Does anyone remember when...? Nothing has changed even a decade later.
- Thread starter JCitron
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Is there anywhere in the forums that I can get away from this trickle of filth regarding DRM? I do not care. If it happens, so be it, as mentioned, steam, uplay and origin use DRM and it seems to work. And as you said, adobe and blah use DRM, and since people use it, it makes it usable. Your "accurate information" is biased and heavily influenced by your opinion on the matter
amigacooke
Well-known member
You can use the 'ignore' option.
Funny thing about DRM (and, by extension, the whole subscription business model) is, if it's really just so great, if it's really so desirable, why aren't manufacturers (like N3V) upfront about it? Why didn't N3V mention the new DRM right in the changelog of SP1...or in the three hotfixes released since then?
Meh, if it happens it happens, I'll worry about that crossing when I get to it. Even if it does get to be personally objectionable in the future, my pre SP1 installation worked well enough for me to use that for a long time. Or I'll just move on to something else. It's a game, a hobby, not a religion. Right now I'm enjoying Trainz, probably mote than back in the old days, that's all I care about.
Never said "everyone". But, unless you have evidence to the contrary, it's safe to say that the majority of DLC and TS12 purchases occurred prior to the release of SP1 on April 10th of this year. Seeing as TS12 has been on the market over two years now. Therefore, a majority of TS12 users will fall into the same category as me. Of course, some won't care, some will. Probably the majority won't even know.
N3V don't really announce anything until it's done or released. We never knew about Doppler until TS12 was released. We never knew about most of their DLC, as they don't specifically announce it. We never saw any versions until they were released for beta-testing. This is their "trend" as you so high-and-mightily put it
Jamie
Jamie
PennCentral
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I remember chatting in IRC with the old crew that used to be around here. fond memories 
Hmm, funny, I seem to recall Doppler mentioned around when TS12 was released - in the April 12th, 2011 newsletter, in fact. I guess you don't understand the difference between "before being released" versus "when it's released" versus "after it's released." The post discussing the patch for SP1 says nothing about the new DRM, nor to the posts regarding the three hotfixes since. In fact, details about the DRM only emerged in the last week or so.
The thing about DRM, is that peoples' reaction to it tends to be in proportion to the desire to use the software. I tolerate the Steam DRM in Railworks because it offers an excellent driving experience (show me a route in Trainz where you can drive a Class 395 with correct traction and braking physics on a TVM430 signalled route) and a tolerable route editor.
Trainz has an excellent route editor but graphically and operationally looks tatty and dated, ergo I would be much less inclined to tolerate DRM either for new routes or if any future version was bound by additional restrictions such as periodic online authentication.
Where software companies shoot themselves in the foot with DRM, is that they're only hurting the genuine users. I would like to wager the percentage of people who download a copy of Trainz or its add-ons from a pirate site are unlikely to be serious contenders for purchase anyway. We're not talking GTA or Mass Effect here... both highly sought after mainstream games which, incidentally, I would also consider DRM as a necessary evil to play them.
Trainz has an excellent route editor but graphically and operationally looks tatty and dated, ergo I would be much less inclined to tolerate DRM either for new routes or if any future version was bound by additional restrictions such as periodic online authentication.
Where software companies shoot themselves in the foot with DRM, is that they're only hurting the genuine users. I would like to wager the percentage of people who download a copy of Trainz or its add-ons from a pirate site are unlikely to be serious contenders for purchase anyway. We're not talking GTA or Mass Effect here... both highly sought after mainstream games which, incidentally, I would also consider DRM as a necessary evil to play them.
The idea behind DRM, as we're calling it, really isn't new. The corporate world has lived this way for decades with various applications. I'm not talking about the Adobe blob or Microsoft's stuff. I'm talking megabucks invested in database software and clients. Many software companies have gone this route, both big and small, because it is a revenue stream. With N3V, however, this isn't the case, and instead they appear to be, right now anyway, using it as a copyright protection method.
