diverge converge signal assistance needed please

[dstelley]

I've been through the tutorials and have looked at about as many guides as I can find and I'm stiil confused about a couple small things.
Maybe its how I look at it, so I come for guidance!

If I have a single line that branches off, I'd call it a diverging right correct? If I use searchlight signals I'd likely use an 06RD.

But what if the line merges into the single line from the right? I think of it as converging right. The line coming in would get an 04 signal.

But what if within a couple short distance I have a single line with a converging and a diverging line? I cant seem to understand how I'd likely place the signals?

Its possible to have traffic coming from all sides, no single direction traffic. I dont want to place many signals on the mainline for fear of corn field meets.

I'd place a picture but I am not sure how. Did I give enough info?
Thanks in advance!

 

[kin3]

I am not very good at this either but, for me I had to start in one direction and put signals up in that direction only until I got it to work. Then I started on the other end and worked back adding as I went. Also I looked at different route and looked at how they did it. I know I'm not much help but keep reading and trying.

 

[sniper297]

Dunno what an 06 is, but that's how I'd do it. Two things railroads use - block signal system and interlocking. Interlocking is used at big or complicated junctions, so over a given route the switches are set and locked and all signals are clear for that one route and red for any conflicting routes over the same track. Block signal system is simpler, the tracks are divided into blocks X number of feet/yards/miles long depending on the length of the trains you intend to run on the route and how far apart they'll be. When a train passes a signal he's occupying two blocks, the one he's leaving and the one he's entering. In the above example there would be other 04 signals off to the left and right, and the signal behind the train coming from one of the left tracks would stay red until the back of the train passed the first 04 signal. If he then went straight ahead and the following train was supposed to take the right diverge, the sequence would be (A) last car of train 1 clears left 04, previous signal goes yellow, train 2 enters that block and approaches left 04, which is till red. Train 1 clears USA 02 on the left track, switch changes right, left 04 clears, USA02 changes from red over red to red over green, train 2 proceeds on left track. Coming the opposite way it would work the same, if the intention is to have two way traffic you do that with trackmarks and give the opposing trains Drive Via instructions to route them for the right track or left track depending on which region you're modeling.

 

[Dermmy]

The 02s aren't right. In the real world any train stopped there fouls the whole thing and in the Trainz world leads to an AI stand-off. In both worlds a train needs to stop clear of an interlocking, not in it.

I'd probably use 08s where the 04s are (cause they are damned sexy signals!) but 06s where the 04s are would probably be closer to prototype. If you use scripted signals, both 06RD in the foreground (set to R,L on the left and L,L on the right) and both 06LD in the distance (set to L,R on the left and R,R on the right) you will get highball greens on the straight route and cautions on the diverging and reverse curve routes.

Edit: It just occurs to me that you could probably force a 'caution' as the highest possible aspect on the converging curved routes (right hand foreground and background sigs) if you set the first lever opposite to above for those two signals. I haven't set it up, but it should work...

 

[Isegrinns]

I´d use 08s as well. Or some other interlocking type signals which can be edited.

 

[sniper297]

I still think of myself as a trainz noob, what I've been using is what I know works in other trainsims. And I do get standoffs between AI trains, but they always settle it with rock-paper-scissors or something eventually. Got 01 through 05 in the built in US signals, from what I've read 01, 03, and 05 are permissives so I've been using only 02 and 04 so far. First I've heard of 06 and 08, don't even know what those are.

That said, it also depends on the length of the single track section and what you want to do with it - if the single track is long enough and you want following trains to enter the single track block before the preceding train clears the next block beyond the diverge, then you use a double head home signal at the facing points. If you want following trains to stay on doubletrack until they have a clear block in the next doubletrack block, then you interlock the junctions.

In this example everything from the 02 signals to the 04 signals at the far end is a single block for each track. Double head interlocking is showing red over red because the near switch is thrown for the left track, it would also display that aspect if the near switch was set for the right track and the far switch was set for a track that had a train still in the block before the 04 signals.

