Does anyone remember when...? Nothing has changed even a decade later.

[JCitron]

The current musings over TS12 SP1 HF3 seem oh so very familiar. If any of you have been with the product and community long enough, you'll notice that the complaints and actions really haven't changed much over the years. There are the adopters and then there are the Kvetches. The Kvetches kvetch over the "newness" and how the features weren't in the package. They go on to say how complicated things are with the new changes are, and how this complicates the content creation process. Granted, and yes I have to say, that the transition between Trainz UTC and TRS2004 was a bit easier as that didn't introduce the error checking found in TRS2006 and up which I won't go into details here.

Now having said this, thinking about this let's look back about a decade now to TRS2004.

TRS2004 came out and people complained that the passenger interactive stations weren't interactive! Cars did the escalator move up hills and floated 6 feet in the air. There's was nothing like seeing a floating Chevy pick-up truck at a rail crossing! The passenger interaction came later with SP1 because Auran had to meet a publication deadline promised to their distributors. They shipped without that published feature with a promise of an immediate patch afterwards. SP1 went in and then there were bugs. Content was broken and things crashed. Oh there were bugs, alright! People really complained loudly, and rightly so, in the forums which brought out SP2 which introduced more bugs. The bugs were so bad that the program crashed very badly right to the desktop for some people. The community complained. We worked together to resolve the issues while the Kvetches kvetched louder how TRS2004 was the worst product ever. Oh they were going to abandon Trainz and never look at it again... Rant, rave, complain, kvetch. This went on for a few weeks. SP3 followed to fix bugs while introducing more. With this patch there was some of the worst stuttering. The dreaded buffering bar would appear on the screen while in Surveyor and worse with it most of the time in Driver, making the experience awful. The disks were constantly thrashing even on the best systems and content was popping up instead of appearing fluidly. SP4 came out and the product remained at that level. Everyone loved and still loves TRS2004 SP4. Oh that was the best version ever they say while they forget the trials and tribulations to get to that point.

So nothing has changed even a decade later. There are always the early adopters. The ones that help push the product farther up the track and help work out the bugs and then there are the Kvetches. That's group of people who find something to complain and grump about and nay say everything including some minor quirks that need fixing still. Then everyone will forget when TS1xxxxx comes out sometime in the future. Oh, TS12 SP1 HF3 was the best product ever! This new one is...

John

 

[boc61]

Very true. Then there was the spectre of KUJU on the horizon and the fanboy wars broke out in earnest. Then they went global when TRS 2006 came out, further splintering the community. Then we had The Great Forum Crash with it's associated conspiracy theories. Fun times, eh?

BTW, props to you for using Kvetch. On of my favorite colloquialisms.

 

[nicky9499]

I got started with Trainz with a demo of TRS04. And I even remember how I found it: search engine result for "athearn trainz". I made a tiny single-board layout because I didn't know how to add more baseboards, thinking it was a demo limitation! It had valleys and grass and rivers and lots of bridges, oh it was great fun. Couple months later I bought from JustTrains a boxed set of TRS2006 shipped from the UK, because back then there was no such thing as digital download. The airfreight cost more than the software itself! Old times.

:hehe:

 

[JCitron]

I forgot about the Kuju thing and MSTS2 coming out which it didn't. The GRC really splintered things more. We've never quite recovered from that. Kvetch is something I grew up with. My dad used to speak Yiddish in his house when he grew up and we've picked up many of the little colloquialisms from the language and culture.

John

 

[RRSignal]

The difference now is the new DRM N3V introduced and, most likely, an entirely new business model: Subscription software, which the entire software industry is trending towards. Not mention that N3V, if past conversations with N3V and the rest of the industry are any indication, will almost certainly have the ability to deactivate the software you paid for, not to mention, effectively render any creations you make unusable. Trainz users should ask themselves, with these trends in mind, is it really worth supporting the 12-year-old Trainz platform anymore?

