IsambardKingdomBrunel
Joined June 2001
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How's UK railway dealing with the snow?
- Thread starter amigacooke
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I read an interesting item in the (Glasgow) Herald about the company that runs the passenger system up her in Scotland. Much of everything north of the Central Belt was belly up and even in that belt too! One of the reasons given was that the DMU's were built in countries with better climates than us? (!).
That makes a change from the old hoary one about the wrong kind of leaves on tracks in the Autumn (Fall to our cousins across the pond!). What I would be interesting to know is what happens in places like the Russian Federation where winters are desperate every year. Do things grind to the same halt?
That makes a change from the old hoary one about the wrong kind of leaves on tracks in the Autumn (Fall to our cousins across the pond!). What I would be interesting to know is what happens in places like the Russian Federation where winters are desperate every year. Do things grind to the same halt?
We're expecting snow over here in New England next week. In general the trains run well, but the roads will grind to a halt, which I am not looking forward to.
The biggest problem we have with the rails is switches freezing. At major junctions and yards, there are heaters to melt the snow. This isn't the case out in the country, however where there are some industrial sidings. Crews will have to go out and dig out the switches manually with picks and shovels, and that can take quite a long time.
I do wonder though about the UK rolling stock. Is it possibly too light to deal with the snow? Our passenger cars are a lot heavier and perhaps can push their way through the snow better.
John
The biggest problem we have with the rails is switches freezing. At major junctions and yards, there are heaters to melt the snow. This isn't the case out in the country, however where there are some industrial sidings. Crews will have to go out and dig out the switches manually with picks and shovels, and that can take quite a long time.
I do wonder though about the UK rolling stock. Is it possibly too light to deal with the snow? Our passenger cars are a lot heavier and perhaps can push their way through the snow better.
John
I think part of the problem is that a lot of the equipment is under the carriages. The snow gets whipped up by the moving train and makes its way into the electrical equipment through the air vents. Once in a nice warm bit of electronics it melts and doesn't really help things.
Mike.
Mike.
Hi Everybody.
The problem is with this one, that everybody works much further from home than they did in the 1970s and goods are transported much greater distances than they were in the 60s and 70s.
In the winter of 1962-63 Weathers conditions like we seen last week lasted for three months. Despite this everybody got to work by walking their if they had to as most people's journeys where no more than a couple of miles in general
Goods for the shops were sourced locally and therefore everybody was able to get their weekly shopping and pay for it from their weekly wages which they were still able to earn.
Just a thought on what they call progress.
Bill
The problem is with this one, that everybody works much further from home than they did in the 1970s and goods are transported much greater distances than they were in the 60s and 70s.
In the winter of 1962-63 Weathers conditions like we seen last week lasted for three months. Despite this everybody got to work by walking their if they had to as most people's journeys where no more than a couple of miles in general
Goods for the shops were sourced locally and therefore everybody was able to get their weekly shopping and pay for it from their weekly wages which they were still able to earn.
Just a thought on what they call progress.
Bill
Wessex_Electric_Nutter
Active member
Its a bit more than that, ok, the snow gets into the electrical equipment, shorts it out and causes a nice big bang, or ice causes the equipment to suffer spikes and surges, which doesn't help matters, so the theory goes.
However, the biggest problem is related to the "Electrostars", the biggest order of trains in the South East which are used by c2c, SouthEastern and Southern. We can ignore the c2c lot as incase you have forgotten, they have pantographs, although I do believe they can have shoes as well.
The electrostars constantly monitor the line voltage into the train supplies and there are all sorts of electrical equipment that I don't even know about, I should imagine our old electrical friend, RCD/RCCD makes its appearance at least a million times and the OCD alongside also may show its face, there are shoe fuses as well. However, none of these detect surges, they are simply mechanical devices that go "TICK" if a fault appears, if anything goes wrong, reset the trip and you are on your way, well, if it doesn't trip out again.
On the other hand, the computer? Oh no, thats not as forgiving, the computer hates humans, lets face it, it has to work with humans, it thinks the human is a stupid lump of flesh in the seat and the computer knows what is going on in the train than the driver can react and often overrides the driver. (Wheel Slide Protection anyone? TPWS anyone? - not really a computer, but oh well.). The computer knows when its arcing and sparking and doesn't care, although the computer is smart, its most dumbest move is when it shuts down.
That stupid human (who after all, is just as smart as the computer) now has to reboot the computer, so resets it, the computer does its thing from fresh and moves on, so a mile down the line, the conditions deterioate and the computer goes "Sod this, I'm shutting down the train, I might destroy it letting the human drive it." so shuts down again. I think its three times and the computer will not let the driver reboot the train. (it maybe once if it is excessive, but I don't know that much detail.)
