Line Protection Problem

Ben1337

Trainz operator
Sometimes, Line protection can be as simple as signals along a stretch of line http://www.cbrd.co.uk/international/newzealand/img/29.jpg.

othertimes, the signaling system can be as complex as http://www.corbisimages.com/images/67/477DAAEB-D65D-4DF3-AFFF-3F435CBBE352/42-15537265.jpg

But, I have a complex problem.

The problem involves this layout
complexstation.png

The Problem with this station is is that there's an unsignalled high speed line (the light blue line), many crossovers (similer to the crossover that crosses over the light blue line (that extends 1 and a quarter miles) when heading west that crosses over the light blue line), there's also crossover lines that are mainly unsignalled for the blue line.

So, practically, you're looking at the station business end of the Lowfell Station and yard.

So, what job opperations are performed at the astation?

The opperations that go on at the yard, are pretty simple and straightforward, but are generally hard and wreakless things to do on the railway.

Platform 1 opperations

So, Platform 1 (the terminal platform) handles terminating loco and MU trains.

Immidiately, you see platform 1 is a terminus, so, a DMu can head in from the west and crossover into the platform, reverse direction via the driver walking to the other cab, and driving back out of the terminal platform and back onto the platform.

But, I said it can handle both locomotives and a rake of coaches.

This is possibly the most dangerous and wreakless things you can do on the mainline.

The reason is is because some passenger trains don't have a cab car nessessirly placed in the optimum position for best results (At the front of the train, behind the locomotive), thus they would have to follow these steps to get the train into the platform.
  1. Drive the train into the west runaround loop beside the yard (loco is at the front of the train, piloting it).
  2. Uncouple the train and head round the train, avoiding the mainline as much as possible (the track configureation makes this possible).
  3. Couple the locomotive at the rear of the train.
  4. Push the train accross two mainline tracks into the platform (the mainline would be busy with all sorts of trains, the driver would have a restricted field of view from the back of the train and may not be able to see the 2 mainlines).
  5. The train arrives in the platform safe and sound.
  6. The train can depart after unloading and depart the platform safe and sound.
The only thing the driver would be able to rely on to stay safe, is if the signals would be cleared (turned to green), but even then the driver would have to stop the front of the train at the signal.

As I said eartlier, there's many crossovers, not many signals, so the signalbox must be able to opperate signals for up to and beyond 1.25 miles down the track to keep the trains safe.

Platform 2 Opperations

Platform 2's opperations are rather quite simple, but can be easier said then done, since this is a through platform.

platform 2 is designated to West bound trains only, so the train arrives in platofmr 2, it has to wait for the signal to clear, then the train can set off.

The problem here is again, the signal is protecting the trains from mainline trains, so again, if any trains are on that main center line, the signals would have to be red to allow the mainline trains to proceed to the next signal interupted.

The signal is also protecting the crossover, which allows the trains going to platoform 1 to enter without trains going to platform 2 chrashing into it.

But, there's another signal protecting the exit line from platform 1.

Platform 3 opperations

We move to platform 3.

Platform 3 is again, a through platform, but again, there's opperation delays with this one as well.

Platform 3 is designated to east-bound trains comming from the west.

the only opperation difficulties involved here, are the ones that head into the station, this is comming from the west enterance.

the train speeds past the runaround, but towards the end, is a signal.

This signal protects Eastbound trains from chrashing into platform 1 bound trains.

This signal also serves as a pourpose for when DMUs bound for platform 1 crashing into departing platform 2 trains.

There is another reason for this line we will talk about in a moment.

Platform 4 Opperations

platform 4 is different, again, it serves as a terminal for East-going trains which wish to go west.

But, as you can see on the plan, platform 4 is a lot longer then platform 1.

This is so that longer trains can service here, and the shorter trains filter into the platform 1.

Platform 4 can also be served as an extra through platform since it links up with platform 3's line after the station.

As always, DMUs can always have the simpler rules.

the DMU can enter the station, no problem, the driver can walk to the other end of the train no problem, and head out of the platform no problem, but only if the traick heading from the west enterance into platform 3 is clear (this is delt with by the station signal on platform 4.)

heading over to the West Exit is another problem altogether, If the tracks are cleared, the DMU must pass over the east-bound train's track.

But, it also has to get over the platform 1 train's (this is the line heading from the runaround into platform 1) track to get there, so both the runaround protection signal and the platform 3's track signals will have to go red to protect the line.

But, that's not all of the signals that has to go green, platform 2's signal, the mainline enterance signal will have to go red as well as platform 1's exit signal would have to go to danger or the signal protecting last junction before the exit will have to red.