 

[boc61]

I forgot about the Kuju thing and MSTS2 coming out which it didn't. The GRC really splintered things more. We've never quite recovered from that. Kvetch is something I grew up with. My dad used to speak Yiddish in his house when he grew up and we've picked up many of the little colloquialisms from the language and culture.

John

Growing up in a multi ethnic area, my vocabulary is nicely enhanced by a plethora of foreign phrases, from Yiddish, Spanish, Italian, even a little Gaelic. As I traveled about I've managed to add a little Korean, Japanese, German and others to it.

 

[RRSignal]

I forgot about the Kuju thing and MSTS2 coming out which it didn't. The GRC really splintered things more. We've never quite recovered from that. Kvetch is something I grew up with. My dad used to speak Yiddish in his house when he grew up and we've picked up many of the little colloquialisms from the language and culture.

John

Funny, I never picked up any Yiddish. My wife, who isn't temotely Jewish, probably knows more than I do.

 

[nicky9499]

The difference now is the new DRM N3V introduced and, most likely, an entirely new business model: Subscription software, which the entire software industry is trending towards.

Actually, said DRM actually has a far smaller impact than you make it out to be. Auran has so far put out like.. a handful of DLC content. So now they've slapped DRM on those (aka, not lock your entire TRS installation EA/Ubi-style). Sure, they're making some money off these DLC and it's in their best interests to keep it legit. However, if you compare it to an enterprise such as JointedRail or even RRMods, I'm sure their sales figures would be more by at least an order of magnitude. And look, JR doesn't have DRM!

Do I have to fork out extra for features intentionally left at launch? No. Do I have to renew my Trainz license each year? No. Do I have to pay for some Gold access to access multiplayer functionality? No. As far as subscription software goes, the only expense I see is the DLS. And that's extraordinary value no matter how you cut it.

Not mention that N3V, if past conversations with N3V and the rest of the industry are any indication, will almost certainly have the ability to deactivate the software you paid for, not to mention, effectively render any creations you make unusable.

Please provide solid evidence of such intention on N3V's part. These are big accusations and possible seriously implications to Trainz should they be true.

is it really worth supporting the 12-year-old Trainz platform anymore?

Yes.

Although I have quite abit of respect for you and the work you do, alot of your statements made against Auran only serve up the logical but puzzling conclusion that you're trying to create dissent within the Trainz community and/or driving users away.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

yes i have noticed this. i have noticed it all over the net. i think the internet just gives people the impression they have the right to complain and make a post or blog about it. not that they dont, but certainly nobody is obligated to listen to their babbling on.

it has happened here with every version of trainz i can remember. seems to happen with every release of windows too. :hehe: it is always "im never going to [new version of software] the old one is great and ill stick with it forever!" or "[it only works if it works how i want it to]" they seem to like the 'following' they get, or i guess just knowing that others have the same unreasonable views that they do. i guess it makes them feel better about themselves in such a lonely world.

i enjoy the emails we get at JR from these types "you would make SOOOO much money if you made what i want to have"

really...

 

[RRSignal]

Actually, said DRM actually has a far smaller impact than you make it out to be. Auran has so far put out like.. a handful of DLC content. So now they've slapped DRM on those (aka, not lock your entire TRS installation EA/Ubi-style). Sure, they're making some money off these DLC and it's in their best interests to keep it legit. However, if you compare it to an enterprise such as JointedRail or even RRMods, I'm sure their sales figures would be more by at least an order of magnitude. And look, JR doesn't have DRM!

They have, but there are two problems: First, when the DLC was originally sold, this was not part of the contract. That aside, if you do own any DLC (and a lot if not most of us do) then even owning one piece of content requires an internet connection and all the products, services and problems that come with it.

That JR is able to do what they do without DRM should be a good indicator to N3V that DRM is not needed to protect the product. Obviously, though, the longer-term goal is to move towards a subscription-based service.

