Does anyone remember when...? Nothing has changed even a decade later.

Status
Not open for further replies.
 
RRSignal said:
Again, the problem with all these methods is, they hurt the average user.
Click to expand...

I didn't say it's perfect, but it's better than others I've used including the corporate-level ones and at least the developers are looking into working with us.

Unfortunately, because of a few people, the average user has to suffer. This has always been the case in a lot of things. Just because a few people decide that trains are a nice target, the rest of us innocent rail fans can no longer stand rail side and take pictures without being harassed by the public or officials. It was the same in school too. Some moron would act up and the whole class would end up losing out on a special deal.

John
 
JCitron said:
I didn't say it's perfect, but it's better than others I've used including the corporate-level ones and at least the developers are looking into working with us.

Unfortunately, because of a few people, the average user has to suffer. This has always been the case in a lot of things. Just because a few people decide that trains are a nice target, the rest of us innocent rail fans can no longer stand rail side and take pictures without being harassed by the public or officials. It was the same in school too. Some moron would act up and the whole class would end up losing out on a special deal.

John
Click to expand...

Lol, I'm familiar with the stuff the mainframe and mini vendors used. Ugh! I actually had a Burrough's B90 and a TI-990 up until a few years ago that employed similar mechanisms. I probably could have started my own WORKING computer museum! Seriously, though, the results were the same, unfortunately: They couldn't legally be made to work since they were out of support. And we're not talking $50 games either, but 5- or 6-figure corporate mini systems.

However, all this really has little to do with piracy. Perhaps, that was the original reason for development of these schemes (and I don't buy that for a second, partly for the aforementioned reasons, but that's not worth debating). Software and content providers have since found out that DRM is far more useful as a means to control who can use their content, how, under what terms, for how long, and, ultimately, that they can get far more money - and on a continuous basis, no less - than they can from a one-time sale. Adobe being a case-in-point.
 
Last edited:
RRSignal said:
Software and content providers have since found out that DRM is far more useful as a means to control who can use their content, how, under what terms, for how long, and, ultimately, that they can get far more money - and on a continuous basis, no less - than they can from a one-time sale. Adobe being a case-in-point.
Click to expand...

Economically speaking, whoever came up with such a scheme was a cunning genius. However, until that day comes where Trainz heads in that direction, I will continue with this hobby one day at a time - not closing the barn door yet, so to speak. And when that happens, like you I will also refuse to be a part of it.
 
Adobe do provide a subscription model, but I still seem to be using Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign etc. on the buy it and use it model as I have done for the past decade.

It seems to me that while any community creator is entitled to put whatever licence conditions on their output that they like, that same atttitude isn't applied to N3V. I won't be happy if N3V choose to go completely DRM, but nor will I be 'cutting off my nose to spite my face' either.
 
At least N3V are open for discussion regarding their new system - they could have chosen to implement it and reject any discussion.

I can tell you that occasionally-on is not half as bad as those who require always-on, like SimCity 5 or to a certain extent the Steam gaming service (although with Steam it is possible to turn on Offline mode, but even then it still has to be online periodically).

No system is perfect as far as I'm concerned, but like most things it's a matter of compromise. Trainz (since TS2009 SP4 at least if not as far back as TRS2006) has made use of the internet for certain features, and in later versions, things like validating that you are not using a pirate copy of Trainz, or things as simple as downloading updated asset listings.

One thing I don't understand though is why the DRM conversation now uses two threads, when most of it cropped up in the 'Appalled and Dismayed' thread.

Just my 2 cents on this. You are welcome to disagree with me, but please do not attack me over this post as I'm simply adding my thoughts to the matter.

Shane
 
I wonder what portion of the Community are as upset as the small group that hijacked this thread to to complain about N3V's commercial practices. Even some "homemade lawyers" have offered opinions. The Original Poster offers a reasonable well constructed perspective and this same small group jumps in with their STANDARD complaints.

