Microsoft will not support upcoming CPUs

[JCitron]

I recall using CP/M but I'd rather forget! As I recall, that was my introduction to Wordstar (I think that was the name - the word processor). You can still use DOS commands in a Win 10 command prompt window although Windows does its best to hide it. I can still remember the old DOS commands but the Unix/Linux commands have me constantly looking for a manual.

I can't imagine ever changing to a Mac but, in a pinch, I could switch sides to Linux. Although the latest offerings are very Windows like.

That's about when I started on the tech scene in full force. I was working for Visual Technology, the maker of very high-end CRT terminals and the Visual V-1050 a CP/M Plus (v3.0) computer. It came with 2 floppy drives, a 9-inch display, a full 102-key keyboard, a good amount of RAM and a bundle of software.

I even contributed to this article!
http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=842&st=1

http://v1050.classiccmp.org/ - I worked briefly with Bob, mentioned in the article.

Anyway, WordStar was the best and still is for what it does. I even used it in non-document mode for writing Z80 Assembly code and BASIC because writing code in Edlin was/is impossible!

I can still remember some of the Z80 commands, though they're beginning to mush in my mind now. The one that confused me the most was PIP because it's Destination - > Source instead of DOS' Source - > Destination command format. In the process of going from CP/M to DOS, I ruined more DOS floppies and programs by overwriting the wrong disk.

I have used Solaris, Ultrix, and Red Hat. Out of all of them, Solaris to me is top-notch just like the old SPARCs that used to run it. I have two SPARCs in my basement, though I haven't powered them up in a couple of years now. They weigh a ton and require a lot of power to operate. They are extremely stable just like the OS and never, ever needed a reboot, unlike Windows. When I supported them at Polaroid, we had a SPARC server which had an uptime in the order of 500-days before it had to be shutdown due to very severe weather. The Windows NT servers would be rebooted monthly because of memory leaks, and that was with nothing running on them outside of Trend Antivirus.

If I were to switch OS's I too would go with Linux or Solaris because of its stability.

John

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody

My earlier comment about taking refuge in Linux was a bit flippant but I wonder if now is the time for a cut down O/S that is suitable for gaming and simulation. Windows 10 is already tailored for constant internet access for media and social reasons. There are so many resident processes and applications running on my PC that I really wonder how many I really need and can do without. A quick glance at Task Manager revealed that my CPU was at 25%, memory (RAM) also 25% and some 5% network. Of course, looking at task manager makes the numbers drop as those processes scurry away and hide like cockroaches.

My point is that all that stuff can and will constrain applications like Trainz, and especially T:ANE. There have been countless posts on the T:ANE threads from those who have difficulty running T:ANE on their laptops.

Hi everybody.
Pcas,i do not feel that your comment about linux was flippant in anyway. As I have just been stating in another thread in this section, both Google OS and Google android are linux based and therefore the use of the operating system is widespread and worldwide.

In regards to laptops having problems running T:ane at present, then I feel that the development of GPUs with integrated graphics will very much solve that problem in the next few years. The development and marketing of the Microsoft Surface Pro 4 tablet I believe marks not only a turning Point for the Microsoft corporation but also for the whole mobile market.

Samsung are developing a high-end tablet running Windows 10 which will be a direct competitor to the Surface Pro 4 and will have even higher specifications. Samsung has always been the very Bastion of Google Android on the mobile platform and their development into producing devices running on the Windows platform I feel is very much an “earth shifting” change in the industry. Acer another bastion of Google Android mobile are also rumoured to be in the process of developing a high end Windows 10 tablet.

Therefore the above developments will push forward competition with manufacturers bringing out devices with ever higher specifications to the benefit of everybody including perhaps eventually us Trainz hobbyists. I feel that in the not too distant future our train simulator will be running on a tablet which we will cast to a large screen monitor and sound system.

yes, we can dream, we can dream
Bill

 

[pware]

I have just upgraded the OS on my mobile phone (a Nokia Lumia 635) from Windows 8.1 to Windows 10. The upgrade went very smoothly. It took about 2 hours all up with two separate large updates needed. I do like the new look and feel of the OS with improvements in a number of areas, most noticeably in the Contacts. The metro tiles look slightly larger and seem easier to use.

 

[johnwhelan]

Hi everybody


Hi everybody.
Pcas,i do not feel that your comment about linux was flippant in anyway. As I have just been stating in another thread in this section, both Google OS and Google android are linux based and therefore the use of the operating system is widespread and worldwide.