Do I have to fork out extra for features intentionally left at launch? No. Do I have to renew my Trainz license each year? Do I have to pay for some Gold access to access multiplayer functionality? No. As far as subscription software goes, the only expense I see is the DLS. And that's extraordinary value no matter how you cut it

You didn't GET all the features advertised at launch, hence the need for patches. That's why bugfixes are called FIXES. Take a look at the SP1 list alone There are 7 "improvements"* versus nearly 60 bugfixes.

Please provide solid evidence of such intention on N3V's part. These are big accusations and possible seriously implications to Trainz should they be true.

Hmm, it's called industry trends. Something people use to look for...oh, I guess, industry trends.

Ever hear of Adobe? They make a few popular products - Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat, etc. They recently switched to a subscription-only model.

There's another small company, called Microsoft - that is rapidly moving towards a subscription model for their line off office-productivity software. One of their key the products is called Office 365, which may (depending on how things work out) obsolete local-based versions of Office (which Microsoft can also refuse to activate, much as a best-case scenario with N3V's DRM.)

You also might want to Google SaaS (Software-as-a-Service), which has been a long-term trend in the industry.

EA and Ubisoft have also moved to what is effectively similar to a subscription service (especially in terms of software usability/accessibility) for SimCity and Silent Hunter, respectively, with "always-on" DRM. However, DRM doesn't necessarily need to be "always-on" in order for a subscription service to work, nor does said business model have to necessarily be subscription-only.

On another note, Apple is another company that, while not technically jumping on the SaaS/subscription bandwagon (because they are not primarily a software company,) has long used DRM to lock its customers to their platform.

I have quite abit of respect for you and the work you do, but alot of your statements made against Auran only serve up the logically puzzling conclusion that you're trying to create dissent within the Trainz community and/or driving users away.

It's puzzling only if you don't understand the issue at all. N3V themselves have admitted the DRM (albeit couched in vague terms about 'what the future may bring'). One of their own programmers brought up the comparison to Apple. And, in case you missed it, another user brought up the subscription plan in another thread...oddly enough, the very same N3V representative that was very quick to deny, confirm or explain every little letter of detail failed to deny that N3V would go a subscription route. Of course, this is the same company that wasn't initially upfront about the DRM in the first place, not to mention uses VERY shady advertising ethics, so it's up to each user to make a judgment call as to the ethics of this company as a whole.

 

[amigacooke]

They have, but there are two problems: First, when the DLC was originally sold, this was not part of the contract. That aside, if you do own any DLC (and a lot if not most of us do) then even owning one piece of content requires an internet connection and all the products, services and problems that come with it.

I've been to check and the content I bought under the old system is still available in the same format that I bought it in. If I chose to I could run it in just the same manner as when I bought it.

 

[RRSignal]

I've been to check and the content I bought under the old system is still available in the same format that I bought it in. If I chose to I could run it in just the same manner as when I bought it.

Unfortunately, I can't. Not with the features that were originally advertised.

 

[amigacooke]

Unfortunately, I can't. Not with the features that were originally advertised.

Which features are you missing then?

 

[RRSignal]

Which features are you missing then?

A functioning Merge function and splines that don't glitch. Those are the worst offenders. I'm trying to merge my SEPTA and my Northeast Corridor mega-routes I'm working on, so not having that functionality is a serious issue.

 

[nicky9499]

They have, but there are two problems: First, when the DLC was originally sold, this was not part of the contract. That aside, if you do own any DLC (and a lot if not most of us do) then even owning one piece of content requires an internet connection and all the products, services and problems that come with it.

That JR is able to do what they do without DRM should be a good indicator to N3V that DRM is not needed to protect the product. Obviously, though, the longer-term goal is to move towards a subscription-based service.

No, I don't believe most of us own N3V's DLC. If one does not agree with the DRM in aforementioned DLC, then simply don't buy it. I've always loved The Sims and SimCity, but EA and their recent SimCity title represents the pinnacle of DRM-a$$holism. So I didn't buy it. The new Xbox will require a persistant internet connection. Similarly, I will not be buying that. Your Trainz will continue functioning just fine without DLC, I'm sure.