Frankly "Charlotte I do not give a damn". The majority of the community probably have Internet on all the time.

Now, we will be bombarded by more of what the Original Poster described so well. They just can't help themselves.
 
amigacooke said:
Adobe do provide a subscription model, but I still seem to be using Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign etc. on the buy it and use it model as I have done for the past decade.
Click to expand...


Gee, nobody said Adobe shut down their business yet, did they? I looked, but can't find anyone saying that, myself included.

But my brother is no longer able to use his older copy of Photoshop, since Adobe is no longer accepting activations for that particular version, so yeah, Adobe's DRM is working.

It seems to me that while any community creator is entitled to put whatever licence conditions on their output that they like, that same atttitude isn't applied to N3V. I won't be happy if N3V choose to go completely DRM, but nor will I be 'cutting off my nose to spite my face' either.
Click to expand...

They're entitled to add DRM provided they don't change the rules under which the product(s) were advertised and sold, which is why it has come up that this would have been better implemented in the next version of Trainz as opposed to a patch. So, you're perfectly okay with a company telling you one thing in it's ads and then giving you something else, then?

Well, then, I have a brand new car to sell you.
 
Think carefully on that one RRSignal. In the case of boxed products, anything can change without N3V being able to change what is on your box. Digital Download versions may be slightly different though.

Regarding the advertisements, they are correct in terms of what you get in the 'virgin' version, i.e. without installing patches.

Shane
 
shaneturner12 said:
Think carefully on that one RRSignal. In the case of boxed products, anything can change without N3V being able to change what is on your box. Digital Download versions may be slightly different though.

Regarding the advertisements, they are correct in terms of what you get in the 'virgin' version, i.e. without installing patches.

Shane
Click to expand...

Really? I guess the U.S. may have stronger consumer-protection laws than we're given credit for, then, not to mention contract laws. You're missing two facts here: The "virgin" version doesn't have all the features which it claims to do so (or, more accurately, some of them are broken), nor does it state an internet connection as a system requirement. As we all know, you could patch the flaws and, without introducing the internet connection as a system requirement, and not substantially change the product and the terms and conditions under which it was advertised and sold. Alternatively, had all the features originally advertised worked, you might (or very likely might not) be able to issue a patch that requires an internet connection. Ultimately, that would be up to a court or arbitrator, which could go either way on that as to whether a manufacturer has that discretion.

The problem here is, you need to meet a different set of minimum system requirements than what was advertised, to be able to use the features the program was advertised as having from the get-go.
 
It does actually mention an internet requirement on the box as required for some features (unless your box(es) are different to mine).

Regarding terms and conditions, I've read a lot in UK news regarding this as it appears that companies do have an ability to change certain terms and conditions but they are supposed to notify users first (which I agree that this is something N3V should have done, but I don't know much about Australian laws).

Bear in mind though that once a boxed version leaves the factory, the manufacturer cannot change what is on that box.

Shane
 
clam1952 said:
CS2? see here, Adobe supplied downloads that don't need activation, for licensed users, I've used it on my Mac version of Photoshop.

http://www.adobe.com/downloads/cs2_downloads/index.html
Click to expand...

I told him about that after somebody posted the link here a few months back. I don't remember if he used CS2, CS3 or CS4, but thanks for the link. I give Adobe credit for their ethos since there was no obligation for them to do this (as far as I know about.) I hope they do this for CS4 users once that goes out of support, as I know quite a few people who use that.
 
shaneturner12 said:
It does actually mention an internet requirement on the box as required for some features (unless your box(es) are different to mine).

Regarding terms and conditions, I've read a lot in UK news regarding this as it appears that companies do have an ability to change certain terms and conditions but they are supposed to notify users first (which I agree that this is something N3V should have done, but I don't know much about Australian laws).

Bear in mind though that once a boxed version leaves the factory, the manufacturer cannot change what is on that box.

Shane
Click to expand...