But, with every DMU, there always has to be a locomotive to make things more complex for a signalman.
  1. So, the locomotive pulls into platform 1 with its rake of coaches.
  2. The locomotive loads up.
  3. The locomotive had run runaround its train for its journy back west, since there is not enough room to ahve a headrunaround at that end of the yard, it has to go off to the coal mine branchline (this branch loops off to the left of the mainline and curls abck on its self and heads west to a coal mine in the hills) and have that as a headrunaround for the locomotives.
  4. It then has to head back to platform 4 andaround its train without going into platform 3 (the track layout also amkes this acieveable), because it has to go past platform 4 on a runaround track, it has to go the wrong way down the line for a distence unti. it reaches a junction which allows the locomotive to pass its coaches witohut interfearing the other trains much.
  5. The locomotive then can back up to its coaches safely and couple within the yard parimeters.
Mainline Operations

The mainline is the most awkward to play about with, as I said before, the track is 1.25 miles long (so, it extends the said distence east from the station)

This would make it difficult because there's literally no signals along the line for 1.25 miles down the track, so if there was something bad that was about to hapen, you would ahve to set the signal 1.25 miles away to stop the train.

The mainline handles express freight opperations to pass freely through the station.

The mainline is also bi-directional, that means trains can enter from both ends of the network.

This means that if I was to put signals there, they could ahve to have a chrash.

Another thing to mention is that there's 2 crossovers half way between (one of them are on the diagram) that are signaled only on the cross line, so for an express to travel non-stop, the cross,line signals would have to be turned red, unfortunutely, one of these crossovers is a diverging junction, whcih means that if a train was trying to reach platform 2, and not planning to take a trip to the mines, the train could come to an abrupt hault for no real cause, however, if you remove the feature, there might be a dreadful chrash with a fast train.

Coal Mine Operations

yes, this is the final stage.

The coal mine is up in the hills north of the city (north is the bottom since the map is upside down).

The coal Mine supplies nice coal to the powerstation east of the station, but it takes oil from the west and so it has to watch for platform 4 locos on that branch.

Since empty coal trains comming from the west are west-bound have to cross over 2 lines, one bi-directional, another has trains east-bound, there could be potentional head-on collisions, but there are signals protecting the local outside line from collisions with passenger trains.

Empty Oil trains comming from the mines have to cross over platform 3's line, the curve involved with this is very tight curves measuring up to 100 meter radius (restricted to 15MPH speed limits).

the oil trains has to cross over the mainline ontot hew right side of the lkine to pass the station, which means there could be potentional collicions wityh platfdorm 3 and platform 4 trains, but there are signals to stop this happening.

Well... It does sound complex in theroy because of all of the movments, but will it work correctly with AI opperations?

I figured that the noly way to make this work at least feezible, is if all of the 1.5 miles of danger track involeved with these opperations is controlled by one signal box.

Problem is is that there's no single asset that's advanced enough to do the work alone without it taking over the entire session and forming a senareo out of it, making multiplayer or Iportal capability not feezible.

So, I got the mainline part working correctly, details are explained in this post: http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showpost.php?p=720664&postcount=6
 
Character Limit

Sorry for the long starting post, there is a lot of information to input into it, I am thinking that there is no simple answer to this problem, and I am not expecting one.

And wow, I actually hit the character limit.:D

I didn't even know there was one.
 
Yeah, I'm sure I mentioned that the yellow arrows were direction markers in the link at the bottom of my post.

to be honest, I don't think direction markers would help? This is because most of these problems are involved with the crossovers where the trains and signals can't see or detect the crossover. So they act as if they can't see that the 2 lines cross

And in fact, a crossover joining the runaround to platform 1 is actually a single slip or double slip set of points.
 
As they say, the sum of the parts equals the whole. Maybe adding a control element before and after each junction may help.

Your original post was very informative and obviously took a while to write. Complete explanations like yours are always easier to address.

Cheers and Good Luck :)

AJ
 
As they say, the sum of the parts equals the whole. Maybe adding a control element before and after each junction may help.
Hmm, Can you expand this idea AJ?
Your original post was very informative and obviously took a while to write. Complete explanations like yours are always easier to address.
Well, I did think things through, and even attempted it (only using driver commands, and a couple of experemental rules).
At first, I thought it would go off the first page because the forums didn't know how to solve my problem about the complxity of the opperations.
But, Yeah, you're right, they're easier to address and much less "guess the problem" sort of thread which I used to write early on.
Cheers and Good Luck :)
Thank you, and good luck to you too.:)
 
totally new AI Option

Well, I thought of a way, but it includes the "set signal extended rule" which would, intentionally re-build the signaling AI signaling system...