You didn't GET all the features advertised at launch, hence the need for patches. That's why bugfixes are called FIXES. Take a look at the SP1 list alone There are 7 "improvements"* versus nearly 60 bugfixes.

Were you missing a Surveyor module when you purchased the game? Did you find upon purchase that there were no American content, which could be bought separately in a "US Community Asset Pack"? I'm sitting here without SP1 and am getting along just fine. Apparently so are many others. And the 7 improvements you mention; they are improvements. Are they new features never seen before? New feature previously advertised in TS12 but not present heretofore? Like any other developer, Auran is working to improve their software and you are complaining about it why?

Hmm, it's called industry trends. Something people use to look for...oh, I guess, industry trends.
Ever hear of Adobe? They make a few popular products - Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat, etc. They recently switched to a subscription-only model.
There's another small company, called Microsoft - that is rapidly moving towards a subscription model for their line off office-productivity software. One of their key the products is called Office 365, which may (depending on how things work out) obsolete local-based versions of Office (which Microsoft can also refuse to activate, much as a best-case scenario with N3V's DRM.)

Show us a similar declaration from Auran that they're going to do that same.

It's puzzling only if you don't understand the issue at all. N3V themselves have admitted the DRM (albeit couched in vague terms about 'what the future may bring'). One of their own programmers brought up the comparison to Apple. And, in case you missed it, another user brought up the subscription plan in another thread...oddly enough, the very same N3V representative that was very quick to deny, confirm or explain every little letter of detail failed to deny that N3V would go a subscription route. Of course, this is the same company that wasn't initially upfront about the DRM in the first place, not to mention uses VERY shady advertising ethics, so it's up to each user to make a judgment call as to the ethics of this company as a whole.

He didn't deny the subscription thing so it automatically means the next Trainz will stop shipping boxed copies? That's like saying I didn't deny being a psychopath and therefore I must have killed dozens of people.

 

[RRSignal]

No, I don't believe most of us own N3V's DLC. If one does not agree with the DRM in aforementioned DLC, then simply don't buy it. I've always loved The Sims and SimCity, but EA and their recent SimCity title represents the pinnacle of DRM-a$$holism. So I didn't buy it. The new Xbox will require a persistant internet connection. Similarly, I will not be buying that. Your Trainz will continue functioning just fine without DLC, I'm sure.

The problem is, when I bought the DLC - the first piece of which was purchased over two years ago - I wasn't required to have an internet connection. Nor was I required to have one the last time I purchased DLC back in September 2012. However, now N3V requires this. That wasn't part of the ads nor the EULA I agreed to. Liike you, I would simply have not bought any of it were it a requirement as I find it objectionable. I wasn't given that option.

Were you missing a Surveyor module when you purchased the game? Did you find upon purchase that there were no American content, which could be bought separately in a "US Community Asset Pack"? I'm sitting here without SP1 and am getting along just fine. Apparently so are many others. And the 7 improvements you mention; they are improvements. Are they new features never seen before? New feature previously advertised in TS12 but not present heretofore? Like any other developer, Auran is working to improve their software and you are complaining about it why?

I don't CARE ABOUT THE SO-CALLED IMPROVEMENTS. I do have a right to WHAT I PAID FOR! What's so difficult about this concept to grasp?

Show us a similar declaration from Auran that they're going to do that same.

Unfortunately, I don't have the power to jump forwards and backwards in time. Most likely, if I did, I'd own N3V. So, I can make assessments based on statements (or lack thereof) such as post #49 by Windwalkr:

Have I? I don't really remember saying that, though I don't specifically disagree. Reasonably priced subscription models tend to work well for both users and developers. It's an encouragement for the developer to keep users engaged, it typically means that everybody uses the same version of the game, and it means that the user can control how much they spend- if the game has less value to them than what they're spending, then they can stop playing. On the developer's side, it evens out cashflow and helps determine how much money is reasonable to commit at any given time. It encourages frequent releases to the customers, rather than occasional monolithic releases.