The DRM in Trainz is not as bad as SOME make it out to be. It could be worse like only allowing 5 installs, putting a hidden key in the system registry, and forcing the system to run a special application which is also hidden in the hard drive. Other features used to include dongles and special disks. Yes, I'm not sure if people remember the old floppy disks with special hidden codes on them? These were actually burned into the floppy and if the disk went bad you were hosed. Old 3ds Max not only had a dongle, but it also required a phone in authorization and download to install and run. Pro/Engineer requires registering the NIC MAC address with the software Parametrics. If the NIC fails and you replace it, you have to re-register your software all over again.
I remember that Chris (WindWalkr) mentioned in the other thread on DRM, that the developers are open for suggestions on how better to handle this. This is a new thing for them and us, and the fact that they're willing to work with the community to make things better is a good thing. I've never seen Microsoft, Adobe, or some of the other game companies do anything like that.
N3V may now be part of a Chinese software conglomerate, but the fact that they have money behind them to continue development is a good thing. Remember the purpose of a company to make money for its stake holders which include the owners and investors. The rest of us benefit from its wares if we choose to purchase them.
Remember the old days before Fury and about the time of the GFD. Things haven't changed much, but they have also changed in many ways. Like us the company its self lost a lot of good people in the reorganization. Things haven't been the same since.
John
The DRM in Trainz is not as bad as SOME make it out to be. It could be worse like only allowing 5 installs, putting a hidden key in the system registry, and forcing the system to run a special application which is also hidden in the hard drive. Other features used to include dongles and special disks. Yes, I'm not sure if people remember the old floppy disks with special hidden codes on them? These were actually burned into the floppy and if the disk went bad you were hosed. Old 3ds Max not only had a dongle, but it also required a phone in authorization and download to install and run. Pro/Engineer requires registering the NIC MAC address with the software Parametrics. If the NIC fails and you replace it, you have to re-register your software all over again.
I remember that Chris (WindWalkr) mentioned in the other thread on DRM, that the developers are open for suggestions on how better to handle this. This is a new thing for them and us, and the fact that they're willing to work with the community to make things better is a good thing. I've never seen Microsoft, Adobe, or some of the other game companies do anything like that.
N3V may now be part of a Chinese software conglomerate, but the fact that they have money behind them to continue development is a good thing. Remember the purpose of a company to make money for its stake holders which include the owners and investors. The rest of us benefit from its wares if we choose to purchase them.
Remember the old days before Fury and about the time of the GFD. Things haven't changed much, but they have also changed in many ways. Like us the company its self lost a lot of good people in the reorganization. Things haven't been the same since.
John
Ahhh.. Here I am, still here after all the updates since I found a discounted copy of Trainz in a clearance bin. SP I think it was and the glory of Paintshed. But pause for a moment guys and close your eyes as you recall the great download database crash and we all thought the world had come to an end. I still have a twitch in my left eye after that...
However, John I think you are right in what you say and we see the old pattern repeat itself again and again with each new update over the years. The shock when it was discovered that it was important to bring your brain with you and not just leave it snoozing on the pillow. If you wanted it to work you had to find a way to make it work and you made friends along the way who were battling with the same odds as you were. Okay, we all grumbled a bit but it was hard work and time consuming in an attempt at perfection. But Trainz is a driven thing, if you see what I mean? You get hooked and decide you will not be beaten. Giving in is easy. Does not alter the fact that my wife sees little or no point in it and there is something seriously wrong with me.
My thoughts...
Doug
However, John I think you are right in what you say and we see the old pattern repeat itself again and again with each new update over the years. The shock when it was discovered that it was important to bring your brain with you and not just leave it snoozing on the pillow. If you wanted it to work you had to find a way to make it work and you made friends along the way who were battling with the same odds as you were. Okay, we all grumbled a bit but it was hard work and time consuming in an attempt at perfection. But Trainz is a driven thing, if you see what I mean? You get hooked and decide you will not be beaten. Giving in is easy. Does not alter the fact that my wife sees little or no point in it and there is something seriously wrong with me.
