Loads Not Showing On Flatcars

railsong

New member
I am using TANE build 78667 and am running AI trains. It seems that when loading a product on a consist of flatcars and using the outside view of the train the product being loaded only shows up on about 5 or 6 of the cars being loaded. When using the close in view the loads show up OK on each car viewing. When going out the loads disappear on the further cars from the view I am using. I tried increasing the draw distance but that didn't help. Kind of unusual to look at the train from outside view and only part of the cars show the product. Any ideas of what could be going on? :confused:
 
This is going to sound funny but its all got to do with the LOD of the Load - not much you can do about this with out you doing some major editing of the asset.

Can I put on the record that I hate LOD, and this is a very example of way.
 
Hi All
Unfortunately, we have had to automatically cull commodities on industries and rolling stock to help improve performance. This was particularly important on high density routes (e.g. Kings Cross on the ECML) where you could have an extremely large number of commodity assets (in this case, passengers) visible in the scene with no LOD and no culling. Even when on the other side of the tunnels from the station, you would still be loading every one of those passengers at full detail, even though they are not visible. Or when you are 15km from the station (with draw distance set to 15KM).

Can I put on the record that I hate LOD, and this is a very example of way.

We've only had to implement such a system because creators refuse to use LOD.

If every asset had a good LOD on it, including culling objects at an appropriate distance, we wouldn't need to implement such a system. A good LOD shouldn't be seen, or shouldn't be obviously seen, in most cases. It does take a bit of work, but the end result is that you can include more detail in your content, or a longer draw distance, for similar performance.

If you play any other current games on your computer (as in, ones that don't use 3rd party generated content, such as various FPS games and similar), every object will have some form of LOD. Take that LOD out, and they become unplayable.

LOD doesn't have to be seen, in fact it really shouldn't be seen. But it is a requirement. This is the very hard truth of creating artwork for games. Without it, everyone suffers with bad performance.

You may not see it by just putting LOD on one asset. You will see it by putting LOD on every asset (apart from the minority of assets that are low enough poly to not need it). But if you don't use it, we need to start taking more extreme measures to help ensure that our customers can obtain performance that is somewhat reasonable...

Regards
 
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Can I put on the record that I hate LOD

Can I ask why? LOD has enabled me to run 120K+ polygons of locomotive with very little impact on performance, not to mention if done right, it's almost impossible to notice the difference aside from the fact that all those 3D bolts and bevels and boiler flues aren't hitting on your performance when you're half a mile away.
 
Yes you can - for me it has a lot to do with the how my brain process visual information - its very uncommon but I do not have as most people do binocular vision what my Ophthalmologists calls an alternator - my brain only uses the vision from one eye at a time. Now this may sound strange but my brain can also switch from one eye to another with pardon the pun almost blinding speed or at times not use the visual input one eye at all. Now this part gets freaky and annoys the carp out of people as it freaks them right out my eyes can move independently of each other. Now over time I have learnt to control this to some degreed and also use to my advantage.

I can watch with no problem at all and once set up with very little head movement a laptop on my lap and a TV across the room both at almost the same time.

My depth perception is a bit different to most people but I do have it. I have issues around strong light sources and even have to wear sun glasses and hats even inside sometime. 3D movies and 3D TV have me stumped, do not work for me at and cause head aches . I annoy people who insist that you look them in the eye while talking to them as this I can do this and still have the eye on something else.

I am right eye dominate which has overtime meant my left eye has gone past being lazy and now have developed way I call council worker eye and now only works when it has to. and I do often walk around with only one eye open.

The changes of LOD and the change in the details levels in front of my eyes is so notable and to me annoying - When it comes to trainz I am train watcher - I never use cab mode I like to watch a train move across the screen in a nice surrounding. Now I could rant about this for ever but it to me is so annoying when you watching a train snake around a some nice curves and the train it self keeps physicality changing.

Can I ask why? LOD has enabled me to run 120K+ polygons of locomotive with very little impact on performance, not to mention if done right, it's almost impossible to notice the difference aside from the fact that all those 3D bolts and bevels and boiler flues aren't hitting on your performance when you're half a mile away.
 
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Given that PC have been around for a long time perhaps your ophthalmologist can suggest something, if indeed some remedy/solution, with a PC, to that condition has been found.

We have to use LOD, as has been commented on. My flight simulator would never function is every leaf of every tree had to be rendered when I am 3000ft above them. That particular program has airports that are so detailed they put large rail stations to shame . But the skilled artists of the vendor (ORBX) spend a lot of time using LOD to allow reasonable performance despite detail down to the 2cm level. Creating a single airport can take over a year. But artists are stubborn.
 