The main downside is that if the entire game is covered by a monthly subscription, someone who stops playing can't simply pick it up for a single day "for old times sake"- they need to commit to playing "seriously." Obviously you could consider a model where this isn't true, but the subscriptions that I've seen in the past have always been a per-month thing.

I must say that this makes more sense for games where community involvement is paramount. It makes less sense for play-through-once-then-put-away games. Trainz is possibly somewhere in between for most people.

He didn't deny the subscription thing so it automatically means the next Trainz will stop shipping boxed copies? That's like saying I didn't deny being a psychopath and therefore I must have killed dozens of people.

What do BOXED COPIES have to do with the price of tea in China? Plenty of heavily DRMed software is sold boxed...like Railworks, for one.




But, yeah, a reasonably intelligent person would look at the trend of the software industry as a whole, look at N3V's own statements, and put the two together.

Not all of us have to wait until after the horse is gone to close the barn door.

 

[nicky9499]

The problem is, when I bought the DLC - the first piece of which was purchased over two years ago - I wasn't required to have an internet connection. Nor was I required to have one the last time I purchased DLC back in September 2012. However, now N3V requires this. That wasn't part of the ads nor the EULA I agreed to. Liike you, I would simply have not bought any of it were it a requirement as I find it objectionable. I wasn't given that option.

Ok then, you've already bought said DLC and now you're unhappy. Were this a physical product you'd have the right to request a refund. However since this is software and general consensus is "no refunds", vote with your wallet, stop supporting these objectionable requirements and don't purchase future N3V DLC.

I don't CARE ABOUT THE SO-CALLED IMPROVEMENTS. I do have a right to WHAT I PAID FOR! What's so difficult about this concept to grasp?

You got what you paid for, now they're making it better. What's the issue? I paid for Windows 7, now your "small company" Microsoft has released an SP1 to improve on it. Should Win7 users now also go bitching to them about how they don't care for their so-called improvements?

Unfortunately, I don't have the power to jump forwards and backwards in time. Most likely, if I did, I'd own N3V. So, I can make assessments based on statements (or lack thereof) such as post #49 by Windwalkr:

Ok, with this post there is credible reason to believe that Chris, not N3V, would prefer Trainz go the subscription route. No I do not agree with him one bit, but again Chris doesn't represent the whole of N3V or even where the brew crew might be heading towards. Until the day it comes to light that the next iteration of Trainz would be subscription-based, any such claims are just fear-mongering. And even it that happens, you can simply choose not to support such development. Even Chris has said; "just don't patch".

What do BOXED COPIES have to do with the price of tea in China? Plenty of heavily DRMed software is sold boxed...like Railworks, for one.
But, yeah, a reasonably intelligent person would look at the trend of the software industry as a whole, look at N3V's own statements, and put the two together.
Not all of us have to wait until after the horse is gone to close the barn door.

There's a misunderstanding here. By boxed I mean regular, good old fashioned pop-disc-in-and-play-offline software. DRM has always been closely correlated to digital distribution such as Steam, uPlay and Origin. Even the Railworks you mention is no longer available in boxed copy. I would also ignore said trend because Trainz is not developed by a mega evil game studio corporation. Despite the name change it's still less than a handful of developers who share the same interests as the rest of the Trainz community.

You may close the barn door now and leave if you so wish, but please stop spreading fear and false alarm about the future of the Trainz franchise.

Cheerio,
Nicholas

 

[boc61]

The difference now is the new DRM N3V introduced and, most likely, an entirely new business model: Subscription software, which the entire software industry is trending towards. Not mention that N3V, if past conversations with N3V and the rest of the industry are any indication, will almost certainly have the ability to deactivate the software you paid for, not to mention, effectively render any creations you make unusable. Trainz users should ask themselves, with these trends in mind, is it really worth supporting the 12-year-old Trainz platform anymore?

