why bother?

 

[Vern]

You can turn off auto-update, but some people have reported that sometimes fails and updates anyway. Also doing this you'd likely not be able to install any (steam purchased) DLC. Given that future DLC will likely depend on RW3 features that might be a relative non-issue.

Best option is to do a manual backup to a different location and de-steam it (although as mentioned earlier in this thread, mentioning HOW to de-steam it is likely to be a CoC violation).

In addition to the Horseshoe Curve route, which will indeed become a repository of assets for freeware route builders, if you can make sense of the fluff about biscuits and dramatic off topic veering on the UKTS TS2012 Pt 2 thread there may be other routes in the pipeline. Woodhead has been broadly hinted at and there is a IEP/Hitachi style electric mooted which needs a high speed electric route to do it justice. Now whether either of those are included in a new purchase of RW3 remains to be seen. However it looks as if at least initially the Horseshoe Curve route is going to be priced cheaper than previous DLC making it a more attractive proposition.

Even if I end up buying all two (maybe three) new routes it will still probably be cheaper than my purchase of TS12 which actually removed most of my favourite Trainz routes. Or put another way, no dearer than paying all over again for TC3 when it morphed into S&C2009 because Auran didn't bundle it with the other TC editions in TS2009/10!

 

[martinvk]

No instead you can pay $60.00 for yesterday's game in a new box, lol.

Again you miss the point. Not talking about whether the upgrade or new version is any good or worth it. That is everyone's own decision based on what is important for them. :wave:

If the improvements include a lot better utilization of the hardware along with graphics that the rest of the gaming world has been enjoying for years now, I'd consider it more than just major fluff.

Sure I'd like to see improved train handling physics but if the platform is flawed/out dated to begin with why bother?

Well I suppose if the physics and the AI and the signalling was all really fixed or at least significantly improved then fluff like rain drops might be tolerable.

 

[wholbr]

Hi Everybody.
With regard to the words " fluff" and " eye candy" being used in a derogatory way when referring to RW3. Well, isn't that what any simulation game is really all about.

A simulation game is all about what you see on screen, how good it looks and how close it looks to reality. Therefore, I am looking forward to the improvements with regard to rain etc. If the fluff and eye Candy turns out to be as good as the pre-release videos then that will bring the simulator nearer to reality which is what I am looking for and I would have thought what all train simulator enthusiast would be looking for.

If not, as a free upgrade I will have lost nothing.

Bill

 

[djt]

Again you miss the point. Not talking about whether the upgrade or new version is any good or worth it. That is everyone's own decision based on what is important for them.

So what's the problem then? If you don't have the hardware to run it or for some reason don't want the game engine improvements don't down load them and stick with what you have. I guess it's the same reason why many people who don't have the hardware to run more up to date games have stuck with MSTS, to them something is better than nothing at all.

Well I suppose if the physics and the AI and the signalling was all really fixed or at least significantly improved then fluff like rain drops might be tolerable.

Setting up realistically functioning signals in RailWorks is already possible -


http://www.pikesproducts.com/Forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=st3rk2b4lrtdehphs50edms727&topic=6.0


I personally could care less about the rain drops, I'm more interested in whether you'll be able to run a train at say 50+ mph without the game stuttering when it goes to load scenery/objects. Just taking a quick look at what true multi-core utilization has done for game play in OpenRails, it shows what's been missing with the rest of the train games out there. Smooth game play is key to any simulation and without it RailWorks is just another 3D object viewer.

If the new game engine improvements fail to deliver next Friday then so be it, like I said earlier, what else is new for this genre of games? We should be used to it by now, no surprises there, besides I can get my fill of trains with access to the real thing so I won't be loosing sleep over it.

 

[wholbr]

Hi Again Everybody.
With regard to the posting which referred to the simulator not freezing up or stuttering when driving a consist at more than 50 mph, well this is almost always down to the quality of the system you have rather than the simulator itself.

The system I am using at the moment was top of the range when I purchased it approximately 3 years ago. It still runs Railworks and Trainz very smoothly at the moment but I am wondering if it will run RW3 in the same manner.

Therefore, I have been posting over on the UKTS forum my specs and whether experienced and better informed Railworks users would recommend I upgrade. The opinion that the moment would seem to be wait and see as many are doing.

However, if stuttering and freezing becomes a problem with Railworks 3 then I will upgrade. You only get what you pay for, so you either stay with the old technology or move on with the new. As stated many still remain with the Microsoft simulator as they perhaps have no alternative, but technology and companies always look to the future and where their future profits will be.

That's life
Bill

 

[djt]

With regard to the posting which referred to the simulator not freezing up or stuttering when driving a consist at more than 50 mph, well this is almost always down to the quality of the system you have rather than the simulator itself.


It still runs Railworks and Trainz very smoothly at the moment but I am wondering if it will run RW3 in the same manner.