In regards to laptops having problems running T:ane at present, then I feel that the development of GPUs with integrated graphics will very much solve that problem in the next few years. The development and marketing of the Microsoft Surface Pro 4 tablet I believe marks not only a turning Point for the Microsoft corporation but also for the whole mobile market.

Samsung are developing a high-end tablet running Windows 10 which will be a direct competitor to the Surface Pro 4 and will have even higher specifications. Samsung has always been the very Bastion of Google Android on the mobile platform and their development into producing devices running on the Windows platform I feel is very much an “earth shifting” change in the industry. Acer another bastion of Google Android mobile are also rumoured to be in the process of developing a high end Windows 10 tablet.

Therefore the above developments will push forward competition with manufacturers bringing out devices with ever higher specifications to the benefit of everybody including perhaps eventually us Trainz hobbyists. I feel that in the not too distant future our train simulator will be running on a tablet which we will cast to a large screen monitor and sound system.

yes, we can dream, we can dream
Bill

Well yes dream away but there is the laws of physics to overcome. Basically one of the main limiting factors for computer processors has always been heat. That’s the reason why gaming computer have large fans in their cases.

There are two basic functions that a computer does NAND Gate and NOR Gate. Everything else is built of combinations of these. On each cycle when you do a calculation you generate heat. Big super computers generate lots of heat. Memory needs more transistors, ever looked at the specification for a lap top generally speaking the gaming desktops have much more memory than the laptops. Again its because memory generates heat. The CPUs, the laptops and tablets use special low power ones read ones that don’t do as much work per second again because of heat.

For something like TANE running not very efficient home built models you need transistors and lots of them. You can set the performance sliders back if you like but at the end of the day to cope with sketchup made models you really do need a lot of transistors and that means heat.

The tablets and lap tops running things like a GTX 980m have a special GPU that has less than half the processing power of a GTX 980 basically because they can’t get rid of the heat.

So basically a lap top or tablet will never have the same performance as a desktop and if you think that a laptop is good enough to run TANE just wait until the next lot of content comes out with higher poly counts. I’ve just released a batch, they look very good but the poly count is way up there.

Cheerio Johnj

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.
John, with regard to your posting at #64 of this thread, I would respond by stating that like millions of others I am a person who uses computers as an indispensable aid to their work and an aid to their pleasure. Again like millions of others I do not wish to know the technicalities of their workings but very much wish know what it can do for me at present and into the future.

Therefore with every respect to your above posting can I draw your attention to a section of one paragraph within it.

So basically a laptop or tablet will never have the same performance as a desktop

I have always found throughout my long life that to state something will never happen has always proven to be a fallacy. As I have stated I am no computer geek but can I point you in the direction of how the advance of computer technology has in the last 10 years completely changed the perceptions of how my industry (being the heavy vehicle road transport industry) has developed and will develop.

Only a decade ago we were being informed that the computers would never be able to replace or replicate the power of the human mind especially in areas such as the driving of vehicles. And yet just this week here in Britain we have witnessed the first driverless 40 tonne heavy goods vehicles being trialled on the UK's busiest motorway namely the M6.

My company has had the privilege of working with the government health and safety executive and the office of road and rail in bringing forward the risk assessments that when compiled had to be met by the producers of these vehicles before those trials could be carried out. The foregoing has been a long and complex operation as the computer technology in those vehicles had need to replicate every thought, decision and action that the human mind would take while driving those vehicles in all road conditions and circumstances.

So far those trials have been 100% successful and in that proving technology can match and even outstrip the human mind in any number of situations, something we were informed would always be impossible and would never happen less than a decade ago. Further to that the technology had to be encompassed within the normal instrument panel of the vehicles as all other driver controls have to remain as of standard. Again the foregoing has been successfully carried out.

I left school at the age of fifteen in 1959 and I can well remember my science master telling us in our last lesson that we would spend our lives in an ever developing and changing world. He advised that one day man would land and walk on the moon but that would not be in our lifetime, but in all probability within the lifetime of our children. Ten years later mankind did walk on the moon, something that highly respected science master informed us would never happen in our lifetime.