"Oh dear" thinks the driver, "I've got a problem, wheres the next train?", so a fresh train with the same computer, comes out, couples up, rescues the stranded unit and you can probably guess and it sometimes happens, that fails too. Now, you have a network in chaos, because the computer will not let you battle on in the snow, as it doesn't want you to destroy it.
Well, you get the mindset.
Added to that, trains do also love to freeze themselves in place, it happened on the 01/12/2010 outside Gatwick when an 8 car FCC train (they didn't say what type, but since FCC have 2 types of trains on the Thameslink route, its got to be either a Class 377 Electrostar - No supprises there as those things hate the cold, or a Class 319), so they get another 8 cars to shove it... yep, it froze itself to the rails as well.
I'm sure if the elplastostar can speak, at the start of the duties when its told to move from the shed after being rudely awoken by its driver, it would probably say as soon as it sees the snow..
"Do you expect me to go out in that? Sod this, I'm staying here, good bye."
One final note, the Electrostars also have IIRC, ice mode, a mode that does 2 things, keeps the trains running and while doing it, cunningly uses up much, much, much more power than it usually does, except the substations cannot really cope, so you have to monitor its power usage.... oh dear! Not a smart move that Bombardier, is it? So, in order to use ice mode, you ring the signaller or line controller, ask him, if you can use ice mode and then respond appropriately and hope to hell that the power your train is now using, doesn't cause anything else to go bang, big time.
I think we've become over-reliant on DMUs/EMUs that are vulnerable in these conditions. Perhaps if we had more loco hauled carriage sets available then some sort of service could have been provided without the whole system grinding to a halt?
Paul
perry_weekley
New member
So, does anyone know if they have taken the Tornado out for some Wintery Photo Ops with this " clear" main line? :hehe:
whistlehead
Lurking
Nothing whatsoever in Cambridge. We got about half an inch a week ago, but that's long gone.
The joker who is Scottish "Transport Minister" came on tv in a news programme and gave a newsspeak kind of answer which didn't cover the situation one little bit. He was duly attacked from everywhere. At one point he said it was terible lorries and cars getting stuck but there were alternatives? Where? Rail services all but ground to a halt and everywhere there were no buse services. Hers in Glasgow buses went off over the city!
On being asked to apologise for not being ready for the latest snow situation he repeatedly bodyswerved it. However by the next morning he had to eat humble pie as there were still people in cars stuck on motorways all night. I fail to understand why we are year in year out worse than countries who are legendary at bad winters.
We definitely must have a different snow from elsewhere!
On being asked to apologise for not being ready for the latest snow situation he repeatedly bodyswerved it. However by the next morning he had to eat humble pie as there were still people in cars stuck on motorways all night. I fail to understand why we are year in year out worse than countries who are legendary at bad winters.
We definitely must have a different snow from elsewhere!
Because we don't want to pay for that not to be the case.
Give up your free presecriptions, free University education, and pay double the Council Tax and then there will be enough money to make sure nobody gets stuck in the snow next time.
Mike.
BLACKWATCH
Mechanical Engineer
It's ok having an independant Scottish parliament, as long as England is supplying the taxpayer funding for it.
What would happen to Scotland, if Westminster kicked out all the Scottish MPs, and said "raise your own funds, you are now an independant country" ?
I bet the SNP would very quickly find themselves in a hole they couldn't climb out of.
What would happen to Scotland, if Westminster kicked out all the Scottish MPs, and said "raise your own funds, you are now an independant country" ?
I bet the SNP would very quickly find themselves in a hole they couldn't climb out of.
It's ok having an independant Scottish parliament, as long as England is supplying the taxpayer funding for it.
What would happen to Scotland, if Westminster kicked out all the Scottish MPs, and said "raise your own funds, you are now an independant country" ?
I bet the SNP would very quickly find themselves in a hole they couldn't climb out of.
Your ancestors should have thought about that before invading every country around them. You also pay for Northern Ireland and Wales and mustn't forget the north of England too.
The SNP are a party of fools so they are welcome to that hole. Their only answer to funds is oil revenues which they conveniently forget will only last another 10-20 years. Not sure whisky will provide quite the same amount of cash.
I am English, born in England but my ancestors are Scottish on my fathers side and Welsh on my mothers side. Which countries did my ancestors invade?
I have heard on the news that Scottish local authorities want the army to help clear snow in Edinburgh and the Scottish central belt road network. Surely it's up to the local authorities to provide adequate means of clearing snow. It's always the army who get called on to provide general manual labour as well as putting their lives on the line in some foreign trouble spot. Let the local people sort themselves out!
Okay for pedant's sake, take "your ancestors" and substitute with "the English".
IsambardKingdomBrunel
Joined June 2001
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Don't leave out Northern Ireland. That's another can of worms.
amigacooke
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