editingg IM files

[Lots_Trains]

Editing .PM/.IM (apart from using PM2IM or Attachment Maker) is seen as reverse engineering (as that format is specific to the Jet engine at this point in time), which is against the rules. Only the creator can edit such files, and only if they make the changes using their 3D modelling program and re-exporting the .IM.

Shane

You have it so wrong, you can edit do what ever you want to a .im file (there are tools to do it) or any other file for that matter, what you can not do is redistribute it afterwards. So what you are saying is rubbish. So if a person wants to copy, edit, murder a file for their own personal use its perfectly ok, you are not the internet police.

Cheers

Lots

 

[Lots_Trains]

I disagree config.txt file is a text file that can be edited by a text editor and is designed to be modified. There is documentation available on it. A .im file can be edited by a hex editor but is not designed to be edited and its only by inspecting and reverse engineering that the structure can be determined. Pev's attachment maker creates .im files it does not edit them to my knowledge.

Cheerio John

There are tools around to edit .im files, there have a been for years. There is nothing wrong with editing .im files, its only wrong if the person redistributes the the altered .im file without permission plain and simple.

Cheers

Lots

 

[shaneturner12]

Here's one for you. The license agreement (at least for TS2010 - other versions are likely to be similar) there is a clause in there that may cover .IM files:

http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/TS2010_License_Agreement]4.4[/url] Except for purposes expressly permitted by law, you must not reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble the Software or any of the files that are used by the Software.

The question is whether that also covers .PM/.IM files. If it does, editing them using a hex editor may constitute a violation of the license agreement.

Shane

 

[PortlandBill]

Hmm.. following your argument here Shane you cannot even edit config files

 

[shaneturner12]

I don't think config files are included in that one, but I'm not sure if .IM/.PM files are though. One for N3V to clarify I'd say.

Shane

 

[BuilderBob]

I don't think config files are included in that one, but I'm not sure if .IM/.PM files are though. One for N3V to clarify I'd say.Shane

There is no need for clarification - the text is quite clear. You are not permitted to "reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble" anything. You can, however, edit alter or adjust as much as you like.

 

[shaneturner12]

That makes sense, but the question remains on whether editing a .IM or .PM file in a hex editor is classed as reverse engineering,decompiling, or disassembling the format.

It's a tricky thing at the best of times, and it's not one I advise people doing anyway in case it does indeed class as reverse engineering or similar.

That's the way I see it. You are welcome to ignore my advice, but I don't want anyone running into trouble with N3V by editing something they shouldn't be.

Shane

 

[johnwhelan]

You have it so wrong, you can edit do what ever you want to a .im file (there are tools to do it) or any other file for that matter, what you can not do is redistribute it afterwards. So what you are saying is rubbish. So if a person wants to copy, edit, murder a file for their own personal use its perfectly ok, you are not the internet police.

Cheers

Lots

I think there are limits to what you can do with a file even for personal use. They vary from country to country but for example locally you are not permitted to copy some files.

Cheerio John

 

[martinvk]

Ever notice how some of those that claim the right to modify IM files directly haven't contributed any that others could modify too?

 

[Lots_Trains]

Here's one for you. The license agreement (at least for TS2010 - other versions are likely to be similar) there is a clause in there that may cover .IM files:



The question is whether that also covers .PM/.IM files. If it does, editing them using a hex editor may constitute a violation of the license agreement.

Shane

So every .im/pm ever created cannot be edited or reverse engineered, don't think so. EULA for Trainz covering peice of content every where, mmmmmm don't think so. A few years back when things were Auran they released a disk with all the art files for Trainz, on that its was said, they could not be released unless substantially modified, so that introduces another anomaly into the argument.

You could also say the PEV to make his tool had to in some way reverse engineer the .im/pm files to make his tools work, so does that mean all his tools are someway illegal, I think that is totally absurd.

At the end of the day N3V would have a pretty hard time prosecuting anyone for reverse engineering a .im not produced by them.

Cheers

Lots

 

[Lots_Trains]

I think there are limits to what you can do with a file even for personal use. They vary from country to country but for example locally you are not permitted to copy some files.

Cheerio John

Eh you could get pretty pedantic about if you want if you want, but in the privacy of your own home who is gonna know suppose the NSA might, wonder why companies make DRM phone home stuff, to limit that to an extent, is it wrong eheheh you better not J walk either, theres some pretty silly laws in this world.