This signaling system option woiuld be built from the ground up, starting with the signal statuses.

problem with this is that it would interntionally be long, very complex and take long to code, and it wouldn't be fail-proof, like the built-in AI and practically hard to actually sort out what is happening.

But, it would improve the right indication to players and could, potentionally solve most problems mentioned in the first post.

Any other suggestions?
 
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Hi

What about the Set Multiple Signals rule which can be used to force a number of named signals to red when the train activates a named trigger? Perhaps it could be combined with a variable so that it only activates when a particular path, crossing the main line for example, is set? All signals on tracks conflicting with that path could then be set to red by the rule.

Regards

Brian
 
So, every signal with danger as being a certain variable?:eek:

P.s. how do you use the "Diamond Crossover" rule?
 
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Usually by placing red trackmarks and naming them in surveyor for example...

HST1

HST2
HST3

for High speed trains or express services

Coal 1

Coal 2

Coal 3
for coal or ballast trains


Freight 1
Freight 2
Freight 3
for random and other freight



Then this can make it easier for trains to navigate there way through complex junctions, use the navigate to trackmark to enable the right trains go the right way. The yellow direction markers are good for letting trains know what direction to go, but the red trackmarks are ideal for naming purposes, so each train goes to each destination individually.

As for diamond crossings, I have heard of the ATLS system used for level crossings, either Boat the creator or someone else who knows more about this might be able to help.

Good luck in solving your problem

Joe Airtime
 
Usually by placing red trackmarks and naming them in surveyor for example...

HST1

HST2
HST3

for High speed trains or express services

Coal 1

Coal 2

Coal 3
for coal or ballast trains


Freight 1
Freight 2
Freight 3
for random and other freight



Then this can make it easier for trains to navigate there way through complex junctions, use the navigate to trackmark to enable the right trains go the right way. The yellow direction markers are good for letting trains know what direction to go, but the red trackmarks are ideal for naming purposes, so each train goes to each destination individually.
Yeah, that's not the problem, the trains do find the right way.
As for diamond crossings, I have heard of the ATLS system used for level crossings, either Boat the creator or someone else who knows more about this might be able to help.
Yeah, I ahve tried it, but the problem for the runaround is is that the signals are placed in the wrong position to enable that to happen.

What I mean by that is that the trigger needs to be placed on the cross track going between the west runaround and signal, but the problem is is that there are other points between the crossovers and signal, the signals, by default are red, not green. So, for example, if the train was just doing shunting duties, the signal would not allow that train to pass the signal due to the trigger being on a different track.

But, if you put the trigger between the junction and the signal, then you get the problem of the train triggering mainline signals to go red to go red even though it will not need to go there, which will cause them to go red for no reason.

As the manual (that's included when you press the "?" in the trackside tab) displays, the ATLS diamond signal layout diagrams has no junctions inbetween the trigger, the crossings and signals.:eek: And the trigger is placed before the signal so the signal can get the green before the train arrives.

Just an observation.
 
hi mate
if you dl my route caboolture to rockhampton from the dls you will see the way i did the signals at the big places.

the whole route is signaled and works with 13+ AI trains and whatever i am driving.

it took me a long time to get it right

its easier for you to look at what i did , rather than me trying to explain

cheers
ron
 
I was thinking that perhaps you either have not enough signals, or too many. The AI tend to do things in a non-prototypical way. If you do things too complicated, they'll go on strike or completely ignore some of the signals and tie everything up in a knot.

If you don't have enough, the'll act like the artifically unintelligent beings they are and will quit on the spot and complain.

So having said that, try some signals at your crossovers where you go from the outside platforms to the coach yard. If this was my layout, being from the US, I'd use little yard signals at these places. You'd most likely use the shunting signals, or something similar.

If there's not enough room for a full sized signal, you could always use invisible signals. This has the added effect of giving you the option of putting in some of the important signals in the prototypical places if you want, and the extra ones being invisible so they don't get in the way.

It all boils down to sometimes thinking too hard about the problem can make things worse than they really are - been there and done that too many times.

I've signaled a few terminals like this on my current route using the methods outlined above, and have had great results.

John
 
Yeah, that's not the problem, the trains do find the right way.Yeah, I ahve tried it, but the problem for the runaround is is that the signals are placed in the wrong position to enable that to happen.

What I mean by that is that the trigger needs to be placed on the cross track going between the west runaround and signal, but the problem is is that there are other points between the crossovers and signal, the signals, by default are red, not green. So, for example, if the train was just doing shunting duties, the signal would not allow that train to pass the signal due to the trigger being on a different track.

But, if you put the trigger between the junction and the signal, then you get the problem of the train triggering mainline signals to go red to go red even though it will not need to go there, which will cause them to go red for no reason.

