I find TMR17 disappointing.

[narrowgauge]

I have been looking at TMR17 and trying to see it from the point of view of a non-Trainz user, a real Newbie.

I think that N3V lost the plot.

They had a ideal opportunity to grab those people that look at a normal Trainz route and turn away because it looked too complex or too time -consuming. Every DLC route is BIG, Complex and for someone new to the hobby, very off-putting. Not good examples. It doesn't help that the four routes that can be modified provide no information where and how to start, they just show the basic components. It appears that working knowledge of Trainz Surveyor is a pre-requisite for route making. If there are route making(or any) instructions I couldn't find them. Would it have been too difficult to include a text document providing the rudiments of route creation

In my assumed persona of a 70+ pensioner who has lashed out and bought TMR, and has a computer but not necessarily having cheap or easy internet access, I was sitting there wondering "what have I wasted my money on?". For '70+ year old pensioner" read in people of any age with the same restrictions.

On the subject of the demo setups, the support leg spline has been modified from the existing invisible track <KUID:-25:893> without renumbering it, the original was and still is in T:ane as usable 'OAK' sleeper track. If our newbie is gets to the stage of looking for the legs, having it labelled as 'Invisible track' is not conducive to having a happy customer. It seems so simple to have an item labelled 'table support legs' with a correct KUID.

No, I'm not impressed at all.

Peter

 

[wilts747]

I am the 70 year old pensioner and as I've said many times through this Forum the biggest shortfall is any versions of Trainz has been the lack of a proper User Manual in any format. Trainz TV has gone some way to addressing the shortfall once you have a handle on the basics but other than searching the likes of YouTube to get you started and the good will of other Trainz users through this Forum it's in at the deep end and a massive learning curve to often unfortunately very much on your own.

I appreciate manuals cost money and take time to draft, edit and publish but I do not believe there is the need for anything glossy just a few pages or video demonstrations showing how at access Trainz, create a new project and get your first train heading in the right direction after laying some track. Peter

 

[charlie3577]

In Trainz A New Era, there is a manual. It was included in physical format for the deluxe edition. It also includes manual on Surveyor.
http://www.trainzportal.com/files/TANE/trainz_a_era_manual_digital_en_150513.pdf

 

[wilts747]

Thank you Charlie3577, much appreciated. Yes I have read it and the previous versions for TS2012, TS2010 and so forth unfortunately they are little more use than the manual for my car which tells me where all the levers and switches are and what they do but not how to drive the thing and that is the problem with probably every Trainz manual. They explain, at times in considerable detail, what things are and what they do but seldom how to use anything. That's nothing new the same can be said for the majority of manuals where it would be reasonable to expect the user, as in the case of perhaps the car, would have an understanding of how to operate the thing beforehand.

However I'm not convinced in the case of the majority of software (OS, programs, games, utilities etc.) it is reasonable to make the same assumptions and I support my contentions by perusing the shelves of any good bookshop. For ever 100? 200? 500? books on software you will be lucky to find a single book on how to drive a car, operate a video recorder, use the washing machine etc. A few months into using Trainz hopefully most will have a reasonable idea of its capabilities and the same might be said for Window 10 and/or MS Office if you had never seen them before. However those first few months can be hard work on your own, and even with 9 years Trainz experience my skills with script is still a lot to be desired yet I've worked in excess of 40 years with computers.

Somehow we all eventually get bye with a Trainz Manual which in my view is a lot to be desired. I do however believe we could all enhance our enjoy of Trainz and get a great deal more from our interest with comprehensive guidence and documentation worth of Trainz. Peter

 

[pware]

... and that is the problem with probably every Trainz manual. They explain, at times in considerable detail, what things are and what they do but seldom how to use anything.

There is, of course, the tutorials that come with the program and the excellent video tutorials at Twitch TV but, in my experience, the best "how to drive Trainz" manual can be found in the various sections and threads of this forum.

The problem with a set "how to drive manual" is that it will only show you one way to do things. While there is only one set of road rules for car drivers that everyone has to follow, Trainz provides its "drivers" with an enormous sandbox in which to experiment and many different routes (pardon the pun) are possible.

There are many threads in these forums where the original poster has posed a problem that they have encountered and have received a number of responses giving many different solutions.

 

[philskene]

Peter --

I suspect you are asking two related questions:
1. How to use Surveyor.
2. How to use Surveyor to make model railroads.

As for the first, well Trainz Surveyor is probably the one of the most intuitive software to use. Having read the manual it's not all that difficult to do the basics - laying track, adding structures, terra-forming and texturing. The harder part, getting it all to look right, takes a bit more time and skills.

As for the second, N3V did ask me if I could write a basic primmer for constructing a model railroad. I'm not sure what the eventual decision was. Was it included somewhere in the TMR17 package?

