More AI head bashing stuff...

Midland

Sphenodon Punctatus
Okay, here is a fictitious station and yard in 04. The signals are all named as are the plentiful trackmarks.



You can see it's basically a main line, a loop, and an extra loop called 1 road. The mass of track at the bottom of the map is an adjacent coal mine. From left to right is "down" and from right to left is "up".







The down end with signals controlling the two points, as well as trackmarks to define a stopping position for down trains.






The up end is basically a mirror of the down end except that there is a trackmark just beyond the down home signal.





The movement required is a Garratt hauled train of 17 mt coal hoppers and one guard's van arrives from the right (left on the map) and berths on 1 road. The command "Drive to trackmark - Skipton 1 down" works fine.






Next I want the loco to cut off and go to the other end of the train. The command "Run around train" works perfectly even though the loco consists of three parts not just one.






The loco pulls out beyond the up home stick and travels back along the loop. The signal gives the left branch indication because of the invisible signals just past the main line points (see map for placement). All is still well.






At the other end of the yard the loco gets a signal to proceed out onto the main line to just beyond the down home stick. The train is on the track closest to us just out of view.






The points are set to lead in to 1 road and an invisible signal past each set of points not only ensures the home stick can show a right branch but also that the loco does not encounter a severely restricting red signal until it is actually moving down 1 road. The loco will pass a red signal under this command but at no more than 3 mph. Have a look at the map to see where I placed the invisible signals.





The loco catches on to the guard's van and what needs to happen next is for the guard's van to be detached from the train and taken to the adjacent track (the loop) and left on trackmark "Skipton up loop". I have used the commands "Uncouple from - 3"; "wait for - 5 seconds"; "Drive to trackmark - Skipton home down"; "Wait for - 5 seconds"; "Drive to trackmark - Skipton up loop".






And what actually happens is the AI has a hissy fit and cannot work out how to follow those commands.

I have placed a "Wait for - 5 seconds" between each operation command in the sequence (as you can see in the screenshots).

I have tried including the "Change direction" command but the outcome is the same with or without this command.

The trackmark "Skipton loop up" is virtually alongside the loco in the above screenshot. In the command list you can see I've included "Drive to trackmark - Skipton home down" to try and force the AI to move in the "up" direction but it somehow fails to see that as an option. When I check out the points' settings they have not changed from the default settings. Even if I manually set the points for the movement the AI still will not see it as a movement in that direction.

The guard's van is there because this railway is a bit of a dinosaur. The van has to be detached, the hoppers lifted by the loco, and the whole train pushed onto the van so that the train can proceed in the direction it came from. The loco will work in reverse and I know that this is okay because I've actually created a train like this and sent it on its way; it works fine.

The real problem here is getting the van sorted out. If I ran the train without the van it would be easy osey but would not look very prototypical.

Do any of you good people have any bright ideas as to how to make this shunt come about?




Cheers

Nix
 
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If you click on the message button above the waybill it should say why like waiting for access to junction etc. have you any other trains running in the area.
 
You're absolutely right; I completely forgot about that. I'll go and check it out.

And no, there's nothing else on this layout at all, just this one train here.


Cheers

Nix

Edit:- Okay, "Vaughan - waiting for track clearance." This is in spite of a green signal for heading back out onto the main line. It feels like he is looking for a way by going forward instead of backward. I don't get it.
 
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Hiya Nick.
I've had an AI sit at a green light and refuse to move because it can see a red 4 or 5 miles up the track.

is it anything like that?

Roy
 
Well a couple things I say are no no s off hand

1.signal s entering into jcts
2.and invisible signals

but I assume your using 2004 then....

but anyways one trick is which I cant tell is what the jcts are alianed
as open?

since your train is on a siding you may want to configure the jcts to be open to that siding this way you avoid the waiting for clearance msg....

Dave =)
 
Hi Nix

From the map I reckon the TM "Skipton Home Down" might be too close to the signal "Skipton Down Home". The AI is going to want enough space to physically park the loco plus a buffer zone equal to double the trackmark radius, plus a bit for safety without overlapping a sig, tm or junction.....

Andy ;)
 
Hmmm...

Quite a bit there.

Roy, there are signals further up the line but they should be clear because there is no other traffic around.

Dave, I don't quite get your point about signals entering junctions although I realise TRS can be a bit bloody-minded about them. As for invisible signals, are you saying they are inherently buggy? I know if I used them in conjunction with 3 position colour light signals they would give false indications such as a green followed by a red because there is an invisible signal between them giving the yellow (which you can't see!) but remember I'm using 2 position semaphores here so there is only a choice of green or red. I use the invisible signals to get the junction signal to give the correct diverging indication.

