Did steam locos need to look like steam locos?

Germany experimented with a diesel-pneumatic hybrid in the late steam/early diesel era which was about the opposite of Deanne's original query. The thing had a boxy diesel-like body on something derived from a conventional 4-6-4 outside cylinder steam chassis. The diesel engine drove a compressor which delivered compressed air rather than steam to pretty much a bog-standard steam drive train. At a casual glance though it looked like a steam loco with a box-like superstructure....

germ1200_small.jpg
 
Last edited:
Hi Dermmy
I have to disagree on the idea of compounding, as it definitely worked, and worked well if used correctly. It should be noted that the main issue with compounding was the forces involved on the mechanical components. It also wasn't so much about power (although it did improve this!), but efficiency.

The main idea behind compounding is to allow the steam to expand further in a larger cylinder (it can expand a LOT, with a single cylinder not using it even close to fully). In the case of the Vauclain compound system (and other 4 cylinder compound systems - there were 2 cylinder systems, which had the high pressure cylinder one side, and the low pressure cylinder the other), the left hand 'high pressure' cylinder (which received steam from the boiler) will 'push' the steam (which is still under pressure!) into the larger 'low pressure' cylinder on the opposite side of the loco. As it entered the cylinder, the loco effectively formed a vacuum that 'sucked' the steam in. As it entered, it expanded, powering the cylinder.

The VR's V class was successful as a compound, so long as it was driven correctly. Overuse of the simpling/starting valve meant that there was more wear on components, and the locos were less efficient. However, compounding did find quite extensive use on European railways (with a number of examples surviving), as well as on many designs of 'road steam' (steam rollers, traction engines, portable engines, etc - generally as 2 cylinder compounds, which necessitate the use of a starting valve, as they're effectively a 1 cylinder engine when starting!), and on ships... Ships actually took this further, going to triple and I believe quadruple (?) expansion engines, which used the steam 3 or 4 times respectively. The Olympic class liners (Olympic, Titanic, Brittanic) all had two triple expansion engines (4 cylinders, high pressure, 'mid' pressure, and twin 'low pressure' cylinders due to space requirements) fitted, which are simply an improvement on the 'compounding' system :)

As above, one of the major downsides to compounding is the wear on the mechanical components (particularly the cross-head guides IIRC). The 'killing' blow to the system came with the invention/introduction of superheating, which was far easier to maintain, and could give similar efficiency improvements. One thing that does have me curious is if a compound loco could also have had a superheater fitted, and what sort of performance/efficiency would have occurred with this...

On a note, a steam loco can remove reciprocating components (minus the connecting rod from the cylinders - but that's no different to a standard internal combustion engine in many ways ;) ). This is shown quite well with the Shay, Climax, Heisler, and other geared locos. Admittedly, they are slow speed tramway locos (designed for power and ability to negotiate sharp curves, on rough track), but they are 'geared' drive.

Sentinal built chain drive steam locos (tramway/shunting locos in this case), which again only had the con rod from the pistons to a 'crankshaft' of sorts.

In theory, in this day and age, a 'steam loco in a diesel shell' could be built. An oil burning (or LPG, or PBC/pulverised brown coal, or other 'liquid' or 'liquid like' fuel) loco could be built with a modern 'package boiler' (Which are actually still made), which is essentially automatic (generally operated under some form of 'supervision'). This would allow the cab to be at the front, with the 'firebox' (or equivalent) to still be closest to the fuel source. With a 'liquid' fire, you would in theory be able to use a steam turbine to operate the loco as a 'steam electric'/'steam turbine electric' loco. A decent condensing system could likely improve distance as well... You would likely be looking at a 'car body' design loco, rather than a 'hood' design, so as to fit the components though.

OTOH, improvements to the 'classic' steam loco design by L.D.Porta and others show that steam locos are quite viable in efficiency (and power...). With full roller bearings (on all moving components I would think), and automatic lubrication systems to all components, you could make a lower maintenance locomotive as well. Beyond that, we now have stronger, but lighter, materials that can be used, and with properly designed 'semi-solid' wheels (e.g. boxpok, scoap, and disc-based wheel designs, among others) the reciprocating components can have less effect on operation. All the white, it'll look generally similar, as it is a basic design that works quite well...