Cheerio Bill

 

[pware]

I can well remember my science master telling us in our last lesson that we would spend our lives in an ever developing and changing world. He advised that one day man would land and walk on the moon but that would not be in our lifetime, but in all probability within the lifetime of our children. Ten years later mankind did walk on the moon, something that highly respected science master informed us would never happen in our lifetime.

Which indicates the futility of trying to predict the future, especially in the areas of science and technology. The invention of the transistor in 1949 (which was regarded as a "novelty" of dubious practical value at the time) completely overturned the world of electronics and directly led to the modern computer. I note that Twitter is 10 years old today, and Facebook is a little bit older - who would have predicted the effects that social media would have on society and, it seems, history?

Which makes "today" the most interesting time in history.

 

[johnwhelan]

Hi everybody.
John, with regard to your posting at #64 of this thread, I would respond by stating that like millions of others I am a person who uses computers as an indispensable aid to their work and an aid to their pleasure. Again like millions of others I do not wish to know the technicalities of their workings but very much wish know what it can do for me at present and into the future.

Therefore with every respect to your above posting can I draw your attention to a section of one paragraph within it.


I have always found throughout my long life that to state something will never happen has always proven to be a fallacy. As I have stated I am no computer geek but can I point you in the direction of how the advance of computer technology has in the last 10 years completely changed the perceptions of how my industry (being the heavy vehicle road transport industry) has developed and will develop.

Only a decade ago we were being informed that the computers would never be able to replace or replicate the power of the human mind especially in areas such as the driving of vehicles. And yet just this week here in Britain we have witnessed the first driverless 40 tonne heavy goods vehicles being trialled on the UK's busiest motorway namely the M6.

My company has had the privilege of working with the government health and safety executive and the office of road and rail in bringing forward the risk assessments that when compiled had to be met by the producers of these vehicles before those trials could be carried out. The foregoing has been a long and complex operation as the computer technology in those vehicles had need to replicate every thought, decision and action that the human mind would take while driving those vehicles in all road conditions and circumstances.

So far those trials have been 100% successful and in that proving technology can match and even outstrip the human mind in any number of situations, something we were informed would always be impossible and would never happen less than a decade ago. Further to that the technology had to be encompassed within the normal instrument panel of the vehicles as all other driver controls have to remain as of standard. Again the foregoing has been successfully carried out.

I left school at the age of fifteen in 1959 and I can well remember my science master telling us in our last lesson that we would spend our lives in an ever developing and changing world. He advised that one day man would land and walk on the moon but that would not be in our lifetime, but in all probability within the lifetime of our children. Ten years later mankind did walk on the moon, something that highly respected science master informed us would never happen in our lifetime.

Cheerio Bill

There is a difference between soft things such as the government will never increase pensions and the laws of physics, soft things can change, the laws of physics are extermely unlikely to. The best we can hope for is to circumvent them. At the moment we use electrons flowing through transistors or sitting on a capacitor to store a memory state. Trouble is we have to use the laws of probability since we can never be certain where an electron is at any particular time. We can say where most of a group will be but as the number of electrons gets smaller so the laws of probability grow less useful and thats the limitation we are currently hitting in computers. You need a fair number for computing to work and that's why a desktop will always outperform a laptop or tablet.

One science master can be wrong when guessing or predicting the future, the laws of physics have been around much longer and had many many people trying to disprove them or refine them. I'll put my money on those laws of physics, mind you my knowledge of electrons comes from a degree in Chemistry which I obtained not so long after you left school.

Cheerio John

 

[johnwhelan]

Note to Bill

In road haulage terms moving five hundred standard shipping containers by road a thousand miles will always consume more energy than using a train in the US with double stacked containers at the same speed.

The double stacked containers slip stream each other so less wind resistance and rail has gentler gradients so you need less power to accelerate and to slow down. These are both examples of the laws of physics and no matter what the wishful thinking is I can’t see containers being switched from rail to road for energy saving reasons assuming the rail can directly connect the port or whatever to the destination.

Cheerio John

 

[pcas1986]

There is a difference between soft things such as the government will never increase pensions and the laws of physics, soft things can change, the laws of physics are extremely unlikely to. ...

Hmm. I keep viewing docos on quantum mechanics where the laws of physics, as we know them, don't seem to apply. For example, those things (don't know the name) that exist in multiple places at the same time and are only known to exist in one of those places when they are observed. Sounds daft but it's true.

So, I've lived through some of the exciting changes you guys mentioned, and that convinces me that there is always something new just waiting to be discovered.