Both switches straight, since this is an L02 and it's a left diverge going this direction, got green over red.

Far switch set the other way, red over green.

Again depending on the length of the single track section, what type and length trains you're running and how fast they will run, you could also set 04s facing into the single track section so that when the last car cleared the far switch the near doublehead would clear the following train to enter the single track, that would work about the same way as the original suggestion except there would be no info on which way the facing points were set once you entered the single track section. I use the CNR switchstands so it doesn't matter for me, the reason I usually suggest the example in post #3 is that it's simple to understand and works for most basic junctions.

 

[Isegrinns]

Andy and me are talking about the Jointed Rail signals...
Besides them, in case you dont want to have Searchlight or Safetran signals, try messing with grahamsea´s signals.

 

[Dermmy]

Yep, any kind of scripted sig will give better results and it occurs to me that a lot of the rock/paper/scissors scenarios you describe could well be down to 'obsolete' signal logic. Those things were good in their day but pretty sure they have been around since Trainz 1.3

Anyway, what you have will work, but it should still be 06s or 08s, unless the old built-ins have an odd naming convention, cause it looks like much the same thing.

If the single track length between the junctions is longer then it's a whole other can of worms where you would use an 06 permissive at each end of the single track, but the OP reads like your track set-up is correct. Two junctions that close would be signalled and operated as a single interlocking with no intermediate sigs.

I'd like to know more about the OPs tracks and their purpose though. As it stands the whole set-up looks a bit 'false'. I see three options:

1.If both of the diverging roads are dead-end spurs serving industries or wahever, I'd just put a dwarf on the sidings (if that!) and leave the single main line unsignalled. That makes the main AND the siding(s) a single block for switching.

2. If one of the diverging roads is a traffic line and the other a spur it is more likely that the spur would run off a second junction at the opposite end, a track arrangement that looked like a crossover.

3. This is the option we've been talking about but if the diverging roads are through roads or 'main line' then I doubt that track arrangement would exist - it is more likely both running lines would continue through and then it's just a double cross-over with 08s.....

 

[sniper297]

Old built ins apparently do have a different naming convention, I got all my n00b info from here;

http://trains.0catch.com/tutorial.html

I'll get to the JR signals eventually, since I really would prefer signals that can be linked across multiple junctions. On the Chicago Metro at Western Avenue Interlocking and Tower 18 I made extensive use of trigger multiple signals to keep the mayhem to a minimum, but that's really tedious to set up for a lot of diamond crossings. For the new route I avoided diamond crossings completely, using junctions like this:

Double track main from the bottom curves right, outer curve has a wye where the double track from the top joins, with crossovers before and after the single track connections. Upper right curve is one branchline going to a logging camp and oil field, eventually ties back into the mainline at another wye. Lower right is the AI coal drag coming from the mine which joins the mainline at a different place. Using linkable signals would simplify the whole mess, but whatever I use has to be TS12 multiplayer compatible, meaning all signals and all dependencies have to be on the DLS and error free.

Main thing with signals is the purpose, they exist to stop the trains from running into each other, so the prototype uses the minimum number they need to get the job done. If the original poster's configuration is intended for two way traffic on either line then more signals would be needed for that than for a plain vanilla left hand running or right hand running setup.

 

[Dermmy]

If the original poster's configuration is intended for two way traffic on either line then more signals would be needed for that than for a plain vanilla left hand running or right hand running setup.

Nope, the discussed solution will do the job just fine! Don't know if you have seen my Clovis Sub (and if you haven't don't bother, it looks dead ordinary in later versions!) but on it there is a couple hundred miles of double track hi-speed dual directional main lines with a double crossover every few miles signalled exactly as above. I have a fairly traffic-intense session on that which has run for forty or fifty hours (honestly I forget!) but I have never layed a hand on it, the AI has resolved every situation including numerous three-way meets without issue - and without the rock/paper/scissors thing either. One train just runs smoothly past the two which have come to a stand, then one or other of them gets under way the instant the switch is cleared. Too fast really, a short delay would actually be in order....