It doesn't matter what the specs are, I've been running RailWorks on three gaming setups ranging from a Core2 Quad (Q9650) based setup to a couple of setups using i7's (975X, 980X) with an AMD/ATI 5870, Nvidia GTX 480 and GTX 580, as already mentioned over and over again in various forums the scenery/object loading is unavoidable because the way the game engine was written.

If it wasn't a problem then the developer wouldn't have mentioned trying to address the issue with true multi-core utilization to begin with.

It also comes down to what you consider smooth game play, if you've never seen a game run at a consistent frame rate that matches the refresh rate of the monitor/display then how would you know any better?

 

[geophil]

Hi Everybody.
With regard to the words " fluff" and " eye candy" being used in a derogatory way when referring to RW3. Well, isn't that what any simulation game is really all about.

As there is no ISO standard to determine what a simulation is, you are fine to create your own definition.

Some people interpret a railway simulation as a software which concentrates on the simulation of railway system aspects. Others see it as a simulation of ambient effects, with trains in it. No problem here.


BTW, and not directly related to virtual railways: I followed the ongoing OpenOffice story, about LibreOffice, Sun, Oracle, IBM and now Apache. In that context statistical data was published on OpenOffice market share, source: Valve Steam. Now, what the heck has the gaming platform to do with office software? (rhetorical question)

 

[NikkiA]

BTW, and not directly related to virtual railways: I followed the ongoing OpenOffice story, about LibreOffice, Sun, Oracle, IBM and now Apache. In that context statistical data was published on OpenOffice market share, source: Valve Steam. Now, what the heck has the gaming platform to do with office software? (rhetorical question)

Valve does occasional surveys on hardware, driver versions, apps, and OS. Given that steam has an installed base of at least 27 million users (last announced userbase was 27 million active users back in 2009), that is a very compelling statistical data set, even if it does largely exclude office computers.

 

[geophil]

Valve does occasional surveys on hardware, driver versions, apps, and OS.

Sure they do. It's part of their business model. I am just a bit confused because some Steam supporters in the forums continue to play ostrich, pretending there are no issues with Steam spying inside your own machine.

 

[wholbr]

Hi Everybody.

It doesn't matter what the specs are, I've been running RailWorks on three gaming setups ranging from a Core2 Quad (Q9650) based setup to a couple of setups using i7's (975X, 980X) with an AMD/ATI 5870, Nvidia GTX 480 and GTX 580, as already mentioned over and over again in various forums the scenery/object loading is unavoidable because the way the game engine was written.

If it wasn't a problem then the developer wouldn't have mentioned trying to address the issue with true multi-core utilization to begin with.

It also comes down to what you consider smooth game play, if you've never seen a game run At a consistent frame rate that matches the refresh rate of the monitor/display then how would you know any better?

Well, djt, Railworks running on three systems just to test smoothness and frame rates, anyone would have to go a long ways the beat that. Still I suppose us lesser mortals in Europe have to remember that everything is always done bigger and better in the United States. Although some may think that having Railworks on three systems for one purpose was somewhat of an obsession.

For me all I have is a run-of-the-mill system with the following specs:-
Processor:-Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q6600 @ 2.40GHz, 2400 Mhz, 4 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s)
Graphics Card Geoforce GTS250 1024mb 256-bit

As I have stated in an earlier posting the system is about three years old and the graphics card about nine months old. To me all the above is gobbledygook but it runs Railworks and Trainz very smoothly so I have no complaints at the moment. If it turns out that it will not run RW3 then I will upgrade. However, the advice I am getting from members over on the UKTS forum is to wait and see as many of them are doing.

Probably never having seen a system run at the same speed as the monitor refresh rates constantly I obviously would not know just how much better it would be. But my system seems to run at around 50-30 frames per second in Trainz and Railworks normal running, coming down to around 20 to 25 where there is heavy graphical scenery. As I said it seems to run very smooth to me at least at the moment.

Sure they do. It's part of their business model. I am just a bit confused because some Steam supporters in the forums continue to play ostrich, pretending there are no issues with Steam spying inside your own machine.

Geophil, being one of the millions of ostriches out there which have no problem with steam updating my computer perhaps I can explain why. I own my own business and regularly work from home although we now have an office in the town I still like to work at home in the evening.

This computer with Railworks and Trainz on it is also used for my business and is very rarely switched off. If steam were to maliciously interrogate the system they would not find much confidential information on it as all the company documents are now held on either Google or Microsoft. The main reason for that being that I or any of the now three employees can access those documents from wherever they are. We have held documentation that way for the last two years and I have also had the steam Railworks for approximately the same period. The business and myself have had no problems with any of the above, but if I wished to be paranoid I could imagine Google or Microsoft accessing all those documents for malicious purposes. However, one case of the above regarding any of the millions of documents they must hold on their remote servers would undoubtedly ruin their business for years to come.