As the manual (that's included when you press the "?" in the trackside tab) displays, the ATLS diamond signal layout diagrams has no junctions inbetween the trigger, the crossings and signals.:eek: And the trigger is placed before the signal so the signal can get the green before the train arrives.

Just an observation.

Boat made the ASB (Active Signal Box) Crossover set of assets for use to secure diamond crossings. ;) More details and tutorials can be found on his website, http://www.boatztrainz.co.uk/. ;)

Regards.
 
hi mate
if you dl my route caboolture to rockhampton from the dls you will see the way i did the signals at the big places.

the whole route is signaled and works with 13+ AI trains and whatever i am driving.

it took me a long time to get it right

its easier for you to look at what i did , rather than me trying to explain

cheers
ron
Maybe there might be a session as well?
I was thinking that perhaps you either have not enough signals, or too many. The AI tend to do things in a non-prototypical way. If you do things too complicated, they'll go on strike or completely ignore some of the signals and tie everything up in a knot.

If you don't have enough, the'll act like the artifically unintelligent beings they are and will quit on the spot and complain.

So having said that, try some signals at your crossovers where you go from the outside platforms to the coach yard. If this was my layout, being from the US, I'd use little yard signals at these places. You'd most likely use the shunting signals, or something similar.

If there's not enough room for a full sized signal, you could always use invisible signals. This has the added effect of giving you the option of putting in some of the important signals in the prototypical places if you want, and the extra ones being invisible so they don't get in the way.

It all boils down to sometimes thinking too hard about the problem can make things worse than they really are - been there and done that too many times.

I've signaled a few terminals like this on my current route using the methods outlined above, and have had great results.

John
Yeah, I have issues with using more signals.

I placed signals where the trains should stop because if I put signals say between platform 1 and the station between the 2 crossovers, the trains could potentinally stop on the mainline tracks and jam everything up.
Boat made the ASB (Active Signal Box) Crossover set of assets for use to secure diamond crossings. More details and tutorials can be found on his website,
http://www.boatztrainz.co.uk/crossover.pdf

Regards.
Yeah, I'm not sure how to remidy this up, with relation to the last post, this crossover is more complex then boat's crossovers can handle with my current level of knoledge.

By an example as how ASB is inadiquate, take a look at these track layouts:
asb.png

ASB Standard Layout

complexstation2.png

Lowfell's track layout

So, to sum this problem up, Lowfell's high Speed Line and Crossover are linked together due to no signal seperating the track sections.

This makes the track signal section have to work and altogether to be able to interlock together.

P.S. I think I might upload a test rouite with the station and track in place as well as a session with all of the trains as well as route commands enabled onto the Download ststion so that you can figure it out on your version of trainz.
 
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Ben, I think you're right.

My Crossover was designed to just work on an isolated crossing. With junctions very close as well its gets tricky!

The layout you have really needs an 'ASB' designed specifically for the whole of that track plan.

That could probably be done. I'm currently designing ASB's to work the different junctions in My Sen City Layout... (Due out soon! - ish).

But they take scripting knowledge and a long time and... err, no.... I don't have any.

You may be able to protect some of your track with ASB's and my ATLS controllable Sen City Signals.... but it won't be easy!

You should ask nicely to Stagecoach. He's the oracle when it comes to actually using ATLS!

Boat
 
Ben, I think you're right.

My Crossover was designed to just work on an isolated crossing. With junctions very close as well its gets tricky!

The layout you have really needs an 'ASB' designed specifically for the whole of that track plan.

That could probably be done. I'm currently designing ASB's to work the different junctions in My Sen City Layout... (Due out soon! - ish).

But they take scripting knowledge and a long time and... err, no.... I don't have any.

You may be able to protect some of your track with ASB's and my ATLS controllable Sen City Signals.... but it won't be easy!

You should ask nicely to Stagecoach. He's the oracle when it comes to actually using ATLS!

Boat
Actually, I was thinking of having the signals themselves scripted, similer to VSR signals.

But a few slight adjustments.

The signals would be able to detect junction directions and show the correct signal aspects depending on the named junction settings.

The signal aspects could be completely indipendant on the junction alignment, depending on the user's preferance and detect other signals.

Rather then having an object do a specilised task, why not have one signal asset do the whole lot and have the meshes interchanagible.

But... this would need vast masses of scripting power, ones which I don't have. And I think I need a learning buddy to actually start learning trainzscript.

This could also limit its capability to work with other signals correctly.

A prototype signal design:
dangreroussignal.png


P.S. That's an idea boat, using ATLS to opperate the signals.
 
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Alright, I will check that out.

Since the AI went caput with the junctions and routing to the stations and ending up somewhere that it's not meant to be.:eek: Which I'm sure is a problem related to JCirron's post
 
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