If not it goes like this:

Creating Model Trainz Layouts
​

N3V asked if I would put together two or so paragraphs abut the methods I have used to construct model Trainz layouts.
_____

Method 1 -- Dig holes:

There is an excellent youtube video by Lee Ferr that shows the dig hole method of creating a model Trainz layout. Search you tube for “Trainz model movie” or follow this link (the video is best watched at full screen and in high definition 1080p):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_X5OvItoK0

This video was an inspiration for many of us. It certainly was for me and you can see the results in two of my layouts included in Trainz Model Railroads release.

In several layouts I have used (the heights are in Imperial units)
Walls: HUGE wall brick, spline: -57
Floor: x Floor 01: -55
Fascia: Wall 10m dark stone: -10
or: Marsz-I Spline 04 / 09 / 14 (25m wall): -24.5
Legs: Marsz-I (TRY) EL Support v07
Ceiling: pommie-sky7
Dig hole: Dighole 8 (4X8)
The legs are attached to invisible rail.
_____

Method 2 -- Terra-forming:

Instead of using dig holes to provide the illusion of a baseboard in a room, in my most recent layouts I have used terra-forming to lower the floor level to -55.

I find this method has three advantages:
For me terra-forming is quicker than creating the dig holes
It is easier to undo if the baseboard needs to be extended at a later date.
It is possible to make the baseboard fascia edges at 45 degree angles instead of the 90 degree angles dictated by the dig holes -- see, for example, “The Klozett RRCo” and “The Hoofhearted and Smelz RRCo” narrow gauge layouts.

In these layouts I have used:
Terra-forming floor: -55
Fascia: Model Trainz Fascia, one thick: -59.5
Floor texture: Model Trainz tile floor texture
_____

There are many more custom made assets on the Download Station specifically made for use in model layouts. The only suggestions I would make are:
Try to make it actually look like a model railroad. The use of red brick walls, for example, will enhance this effect.
Try to make it interesting. Interactive industries that are interlinked and tracks at different levels will certainly help add interest.
Use only content that comes built-in to the basic T:ANE or is from the Download Station. This removes the need for downloaders to undertake the great and time consuming search to the far corners of the Universe for that one missing dependency.
Small can indeed be beautiful. And faster and easier to complete.
Finally never be disheartened. Remember what a wise person said some time ago. “Trainz routes are never finished. The author just eventually gives up.”

Good luck.

Phil Skene
Adelaide
November 2016

 

[narrowgauge]

Phil

I didn't know you were an Adelaide native. Off topic, I know but what suburb?

On topic

The problem that I was exposing is as follows:-

I am (pretending to be) a 70 year old pensioner belatedly interested in train modelling like I did way back in time. I have a reasonably fast machine donated by one of my sons. I see TMR advertised and devote some of my pension to buying it. I work my way through the installation, start the program and there everything stops. Nothing is intuitive, there is nothing to guide me, if there are instructions, they are not obvious and I don't see them, can't find them. I look at the sample with walls and tables, nothing there will tell me how to work with digholes, the table legs are called 'Invisible track' so they are obviously not table legs. Being a 'newbie' I don't know that there is a setting to tell me what the KUID is, in fact nothing tells me what a KUID is anyway. I could go on.....

Back to the fifteen years in Trainz , Me

The problem is that you and I and all the wonderful people working with Trainz are used to digging out the hidden secrets or asking about them on the forum and we can't see the program from the point of view of an older ( or younger) person who is not used to the computer intensive present day life. Heck, they have a struggle with mobile phones. Perhaps my post heading was misleading, there is nothing wrong with TMR but there is a lot wrong with the way it is presented.

Consider your post above, someone used to Trainz would understand what it is about, a total newbie would not have a clue. That is the problem, we always are talking to the converted and people used to asking questions, they can fill in the gaps. That is what my disappointment stems from, it seems that TMR was presented and aimed at existing users, not the casual purchaser, who could become an addict like you and I and provide future income for N3V.

Peter


.

 

[Vern]

Not bought TMR (I'm holding out for the 7.25" miniature railway spin off) but I can see where Peter is coming from. As he says, easy for us old hands well versed in the editors (and having used the MSTS and TS20xx route builders I can agree with Phil Surveyor is definitely the easiest of the three). However that is not much consolation to a complete newbie. Most non-railway games these days tend to start with a couple of tutorial levels or missions which are intended to introduce people to the processes and functions. Even the tablet games such as Clash Of Clans guide the user in to what needs to be done.

Of course this is not a new thing and in some ways the fault lies with how Trainz has evolved over the years with content being commissioned or plucked from the DLS with little thought to the coherent whole. For example, TS12 included numerous Russian assets with the instructions provided only in Cyrillic, a language spoken by probably less than 1% of Trainz users.