The alternative would be to hold everything on the company computers for better security so say. The problem is that this house and nearby office is only a quarter-mile from the sea (that being the Bristol Channel) which has a 48 feet tide rise which is the second highest in the world.

Therefore the threat of flooding I judge to be greater than the threat of remote computer interrogation fraud. Even if that flooding threat was not their I would still use the document storage along with steam and all other processes I am using now simply for convenience and business efficiency.

If you wish to have an example of the problems of storing everything on computers in offices and homes, well my brothers business received a letter from a company which had its offices in the twin towers when the New York attack occurred. The letter he received some months later asked how much his company owed the company based in the towers as all the account details had been lost.

Being in workplace health and safety one thing you realize is that everything we do in life is a risk. All you can do is assess that risk and take the lowest hazard option.

Bill

 

[robd]

... I am just a bit confused because some Steam supporters in the forums continue to play ostrich, pretending there are no issues with Steam spying inside your own machine.

That's exactly why I won't install Steam on my computer. It also galls me to know that even software bought over the counter e.g. Civilisation5 needs to be registered online with Steam to activate.

@wholbr. Interesting last post from yourself - that one's really put my glass eye to sleep.

Rob.

 

[wholbr]

Hi Rob And everybody.

@wholbr. Interesting last post from yourself - that one's really put my glass eye to sleep.

Rob.

There you are see Rob, you didn't know I had some real deep-seated beliefs I had to get off my chest.

Actually, I came up to the office this morning to run a speech upgrade on my Dragon software. When I finished I decided to give it a bit of a run by dictating my above posting on the forum.

It seemed to run very well, didn't it took me about 5 minutes to dictate all that. I was very pleased, I don't know if all rest of the forum is:hehe:

Bill

 

[geophil]

Geophil, being one of the millions of ostriches out there which have no problem with steam updating my computer perhaps I can explain why. I own my own business and regularly work from home although we now have an office in the town I still like to work at home in the evening.

Not seeing any problem is not the same as not having any problem. We call it problem awareness.

I don't give any advice on how you should protect your data and whether the bigger threat is the elements of nature or human temptation. However, being in the IT business for quite a few years now and dealing with data collection (non-personal, that is) for just as long I can assure you from my experience that any technical opportunity in the data collection process will find human weakness. Sometimes you read about it in the media. Often you don't. More recent events include Google Street View logging Wifi traffic or Apple collecting user location data.

You don't have to care, it's completely up to you.

Someone said there is a Steam user base of 27 million. That leaves how many potential users who are not Steam customers?

But even a minority can achieve results. Only a 100,000 or so German citizens opposed to Google publishing images of their home. Too many for Google. They gave up, eventually. Street View in Germany will not be expanded.

 

[NikkiA]

Sure they do. It's part of their business model. I am just a bit confused because some Steam supporters in the forums continue to play ostrich, pretending there are no issues with Steam spying inside your own machine.

Spying? The surveys are 100% opt-in, and steam asks you if you want to partake in the survey, and tells you exactly what information it will send if you do, every time.

Hardly spying.

 

[IsambardKingdomBrunel]

Mike when you get a chance there's a beta in there for you to look at, it would be good to see you're comments in the beta forum also.

Appreciate the heads up, Dan. :wave:

Best regards,
Mike.

 

[djt]

Well, djt, Railworks running on three systems just to test smoothness and frame rates, anyone would have to go a long ways the beat that. Still I suppose us lesser mortals in Europe have to remember that everything is always done bigger and better in the United States. Although some may think that having Railworks on three systems for one purpose was somewhat of an obsession.

Gaming on the PC is a hobby for many of us, RailWorks is far from being the only game running on those three machines. There's plenty of people in Europe who are into PC gaming as a hobby also you just have to look beyond the train game forums but I guess anyone who's better aware/informed of what's out there and who has more experience with the subject must be just obsessed, right?

To me all the above is gobbledygook but it runs Railworks and Trainz very smoothly so I have no complaints at the moment.

If you've got nothing else to compare it to then again how would you know any better?

But my system seems to run at around 50-30 frames per second in Trainz and Railworks normal running, coming down to around 20 to 25 where there is heavy graphical scenery. As I said it seems to run very smooth to me at least at the moment.

Try forcing v-sync on RailWorks and see what you get. The frame rate estimates you gave above mean nothing without mentioning your image quality, at what resolution and what AA/AF level are you running?

My frame rates with the two i7 setups are usually well in triple digits at 1920x1200, 8xSSAA/16xAF on most routes but that doesn't tell the whole story of how RailWorks performance still plummets to around 30 fps for a split second as it takes another gulp for scenery/object loading. Not much you can do when all the work load is on one core.

 

[djt]

Appreciate the heads up, Dan. :wave:

Best regards,
Mike.

No problem Mike, good to see you still around.