Regards
Zec
 
Here's another fun one, original 1880 concept for the Lake Street Elevated in Chicago as a steam powered monorail;

540112_452220561488896_939555271_n.jpg


Economic and technical problems forced them to come to their senses and build a conventional elevated structure instead.
 
Thanks for that info about Herbert Garratt guys - all the books I'd read on the subject (Aussie books I might add ;)), usually mentioned that Garratt was Australian - in fact, one book I read I distinctly remember it stated that he was Tasmanian! Goes to show that even railway books might show a slight bias in their information.

@ Zec Murphy re compound locos - funny you should mention the crosshead wear problems on the VR V class, as the WAGR Baldwin-built Ec class compound Pacifics apparently suffered from the same problem. According to Adrian Gunzburg's A History of WAGR Steam Locomotives, the problem was caused by the bypass valve fitted to the cylinders exactly as you mentioned.

As stated in the book the bypass valve was fitted to give more power when starting a train from a standstill, but drivers apparently abused this feature by using it on grades when pulling heavy loads, thus causing severe wear and tear on the crossheads and loco frames. The problem was so bad that most of the class ended up with cracked frames after only a short length of time.

Needless to say, they were later rebuilt into L class units for use on light lines with simple expansion cylinders, thus bringing the compound experiment to an end. I don't know if the VR locos had a similar fate though.
 
Here's another fun one, original 1880 concept for the Lake Street Elevated in Chicago as a steam powered monorail;

540112_452220561488896_939555271_n.jpg


Economic and technical problems forced them to come to their senses and build a conventional elevated structure instead.

It actually looks quite futuristic when considering it's an 1880's concept.
 
Last edited:
As for the use of rods and flashing valve gear, check out US patent #2417084: it had steam pushing on large cams on the inside of the frame, esentially producing something akin to a Dake Engine.

B.C. Monroe, http://www.google.com/patents/US2417084 , May 27 1943

RE Zec on your compound superheat: check out the American Mallets, like the N&W Y-class. In fact, with that superheat, that is what finally abolished the rectangular slide valve and replaced them with the circular piston valve. Which brings to mind, would (and did) anyone put rotary valve gear on articulateds?
 
Last edited:
... The coupling rods however (the ones which transmit the drive from the cranks driven by the cylinders to the cranks on the other wheels) were on the outside - think about it, they have to be! They run on a crank which describes a circle around the axle - no way can they be inside the wheels!…..
You could have crank axles for all drivers and fit the conrods between them; really just like you do on outside cylinder locos. Mark you the axle failure rate would be pretty horrendous.
 
@ Zec - the potential energy of the steam entering a cylinder from any given steam chest if finite, exact and fixed. Whether that potential is converted to kinetic energy via one set of simple expansion cylinders or multiple sets of compound expansion cylinders it is Physics 101 that the initial potential cannot be increased. The fact that compound systems 'absorb' more potential than simple systems means in fact that the potential output is decreased not increased. Almost every railway on the planet experimented with compound expansion because it looks good on paper, but in practice it is a cumbersome and expensive way (it increases both the capital costs and maintenance costs) to extract no more potential than a more efficient pair of simple cylinders. Superheating is an entirely different thing - it works because it increases the efficiency of the boiler, therefore increasing the potential energy in the steam chest. But again an efficient simple expansion cylinder system will extract as much energy from that potential as a compound system, potentially more because the energy 'robbed' by the mechanism itself is less...

@ John - OK - I'll give you that! I'll also let you tell the maintenance lads LOL...
 
The Electric company had a steam engine without a firebox. Since they create a lot of steam to drive the electric turbines they fill it up with steam and used it to move coal cars around the plant. I think it would run for 5-8 hours at a time. I have some photos of around somewhere.
 
sniper reminded me about what I read one time..It was about how they had to find another way for the first subways to use another source other then Steam..Because the smoke filled up the tunnels so bad..I assume thats when electricity came into play..
 