Speaking of NAND gates - I wonder when we will start seeing computers based on tristate devices. 0 = false, 1 = true, I can handle, but false, true and ?

 

[pware]

Quantum Physics is still part of the laws of physics just not part of human common sense. The term you were looking for is "superposition" where a particle can be in two different states (or positions) at the same time. This doesn't just apply to subatomic particles, it can apply to larger groupings as well - if you want to "blow your mind" on this matter, look up "Bose-Einstein condensates".

On the matter of computers using more than just 0 and 1, they have already made major steps towards a quantum CPU which uses superposition to store both a 1 and a 0 at the same time in a single bit of data where a conventional CPU could only store a 1 or a 0.

Scary!

 

[pcas1986]

...

On the matter of computers using more than just 0 and 1, they have already made major steps towards a quantum CPU which uses superposition to store multiple states from 1 to 255 in a single bit of data where a conventional CPU could only store a 1 or a 0.

Scary!

The potential for storing large amounts of information is incredible.

 

[pware]

The potential for storing large amounts of information is incredible.

Not just storage but calculations. A typical CPU given the task of multiplying all the numbers from 1 to 255 by 2, for example, can only perform that task on one number at a time and has to repeat the operation 255 times. A quantum computer will be able to perform the calculation just once - on all 255 numbers at the same time.

 

[pcas1986]

I wonder how it does that. John's earlier comment on NAND gates reminded me of an assignment at uni (as a mature student) where, using a logic simulator, we had to write some code to add two numbers using NAND and other basic gates. As I recall, I did it in 27 clock cycles whereas the class genius did it in 11.

 

[pware]

As I recall, I did it in 27 clock cycles whereas the class genius did it in 11.

There is always a showoff in every class!

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.

Note to Bill

In road haulage terms moving five hundred standard shipping containers by road a thousand miles will always consume more energy than using a train in the US with double stacked containers at the same speed.

The double stacked containers slip stream each other so less wind resistance and rail has gentler gradients so you need less power to accelerate and to slow down. These are both examples of the laws of physics and no matter what the wishful thinking is I can’t see containers being switched from rail to road for energy saving reasons assuming the rail can directly connect the port or whatever to the destination.

Cheerio John

John, of course I can only speak for Britain and Europe in regard to the logistics of transporting containers or anything else by road or rail. However, everyday here in the UK many thousands of containers are moved by road as a preference to rail transportation by way of the fact that we are geographically a relatively small country with a very high density population as are many other countries in Europe.

Transporting freight by rail has increased in volume in recent years but it is still less than 10% of the UKs total transport requirement. The reason for the foregoing is the simple fact that very few companies have direct rail links into their factories, warehouses or retail outlets.

Therefore in the above, freight consignments have to travel by road to regional rail centres and then loaded onto the rail freight cars. The consignment then has to be transported by train to a regional rail freight centre as near as possible to the ultimate destination. Finally it then has to be offloaded again onto road transport for delivery. The foregoing is time consuming and expensive by way of needing three levels of handling as opposed to one when the entire journey is made by road.

John, as you point out in your posting above there is a fuel saving to be made in the above method of transport. However, the foregoing is always very much offset by the added time taken leading to large amounts of consignment stock continuously being held within in the rail transport system.

However, in what is known within the road transport industry as “supply side Logistics” the above supply chain stock holding is eliminated. By example, a manufacturer of disposable nappies will get each day from his national supermarket chain customer a “call over order” which will be a resupply order for what has been sold through all their outlets in the previous twenty four hours.

That consignment is dispatched within a few hours by a road transport trunking operation to the customer's central distribution centre. The consignment is then sorted along with other consignments and immediately by way of a second trunking operation usually carried out by the same vehicles dispatched within hours that night to the customers regional distribution centres where it is again sorted and added to other consignments and dispatched on the delivery vehicles for next morning arrival to the customer stores.

The above means that goods are manufactured, transported to the customers retail outlets and then put up on the shelves for sale all within 12 to 18 hours of the original call over order to the supplier. The foregoing save both supplier and customer from having literally millions of pounds continuously allocated to stock held in the supply chain.