The solution is not using LOD would not be like some magic show with rabbits popping out of hats.

No we do not have to use LOD we did not have it in the old days and all worked fine even with super detailed models.

Now I would not have a problem with LOD so much if it all worked the same but it does not, it is so annoying to me when your watching a train and all of a sudden two locos of a consist just vanish, carriage loose there loads or all parts of the train just all of a sudden pop up out of know where.
 
The solution is not using LOD would not be like some magic show with rabbits popping out of hats.

No we do not have to use LOD we did not have it in the old days and all worked fine even with super detailed models.

Now I would not have a problem with LOD so much if it all worked the same but it does not, it is so annoying to me when your watching a train and all of a sudden two locos of a consist just vanish, carriage loose there loads or all parts of the train just all of a sudden pop up out of know where.

We did have to use it, but it wasn't enforced before like it is now.

What you are seeing is a poor implementation of LOD, which can also lead to awful performance as full objects are brought up into a scene in chunks. A good example are some of the city building models we see which appear suddenly when we reach a scene. With the older versions, the issue wasn't quite as apparent because we didn't have the long draw distance that we now have in T:ANE. With the longer draw distances, we can have cities 15km away. If there is no LOD this can really cause poor performance as the simulation attempts to draw the buildings at that distance. The newer building methods also allow for more complex models with higher resolution textures which also need to be drawn in real time. With no LOD, the models will cause unbearable stutters worse than we had in TS12.

To get around this, the LOD structure more strictly enforced. In TS12 and before, people could create models which had the required LOD targets, but instead of using actual decimated meshes for each target they used the same base model and called it LOD0.im, LOD1.im, etc. This got around the error messages, which were introduced in TS12 because there was no actual mesh check. T:ANE now checks the meshes too to ensure that they meet the standard.

The downside to this enforcement means we need to update older assets which either don't have any LOD at all and recreate those that were done improperly in the first place. The upside of course to this extra work is better performance and better looking models too that don't act like puppets that appear suddenly in the scene.

I'm sorry to hear of your vision problem. I can relate a little to this as I have double vision and nystagmus caused from Parkinson's Disease. The constant eye twitching, which I can control when I am not too tired, makes reading books and sheet music very difficult even with prism-enhanced glasses. The double-vision too is made worse through fatigue, which makes driving long distance difficult.

John
 
I agree with the OP that the hotfix 2 culling of loads is horrible, especially for ones which define the outline of the train- containers in particular. Not 100% sure but the HF2 implementation doesn't appear to allow even well configured loads, with LOD, to be visible for a sensible distance at the default detail settings. I would like to see a way in which loads that are essential to the visible profile of the train (a new config tag, perhaps?) to be treated differently to those that are internal only, such as passengers or coal loads.

R3
 
Well I beg to differ, I edit a lot of assets in my working version of TANE to break LOD and on testing it all seem to work a lot better than a default TANE install with the LOD still in place.

Do I need to point out that some of the rolling stock and locomotives that are included with or sold as add on packs to TANE by N3V do not include LOD.
We did have to use it, but it wasn't enforced before like it is now.


John
 
Well I beg to differ, I edit a lot of assets in my working version of TANE to break LOD and on testing it all seem to work a lot better than a default TANE install with the LOD still in place.

Do I need to point out that some of the rolling stock and locomotives that are included with or sold as add on packs to TANE by N3V do not include LOD.

I'm glad your computer can handle an unlimited number of triangles and textures. However, for the rest of the world, there are limits on how much can be handled. You will either need to limit your draw distance, and other detail settings, or limit the number of triangles and textures being displayed. The latter is preferred, via the use of LOD. There is absolutely NO reason for a locomotive to be 90,000 triangles when it's 15KM away (or 1KM away!). And now imagine, say, 10 locomotives with 60,000 triangles (600,000 triangles total) in that 15KM (lets say 2 on the player's train, and the other 8 located 5KM away), plus 200 wagons (for a 1980s+ era route) of an average of 15,000 triangles each (so 4,500,000 triangles there) (lets say 50 on the player's train, and 150 located 5KM away), plus an average triangle count of 50,000 triangles per baseboard with the route being 3 baseboards wide for that distance of 15km (that gives 62.5 baseboards, which gives 3,125,000 triangles).