I'm referring to the online ads, which is what I based my purchase on for both the game and the DLC; I ordered the boxed copy from N3V and never even saw the box of either TS2010 or TS12 until almost 1-2 weeks after placing my order. Come to think of it, the only Trainz product I've ever seen in a store was UTC. But, just out of curiosity I'll check my TS12 box when I get home from the office.
 
I will have a look at the online ads, although I know the ones relating to the DLC would need to apply to all supported Windows versions (that would be TS2009/TS2010/TS12 apart from the Aerotrain, which is TS2010/TS12).

I'm interested to see what your boxed version of TS12 says though.

Shane

EDIT: Looks like the online ad for TS12 doesn't mention internet connection. One for Helpdesk I think...
 
Last edited:
RRSignal said:
I told him about that after somebody posted the link here a few months back. I don't remember if he used CS2, CS3 or CS4, but thanks for the link. I give Adobe credit for their ethos since there was no obligation for them to do this (as far as I know about.) I hope they do this for CS4 users once that goes out of support, as I know quite a few people who use that.
Click to expand...

It was I that posted the link regarding CS2. I run the software under Windows 8 perfectly with admin rights. No need to register and no need to run the Adobe updater. Who cares about this. Photoshop works for just what it's supposed to do and so do the other programs.

Anyway.... back up on topic...

The consumer rules in the UK are very similar to the US laws from what I've read.

Regarding software licenses. Does anyone read them? :)

They usually say in there that the end-user has the right to use the software and it is sold as is. Amongst the blah, blah, eye-glazing over rhetoric are the terms and conditions which can be changed at any time. There is also a statement in there somewhere, usually, regarding how the company owns the software and they can change the terms and update the software at any time because they own it not the end-user.

And, just as I said originally nothing has changed here in a decade. :)

John
 
I just checked my box and there is no mention of requiring an internet connection. Multiplayer is advertised. I know some games will say "Internet connection required for multiplayer" or something to that effect. Oversight?
 
JCitron said:
Regarding software licenses. Does anyone read them? :)

They usually say in there that the end-user has the right to use the software and it is sold as is. Amongst the blah, blah, eye-glazing over rhetoric are the terms and conditions which can be changed at any time. There is also a statement in there somewhere, usually, regarding how the company owns the software and they can change the terms and update the software at any time because they own it not the end-user.
Click to expand...

ME! ME! ME! (raises hand excitedly). Yeah, I'm that guy. I do read contracts, I read the fine print, yadda, yadda, etc. and even pick it apart. A lot of it stems from running my own business, but I truly do enjoy the law.

You're referring to what's called an open-ended contract or agreement. They're half the reason why courts exist. :D
 
shaneturner12 said:
I will have a look at the online ads, although I know the ones relating to the DLC would need to apply to all supported Windows versions (that would be TS2009/TS2010/TS12 apart from the Aerotrain, which is TS2010/TS12).

I'm interested to see what your boxed version of TS12 says though.

Shane

EDIT: Looks like the online ad for TS12 doesn't mention internet connection. One for Helpdesk I think...
Click to expand...

Nope, no mention of internet connection on my boxed copy either.

Unrelated to the internet/DRM issue, but interesting to note, I did notice a statement I've never seen before relating to graphics cards that says, "Laptop models of these graphics cards may work but are not supported." TS2010 has that disclaimer too. It probably would be a good idea for N3V to put that on the SimulatorCentral site.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

C
In Regards To The Pennsylvania Railroad T1
Replies
0
Views
329
ChugLifeBoy
C
H
GPU crashing when working on route
Replies
14
Views
478
hiawathamr
H
E
Has anyone tried to stream Trainz from a Windows host to a Mac?
Replies
11
Views
750
epa
E
J
When it rains, it pours.
2 3
Replies
41
Views
2K
OddRails
O
J
I'm trying a new punch recipe.
Replies
0
Views
322
JonMyrlennBailey
J
Back
Top