My thoughts...
Doug
The BIG difference in the past was, Trainz was created, developed and operated by a bunch of Train enthusiasts and hobbyists, the Brew Crew, people who loved Trains. What we have now (as it so obvious seems) are numbers crunchers who are running Trainz with an eye on profit only, as it seems by the look of what is happening now and in the immediate past. You be the judge and see what is better, having a Train Simulation getting operated by people (as it seems) of having only a faint idea of what a genuine Train Simulation should be or rather, as it was in the past, in the golden olden days (before Fury), having it developed and operated by genuine Train lovers who knew what a Train Simulation should (and could) be.
To get back onto the main trust of this thread, to me it looks like of someone raising concerns here of the directions Trainz is heading and this poster stating his reservations but instead of us listening and thinking about this, he is getting lambasted for stating his views and concerns. It would be nice to look into the future, say, a couple of years ahead and see where Trainz will be in the grander scheme of things as the direction now taken by the makers of Trainz also has me thinking about what else might be coming soon along the posters concerns.
So should you too.
My opinion
VinnyBarb
The concerns posted are something to consider, yes but care has to be taken in how they are expressed. It's one thing to inform people, generate a discussion and get people to think for themselves, but in some ways it seems like it is becoming an agenda, with the purpose not of informing but persuading people to think the same way, and take similar actions wit an attitude of "I'm right and the rest of you are wrong. I know more than you do."
My opinion.
amigacooke
Well-known member
Though maybe the only reason we still have Trainz in development is because of the number crunchers. People who ignore the bottom line tend to go out of business.
We hope there is a balance between the enthusiast creative types and the bottom liners. They are both needed for Trainz to continue.
Actually, most if not all modern DRM is as bad as it's made out to be. The difference between "always-on", "sometimes-on" and "one-time activations" is simply a matter of how often the software checks in. At the end of the day, the software provider can deny authorization for any reason: They don't want to support the product or version; you've been banned; technical and connectivity issues; company out-of-business, and so forth.
Always-on sounds like the worst, because it offers the most immediate negative results. Always on kicks in at least every time you start the game, if not requiring continuous authentication while using the software. So, if/when BigGameCompany, Inc. decides to stop authenticating for whatever reason, you're stuck. But, at least you'll know right away.
Sometimes-on isn't any better. It handicaps the software just the same way; it's just a question of when the authentication check-in takes place. BigGameCompany, Inc. might set their software to check-in once a day rather than be always-on. Or maybe once a week. Or, at the extreme, maybe once a month. The end result is the same: Your software will be disabled if BigGameCompany decides not to authenticate your software. In fact, sometimes-on DRM is better for software-makers because it doesn't require anywhere near the amount of infrastructure, bandwidth, server capacity as alway-on, so it's not much a surprise N3V went this route; even multi-billion-dollar conglomerates like EA found out how difficult always-on is to implement when SimCity was released a few months back.
And, of course, one-time activation is more of the same. Again, it's only a matter of timing. Install Railworks, FSX or whatever and activate it. You're fine as long as your hard drive doesn't take a dump, the software doesn't get corrupted, or your computer doesn't crash. But, once that does happen, if and when BigGameCompany or whoever pulls support for your product or goes out of business, you're left with a worthless purchase, just the same as if your software used sometimes-on or always-on activation.
Again, the problem with all these methods is, they hurt the average user. Not everybody is in a position to maintain an internet connection 24/7 (or at least every time they run the game.) Internet connections are spotty and slow in many places, both inside of and outside the U.S. Not to mention, that's an extra expense for most people. On top of that, look at the demographic of Trainzers. Now, I'd like to see some official survey data, but having spent four years on these forums, I can reasonably say a very disproportionate number, if not most, of the users are generally either very young or very old - the exact opposite of the demographic of mainstream video games. Unlike the prized 18-24 set, or even the 18-49 demographic, most really young or older people don't have a lot of discretionary income.
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