I digress, but this all comes back to QA and ensuring the product has a manual or some sort of tutorial level, together with clearly named assets again as highlighted by Peter. Telling people to search the forum is not an acceptable substitute - the Search function isn't all that good and can oft times throw up no results or a plethora of irrelevant threads. Then what you're reading is often the subjective view of particular individuals rather than a clear and concise "how to do it" tutorial.

tl:dr While we know N3V runs on a shoestring with limited staff, that does not preclude going the extra distance to provide proper documentation and instructions for all aspects of their product.

 

[wilts747]

There are two series of very useful guides in the UK and probably elsewhere in the world called 'The Idiots Guide to .....' and 'The Dummies Guide to .....' if only there was either for Trainz. Yes we fumble, and get started and after a time with varying degrees of perseverance and frustration we all I guess start creating some quite respectable results but do we all really want the challenge. I'm not convinced we all do and to the beginner as others have suggested it can be quite daunting.

In excess of 95% of Trainz users could draft a reasonable letter in MS Word but probable less than 1% could successfully incorporate headers, footers, page numbering with an index into a manuscript containing annexes an appendices. Trainz is no different. When it comes to the crunch we are relying on perhaps that 1% of the Trainz community though the Forum to help us out. Perhaps that is not such a bad thing and hopefully we remember to applaud their efforts more often than we do but how many of us are loosing out. Most of our questions eventually get answered but what about the questions which never get asked. How much more can Trainz do which we don't know about. I never appreciated how much there was to Portals until a few months ago when I viewed the Trainz TV tutorial, but someone thankfully asked the question. I believe access to a comprehensive user guide/manual would be well worth the effort and cost not only to support the 'Newbies' but equally for the more experienced users in their quest to enjoy that addictive yet equally frustrating pastime called Trainz. Peter

 

[ray_whiley]

Phil, that is an excellent introduction to creating a model railway/railroad. For beginners in the UK may I mention the overscale assets created by itareus (look for names beginning C+ MR) and myself (DDD MR) as these are specifically UK orientated. The States seem to be well served for suitable material for 1:87 scale but here the most commonly used is 1:76.

I have included some thoughts on virtual model railways on my web site, www.raywhiley.co.uk

Ray

 

[hminky]

TMR17 without instructions for the average buyer would be a disappointment.

Plus having the routes locked makes reverse engineering impossible.

Total fail on N3V's part.

I bought TMR17 to keep the cash flow to N#V, just like many others.

Harold

 

[helian43]

Couldn't agree more.
I also pre ordered and bought TMR17 as I prefer small layouts and also to help N3V cash flow.
However what is the advantages over TANE ??
Helian43

 

[martinvk]

Part of the problem is that Trainz is not your ordinary game where you start at one end and then work you way towards the other end. When it's all done, mission accomplished, pack it up and go on to the next game. Trainz is like life, you make of it what ever you like, go where you like, and do what you like. There are probably as many things to do and ways of doing them as there are Trainzers.

It's open ended in both Surveyor as well as Driver. And then there is the object creation side for those so inclined. Writing a manual for all that would be more of an encyclopedia. Something the Wiki attempts but who has time to constantly update that too.

 

[samplaire]

I don't know if I'm an intensive user or an avarage one but after installing the TMR17 I feel like... confused. What in fact is new in the game comparing it to TANE? So far I found them both identical (besides the obvious new intro music and new pictures in the background of menus) and the TMR is even a bit... back... There is no freeintcam, some settings disappeared from the settings menu of launcher... In this field I feel disappointed. But as I understand this is an early stage of the game and more will come. I'm not waiting for new features - I'm waiting for correcting bugs instead. And a new Content Manager. I said it many times that the present one is ugly like hell and is a way back comparing to the features and looks to the CMP+ found in TS12. I was then told it is a prerelease, beta but it was 2 years ago, hello?

 

[pcas1986]

I bought TMR17 for two reasons:

1. Some extra cash flow for N3V. I can afford it and Trainz is my favourite hobby.
2. I really like the "model railroad" concept and love Phil's layouts. If I'm going to go and "play trains" then this would be my preference. It's compact, "in your face" and fun. There's no running through the countryside watching bridges and cars whizz by. You need to think about how to solve the puzzle of getting from point A to B.

But I'm a content creator by choice, I like writing scripts for folks and investigating/analysing new stuff for trainz. As a result, I don't upload new stuff very often. There is a loco I have been building for ages but am stuck in the cab making gauges.

So, my view is that N3V put out TMR17 to make a little extra money for the company. Nothing wrong with that.

TANE is the main game and the future. TMR17 is a side issue and similar to the Trainz Classics IMHO.