Cheers

Lots

 

[shaneturner12]

They probably would have a hard time, but that's not the only issue I see. For a start, if anyone tries the process and basically mucks up, N3V will probably not help them as they would be asking 'why did you do that in the first place?'. It's just something I seriously fail to understand why someone would want to do in normal use.

In most cases, that's why we have 3D modelling tools - so the creator can make the required changes and re-export the .im file.

Take it how you will, but I will not be supporting anyone who does attempt the process when it's not needed.

Shane

 

[oknotsen]

Being able to and being allowed to are two different things.

Someone or something discovering you did it anyway, is a completely different discussion.

 

[Lots_Trains]

Ever notice how some of those that claim the right to modify IM files directly haven't contributed any that others could modify too?

Whats ya problem, I choose not to release my stuff, I do a lot of .im rebuilding and a lot of original stuff, I chose form a long time back not to release stuff its not my scene, I guess by your logic if I don't release stuff I have no right to an opinion.
If ya got a problem with .im files been modded don't release them I choose not to. You are naive to think that anything you put on the net won't be used in some manner you don't agree with.


Cheers

Lots

 

[Lots_Trains]

Being able to and being allowed to are two different things.

Someone or something discovering you did it anyway, is a completely different discussion.

So reverse engineering is ok for one reason is ok, but not for another. hmmm interesting, wonder who makes those kinda decisions, guess its a Judge in a Court, I'll listen to him, not anyone on this forum.

Cheers

Lots

 

[shaneturner12]

Here's one for you then. Why don't you ask N3V, then let us know their response? As far as I'm concerned though, it's not something most users should be doing.

Shane

 

[martinvk]

So every .im/pm ever created cannot be edited or reverse engineered, don't think so.

when did the passage of time diminish the restriction?

EULA for Trainz covering peice of content every where, mmmmmm don't think so.

why not?

A few years back when things were Auran they released a disk with all the art files for Trainz, on that its was said, they could not be released unless substantially modified, so that introduces another anomaly into the argument.

They, as the owners gave the source files for others to play with. No IM files so no anomaly at all. Try reading the EULA that came with the files.

You could also say the PEV to make his tool had to in some way reverse engineer the .im/pm files to make his tools work, so does that mean all his tools are someway illegal, I think that is totally absurd.

No idea how he did it, why assume it was illegal?

At the end of the day N3V would have a pretty hard time prosecuting anyone for reverse engineering a .im not produced by them.

Cheers

Lots

Whether they can or do prosecute doesn't change the illegality of reverse engineering an IM.

 

[Lots_Trains]

Here's one for you then. Why don't you ask N3V, then let us know their response? As far as I'm concerned though, it's not something most users should be doing.

Shane

Shane

I'm sure if N3V wish to comment they will. This subject comes up every couple of months and N3V have responded to it in the past, I suggest you troll back through the posts and find them, it goes back may years.

I'm afraid you and I can be concerned about anything we want but it just doesn't matter. Its the Law and the Courts interpretation of the law that counts at the end of the day nothing else. You can not impose your will on someone else. If you are so concerned run for Parliament and change the law.

Cheers

Lots

 

[shaneturner12]

Indeed. I've a feeling they will do anyway, but don't be surprised if their view is similar to mine (and bear in mind that I'm not the only one on this thread that has given reasons against it).

Shane

 

[BuilderBob]

That makes sense, but the question remains on whether editing a .IM or .PM file in a hex editor is classed as reverse engineering,decompiling, or disassembling the format.

It's a tricky thing at the best of times, and it's not one I advise people doing anyway in case it does indeed class as reverse engineering or similar.

That's the way I see it. You are welcome to ignore my advice, but I don't want anyone running into trouble with N3V by editing something they shouldn't be.

Shane

Reverse engineering is the process of generating information about the source of the constructed object. If it is a machine then it means constructing blueprints or specifications used to construct the machine. If it's a file it means creating the software objects or source code from which that file was generated. It is not applicable to config.txt or TGA files, but it is applicable to IM files because they are manufactured from a source - the GMAX data. If you use the information in that file to create, in whole or part, the original source information that was used to generate the IM then you are reverse engineering. Altering the file in some way has nothing to do with reverse engineering because it does not produce any copy of the source used to generate the file. It's not tricky or complex. If you were not permitted to change the file then the license would say so. It says you are not permitted to reverse engineer the file, but it places no restriction on changing the file.

I you were providing advice about the wisdom of changing an IM file then that's fine, but you weren't. Your statement is "Editing .PM/.IM (apart from using PM2IM or Attachment Maker) is seen as reverse engineering" and that statement is not correct.