Dermmy, that is a very good point and I'll try it out. However before I placed that Skipton home down trackmark I was using the command "Drive to trackmark- Skipton 1 up" (with the same result).

Maybe it's a built-in planned obsolescence designed to get me to buy 06 or TC3! :hehe:





Cheers

Nix
 
Buy TC3 and it will need re-signaling as ive found with my route. Some of it is better and some not. Signals will see a train direction marker on the track and will show red and not allow the train to enter unless it is going in the correct direction. Lots of little bits and pieces that will need tweaking. Have you any direction markers on your track anywhere around the track that has to be used?
 
This is the result with the "Skipton home down" trackmark shifted further out past the home stick. In other words, exactly the same! :'(




So here is the view from the home stick toward the train. All he has to do is move to where the camera is. Look carefully at the screenshot; you'll notice that junctions 430, 431, and 432 have not been reversed by the AI. There are no other trains on the layout at all yet poor ol' Vaughan is still waiting for track clearance. If that was me in the loco cab not only would the shunter AND station master be hurling abuse at me but also train control would be on the phone for a "please explain"! :confused:

Never mind TC3, I'm thinking of going back to the original 1.3! :hehe:





Cheers

Nix
 
Hmmmmm one of those funny situations you have but its possible the track directional is acting funny where as if you didnt uncouple the third car the train would do a reverse on ya and come back up around on the drive command with the whole train I would suggest relaying that section of track from loop down direction to loop up this way avoiding the use of a directional marker... and resetting 430 and 431 green arrows oppositely as default....I would do 432 also but since its the main you may have to manually kick it....

I also use the "drive via to trackmark" seems to be more dependable also....


Dave =)
 
Coupla suggestions, or at least one suggestion and a question....

Suggestion: I hate complicating things just to get the AI to run, but a TM between the loco and Jct430 with a 'Drive Via' might kick start the loco and once it is going it may keep going...

Question: I don't have the Garrat, but I am wondering if it is in effect two locos and the AI thinks the other half has control of those three junctions. I have had funny things happen with double-headed locos which are reversed in the course of a session so that what was the trailing loco later leads. I know you are not in exactly those circumstances, but the AI is a strange and temperamental beast....

Andy :confused:
 
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Actually Dermmy there is some logic in what you say. The only problem in this case is that if I get the loco to run around the train as above but then command it to go to the coal mine and load, it does; perfectly! The odd problems seem to arise when I try to command the switching of the caboose!

I might give up TRS in favour of playing with Rubik's cube...




Cheers

Nix
 
Thread seems to have gone very quiet!

I still haven't resolved the issue; I've tried shortening the train length; using a different last vehicle (in case there was a problem with the NVGA scripting); splitting the job between two locos; nothing worked. The commands from when the loco attaches to the rear of the train are the ones that are causing the problem; the AI always seems to want to make the movement by going to the wrong end of the yard and of course it can't hence the snarl up.

If anyone would like to look more closely at this problem I'd be happy to send you the layout cdp file.

The situation at present is desperately frustrating.




Cheers

Nix
 
Hi Nick
shoot it off to me and I'll take a look at it.
you've got my address.

cheers
Roy

edit
I've got a rubiks cube if you want to borrow it. haha
 
Hi Nix
Ive played around with this and it all seems to lead to the engine set up ie three engines instead of one engine and a tender. The config of each part of the garatt has engine 1 in it. Other engine set ups have the engine 0, tender 1 placed in the tender config so as to runaround. might try altering the config to see if it makes a difference like making boiler and coal tender act as a tender 1 and making the (Water tank) act as engine 0.
 
Keith I did wonder about that. I'll try it with a conventional steamer and see what happens. I wanted to use the Garratts for effect and because they are (notionally) bi-directional.

Roy, no problem at all except it is a work-in-progress and definitely not finished.

Thanks everyone for your input.




Cheers

Nix
 
An update.


I tried the same session with a single diesel loco.

It still got stuck in the same way; it doesn't seem to be able to recognise the new direction.

I then ripped out the loop and 1 road track and relaid it taking care to lay it in the direction I want the loco to take after it has run around the train.

It still got stuck and in the same way as before.

The problem is once the loco (steam, diesel, or bicycle!) has run around the train its next movement is to pull away with the loco leading but in all cases it tries to make the movement by using the original direction and of course it simply won't work.

I have tried using both of the change direction commands but to no avail.

It would seem that this manoeuvre is simply not in Auran's repertoire. :(





Cheers

Nix
 
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