This all adds up to a total of 8,225,000 triangles in your scene. Most computers will generally max out at about 2,000,000 to 3,000,000 triangles if I recall right (TS12 generally maxed out at about 1 million to 2 million). So we have a problem here, either we limit draw distance, or limit triangles.

LOD everything so it comes to an average of 150 triangles for the locos, plus 50 for the wagons, and 1000 per baseboard beyond 1KM.
Locos: 121,200
Wagons: 757500
Scenery: 209500

Now our total scene triangle count is 1,088,200. That's a LOT less power required to process the same scene. Plus at those triangle levels you should have just 1 texture per object at an extremely low res (basically just screenshots taken from each direction of the model, and applied to simple boxes). This doesn't even include the progressive drops in LOD as the object gets further away, it simply assumes a drop from full detail to a minimum at ~1KM. This figure would get lower in the scene because of the progressive drops in LOD. This also doesn't count textures, however these should be kept to an absolute minimum anyway. A traincar may have more due to alpha numbers, windows, etc - however scenery should have only 1 or 2 depending on the design - mesh libraries with shared textures on similar assets, especially for tiled textures, are a way to help with performance.

It's not hard to make a LOD that drops you down to below 200 triangles within 1-2KM of the camera. As above, it's just a box with pictures on it.

For example, arriving into Lilydale on the Healesville route causes a large impact to performance. This is entirely due to the lack of lod on the surrounding scenery. It's a relatively built up area (for that route anyway), with most buildings being quite detailed. Had I had the time to build a full set of new buildings (particularly houses), or at least provide LODs for the existing buildings, this would have greatly improved. OTOH, arriving into Healesville (which is a little less built up, but with more objects with LOD around the yard) has less of an impact.

You'll find that every locomotive and wagon used with Healesville has some form of LOD on them. I can honestly say that I saw massive performance improvements in sessions when LODs were implemented on the locos whilst in development. Even with the relatively inefficient LODs used (they simply don't go low enough on most of them).

OTOH, there are built-in assets that we simply didn't have time to either develop replacements for, or at least develop LOD for. Any new built content by N3V for TANE will have LOD (unless it's an exceedingly simple mesh). Much of the new built content from 3rd party creators also has LOD. However there's also a fair bit of DLS content that was used due to lack of more modern equivalents, and hence may have less effective or no LOD. Unfortunately, developing several hundred models isn't something we had time to do.

As to the commodities, as I noted before, if you refuse to use LOD, we will need to do something to ensure our customers can achieve reasonable performance. In the case of commodities, we have had to take more drastic actions. Hopefully with the implementation of good LODs, we will see improvements to performance and these sorts of measures can be reduced or removed.

As a note, any object with a Trainz-Build number of 4.2 MUST have LOD. Removing LOD will make it faulty. It also needs to reduce by at least 20% per LOD, and end below a set threshold (500 triangles IIRC).
 
I only set the draw distance to 3KM - there is not many places on the ground where you can stand and see a train 15km away, not may trainz routes either so I do not understand why we need a draw distance of 15 km anyway. Plus there is limits on vision distance due to the curve of the earth something that most simulator do no take into consideration.
 
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...so why don't you just remove LOD yourself and let the rest of us who enjoy having our PC components as solids rather than liquids carry on?
 
Like said been doing that for ages - no melt down in fact vast improvement in performance - Really have to worry that under the old jet engine LOD was not an issued we did not have it or need it but with this newer slicker one we now need LOD to cope. And if we had Open GL support I would be able to get even better performance.

TS12 with Open GL still out performs the Current TANE (no LOD) running under DirectX - but since the windows environment is based around the DirectX platform we are sort of stuck I guess.

As to the detail in the locos all of Marls betas in 2004 and no LOD and ans still beta the detail of some of the locos today.

...so why don't you just remove LOD yourself and let the rest of us who enjoy having our PC components as solids rather than liquids carry on?
 
I guess I'm not sure if I am running Open GL or DirectX. Where can you set which environment you want to use? I think in TS12 there was a setting in the settings somewhere, but I can't seem to find it in TANE. I guess I could just load the products into boxcars where you can't see the load anyway....
 
I guess I'm not sure if I am running Open GL or DirectX. Where can you set which environment you want to use? I think in TS12 there was a setting in the settings somewhere, but I can't seem to find it in TANE. I guess I could just load the products into boxcars where you can't see the load anyway....

You have to be running DirectX. Open/GL is not supported yet in the retail releases.

You set the environment by clicking on the Menu then Environment... in Surveyor or in your Session.

John
 
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