For me, yes.

 

[amigacooke]

A functioning Merge function and splines that don't glitch. Those are the worst offenders. I'm trying to merge my SEPTA and my Northeast Corridor mega-routes I'm working on, so not having that functionality is a serious issue.

I can see that your particular set of circumstances are very frustrating. However, it's stretching credulity to assume that your problem with TS12 and the DLC are common to everyone else.

 

[RRSignal]

Ok then, you've already bought said DLC and now you're unhappy. Were this a physical product you'd have the right to request a refund. However since this is software and general consensus is "no refunds", vote with your wallet, stop supporting these objectionable requirements and don't purchase future N3V DLC.

Oh, I intend to, but there is still are multiple legal issues here i.e. truth-in-advertising as well as contractual agreements here.

You got what you paid for, now they're making it better. What's the issue? I paid for Windows 7, now your "small company" Microsoft has released an SP1 to improve on it. Should Win7 users now also go bitching to them about how they don't care for their so-called improvements?

I'd disagree that it's "better" and, regardless, the issue is not whatever value-added bonuses N3V added; I'm still entitled to what was advertised at the time of sale and what I agreed to purchase. The so-called "improvements" have no relevance whatsoever to the issues at hand.

Ok, with this post there is credible reason to believe that Chris, not N3V, would prefer Trainz go the subscription route. No I do not agree with him one bit, but again Chris doesn't represent the whole of N3V or even where the brew crew might be heading towards. Until the day it comes to light that the next iteration of Trainz would be subscription-based, any such claims are just fear-mongering. And even it that happens, you can simply choose not to support such development. Even Chris has said; "just don't patch".

There is no need to reach or make excuses here. Chris is a representative of the company, and pretty intimately involved with the product as well as the decisions influencing its direction. Moreover, Chris could have noted that the opinions expressed were his own and there has been ample time for other N3V representatives to correct his statement. And, let's say N3V does issue a correction: N3V wasn't upfront about the fact that they were including DRM (see the link to the SP1 patch), so why should we believe anything they say? DRM is, to say the least, a hot-button issue.

There's a misunderstanding here. By boxed I mean regular, good old fashioned pop-disc-in-and-play-offline software. DRM has always been closely correlated to digital distribution such as Steam, uPlay and Origin. Even the Railworks you mention is no longer available in boxed copy.

Um, no, big difference between digital distribution and DRM, and the history of DRM goes back before digital distribution was mainstream. Adobe and Microsoft have long-included DRM with physical copy. Windows XP (2001) and Office 2003 used a form of it in the form of product activation, for example. By contrast, all of the games Strategy First sells are digital downloads, but most don't have DRM at all.

I would also ignore said trend because Trainz is not developed by a mega evil game studio corporation. Despite the name change it's still less than a handful of developers who share the same interests as the rest of the Trainz community.

Ooooh, boy. I...I can't stop shaking my head long enough to respond to what's wrong with that statement...

...I'm not even sure where to start BEGINNING to point out everything wrong in that statement...

...except to say that SP1 looks to be a beta of a larger DRM scheme, much as the multiplayer beta for TS2010 was a test of a larger multiplayer scheme. Which is yet something the quick-to-deny folks at N3V never did last time it was asked.

You may close the barn door now and leave if you so wish, but please stop spreading fear and false alarm about the future of the Trainz franchise.

No, I think I'll spread accurate information, so I'll keep mentioning it, as well as pointing out the direction the industry is taking. You can continue to bury your head in the sand, if you wish, or keep reaching for well-beyond-far-fetched excuses. But, of course, when N3V institutes the next phase of DRM, or even moves to a subscription-based market model, those of us who heeded these warnings will be the ones laughing, all while keeping our money. That's a win-win!