 

[sniper297]

"discussed solution will do the job just fine", yeah, I stated that sdrawckab to what I actually meant, for regular left or right handed running without the option to run both directions on both tracks you would need less signals than the examples.

I downloaded all the safetran signals and proceeded to google tutorials for same, having no luck. What I'm looking at;

Safetran CLight Signal 08-1 Interlocking,<kuid2:45324:24347:1>
Safetran NS Signal dwarf,<kuid2:45324:24006:2>
Safetran NS Signal dwarf (Siding),<kuid2:45324:24003:2>
Safetran NS Signal 03,<kuid2:45324:24001:2>
Safetran NS Signal 04,<kuid2:45324:24000:2>
Safetran NS Signal 05,<kuid2:45324:24002:2>
Safetran NS Signal 06-LD,<kuid2:45324:24008:2>
Safetran NS Signal 06-RD,<kuid2:45324:24005:2>

The 08 is a 3 head with no settings, click the question mark and click the signal and there's no option to do anything other than give it a name. Both dwarfs, the 03 and 04 are the same, no configuration options. The 05 has option for approach lit yes/no, the 06 has settings for L, F, and R, difference between the LD and RD appears to be which is default. Also has settings to Add more for defining straight path through junctions.

Questions - how is that used in the 06? Facing points only, or add for each trailing point as well? R and L are obvious, what's F? What are 03, 04, and 05 used for, what's the "approach lit" in 05 do? What's the difference between the regular dwarf and the siding dwarf?

 

[Dermmy]

Firstly, get the full new set from JR. I just know you are going to say 'DLS only', but do yourself a huge favour and get the JR set

Approach lit is becoming standard US practice. It's an energy/cost saving thing. Instead of about a million red signal globes burning 24/7 with no train within a zillion miles the signal only becomes 'lit' as a train 'approaches'.

'F' = forwards, being the centre option on a three-way junction. 'C'= Center might have been better!

06 used for facing junctions ('Distant' version will avoid standoffs at the end of single track sections when entering loops) also used sometimes at the end of sidings on the curved approach to a trailing junction. Use the absolute version there.

The different dwarfs show different aspects if placed in the same location. The 'siding' version seems best in 'most' locations where a dwarf would be typically used....

 

[sniper297]

"I just know you are going to say 'DLS only', but do yourself a huge favour and get the JR set"

Can't do it, whatever routes I upload have to be multiplayer compatible, so anything from 3rd party websites has to be ruled out.

"'F' = forwards, being the centre option on a three-way junction. 'C'= Center might have been better!" Okay, so no 3 way switches no worries on that one.

"06 used for facing junctions", for an interlocking it should theoretically be usable on the trailing points, question is how to set it up? Got a two tracks merging to one with a yard lead coming in just before the merge, so the signal would be just before the first trailing point. If these had links like the other two trainsims I would place the primary next to the signal and stretch both secondary links across both trailing points all the way past the next facing point to the straight and diverge of the facing point beyond the single track section. For this, with no actual links, would just the L or R alone work, or would you need to add more L and/or R for each trailing point switch?

 

[Dermmy]

Add an L/R/F for each junction protected by that signal.

You have to be a bit careful, the L and R are always defined looking at the junction from the lever end irrespective of the direction of travel. It is very easy to define a trailing junction back-to-front!

I have a rough and ready rule of thumb that if there are one or two levers protected an 06 gets used, three or more levers get an 08. That makes the signalling look pretty, but functionally the two signals are pretty much the same thing.

 

[JohnnyC1]

On the DLS there are a set of 5 invisible signals, Trainz Classics 3 and will work on T12:
L5 Invisible signal Converging
L5 Invisible signal Diverging
L5 Invisible signal Permissive
L5 Invisible signal Typical
L5 Invisible signal Always Proceed
These are great for situations where a visible signal would be nonprotipacal. Placing these before converging and diverging yard tracks will greatly assist in the Couple at Trackmark/Couple to commands and help avoid the rock/paper/AI stand-off.

John