That stated, even the added fuel cost of the above system are now being addressed through the trials of the driverless heavy goods vehicles. The M6 motorway trials if successful are designed to bring about the formation of “individual heavy vehicle road trains”. The foregoing is seeing driverless trunking vehicles moving in convoys of up to 30 in total, one metre apart and wirelessly communicating with one another with the front vehicle deflecting wind drag from all the other vehicles. Any individual vehicle will be able to leave or join the convoy at any intersection depending on the computerised instructions given by way of the company traffic controllers at a central hub. That vehicle will then proceed individually to its own separate destination

Certainly exciting times in the British and European road haulage industry which I would not miss for the world.

Bill

 

[pware]

A typical CPU given the task of multiplying all the numbers from 1 to 255 by 2, for example, can only perform that task on one number at a time and has to repeat the operation 255 times. A quantum computer will be able to perform the calculation just once - on all 255 numbers at the same time.

I wonder how it does that.

Because each bit in a quantum computer stores both a "1" and a "0" simultaneously, then 8 bits of memory can store ALL the numbers from 0 to 255 at the same time. By multiplying the contents of those memory bits by 2 (in the example used) a quantum computer can perform the entire operation in a single step. The tricky part is to be able to maintain the superposition of the stored data bits because external factors such as thermal energy can cause them to collapse to single "1s" and "0s" - just like the observer causing a quantum particle that is in many positions to collapse to a single position.

A company in Canada has, they claim, built a computer that uses this very effect to perform quantum calculations much faster than a normal conventional computer. Both NASA and Google have each bought one (reportedly for several million $ each). There is some controversy over whether or not the computer really is a "quantum computer" as the evidence for the claim is somewhat "sketchy". It does appear to perform exceptionally well in some areas but not in others. There is now a branch of computer science that is devoted to designing the special algorithms that would be needed for quantum computing.

If quantum computers do become a reality, then there are many areas where they would be enormously useful - simulations for example. But not all areas would see a benefit.

 

[clam1952]

And I doubt you will get Quantum computing in a Ipod or Tablet. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...is-100-million-times-faster-than-your-PC.html

 

[pware]

Yes, thank you Malc - that is the computer I was thinking of. Although from the image it is a lot bigger than I somehow thought it would be - like the mainframes of the 1960s.

As far as predicting their possible future appearance in tablets, and phones - it is a brave forecaster who would use the word "never". Like the IBM execs who "never" thought that there would be a market for the new IBM-PC or the British experts who thought that there would "never" be much use for the newly developed digital computers, outside of one for the Tax Office and perhaps one for the Commonwealth Office.

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.
Well, I am the last person who would wish to comment on quantum computing, for as I have already stated in this thread I am a heavy computer user rather than someone who wishes to have knowledge of their inner workings. That stated, no one can do anything else but notice that computer science marches on at an ever-increasing pace. It was stated by a forum member earlier in this thread “that these are the most exciting times to live through in regards to how technology is changing our lives” which is a sentiment I would 100% agree with.

In the mid 1980s it was the PC which first brought computer technology into our homes which was followed by the Internet in the 90s which revolutionized the way we could communicate by way of that PC technology. However, in my humble opinion the above two changes have been dwarfed by the introduction of the smartphone and tablet which has brought forward mobile mass communication to billions throughout the world and changed the whole way in which we live.

Mobile technology has allowed all of us to commute with almost anyone at any time and from anywhere either by word or by text. However, most importantly for this forum it has introduced a new, more straightforward and less expensive way of gaming which has been embraced by billions worldwide by way of their mobile devices. Virtually all game software producers have moved on to the mobile platform including dovetail games who through their new tie up with Mad Catz have placed their first products on Google Android and the Apple platform only this week.

However, on this forum there seems to be a reluctance among many to see the full Trainz simulator version (T:ane) move on to the mobile platform even though the processing technology may (arguably) shortly be available or maybe even be already out there. Microsoft themselves are of recent leading the charge in the mobile field with the introduction of the high end Surface Pro 4 tablet with Samsung and LG joining them as high end tablet competition.

So, why is it that I seem to detect a reluctance to see our simulator and hobby on nothing else but the declining PC platform by so many on this forum. Mobile gaming is no longer restricted to small screens and poor sound systems and its introduction on to the mobile platform would bring a huge new market within its grasp.Therefore, why the reluctance, or are my detection sensors wrong.

Bill

 

[boc61]

Speaking for only myself, I'm not interested in mobile gaming. I don't own a mobile device and I don't want one. I'm quite happy with my declining PC. In fact I am about to buy a new one and do my small part to stem that decline.