@ Zec - the potential energy of the steam entering a cylinder from any given steam chest if finite, exact and fixed. Whether that potential is converted to kinetic energy via one set of simple expansion cylinders or multiple sets of compound expansion cylinders it is Physics 101 that the initial potential cannot be increased. The fact that compound systems 'absorb' more potential than simple systems means in fact that the potential output is decreased not increased. Almost every railway on the planet experimented with compound expansion because it looks good on paper, but in practice it is a cumbersome and expensive way (it increases both the capital costs and maintenance costs) to extract no more potential than a more efficient pair of simple cylinders. Superheating is an entirely different thing - it works because it increases the efficiency of the boiler, therefore increasing the potential energy in the steam chest. But again an efficient simple expansion cylinder system will extract as much energy from that potential as a compound system, potentially more because the energy 'robbed' by the mechanism itself is less...

@ John - OK - I'll give you that! I'll also let you tell the maintenance lads LOL...

RE. Compounding.
If what you say is true, that compounding does not increase power. Then how come when VR converted it's fleet of Vs to simples after overhauls..did the tractive effort of the engines decrease?
 
I think Dermmy was talking about thermodynamic energy efficiency, i.e. of the total amount of energy theoretically available from the fuel, how much ends up doing useful work, as opposed to wasted in friction, exhaust steam and other hot gases etc. Power is just the rate of energy use, it says nothing about efficiency. It's possible I suppose that compounding increases power, but decreases efficiency (in the same way a V8 car is more powerful but less efficient than a 4-cylinder car).
 
I think Dermmy was talking about thermodynamic energy efficiency, i.e. of the total amount of energy theoretically available from the fuel, how much ends up doing useful work, as opposed to wasted in friction, exhaust steam and other hot gases etc. Power is just the rate of energy use, it says nothing about efficiency. It's possible I suppose that compounding increases power, but decreases efficiency (in the same way a V8 car is more powerful but less efficient than a 4-cylinder car).

Wrong, sorry, but wrong. Compounding INCREASES EFFICIENCY at the cost of slower speeds. Think about the large volumes of twice-expanded steam, very near to atmospheric pressure. It does not want to go anywhere in a really hurry, so at high speeds, back-pressure builds up in a hurry, effectively limiting maximum speed very quickly, to say nothing of the valve port size and tightened cutoff! Compounding extracts more work from the steam before releasing it, meaning that coal use is reduced by 20-30% for the same work performed.

True story: Old Maud (0-6-6-0) on the B&O could pull a train that needed two big Consols all on her lonesome.

Properly designed systems can equalize the thrust developed in cross-compounds, but for highspeed ops, simple is the way to go. True, simple is less efficient, but that was not a big problem here in America. We started out compunding because we didn't want to be crawling between the frames for extra cylinders, and then we got Mallets with small boilers which wouldn't be able to hande direct feeding of 4 cyls. Once Superpower took off, then we went to straight simple, train speeds went up, loco hp went up, but TE increased only marginally due to higher BP and was negated by larger drivers, made possible through smaller simple cyls.
 
Actually, compounding doesn't have to reduce speed. It does on american compound mallets, but probebly a good chunk of that is due to having massive cylinders (so there's a lot of steam), the need for flexible piping to the front (low pressure) set of cylinders, and simply the distance between the two sets of cylinders. There were plenty of compound express engines in Europe (although only on the continent - England never really went for compounding).

That said, England was big on usng 3 and 4 cylinder engines. In pretty much all cases, there were 2 outside cylinders in the normal place, and the rest were between them inside the frames. There were also engines with only 2 cylinders, both on the inside, and no driving rods, (but still connecting rods), or cylinders on the outside. This was pretty much limited to England before 1900-1910 or so. In all cases, inside cylinders drove crank axles. Crank axles were a source of trouble at first, but by 1900 or engineering had advanced to the point where that was't a problem. If you want to see how inside cylinders work, look no farther then the Fowler 4F, included in the Settle and Carsile expansion, and in any version of trainz that has Haws junction built in. (so trs2006 at least, and I think trs2009). You can see the animated inside cylinders From the right angle. For a quicker example, good ol' Thomas the tank engine was an inside cylinder locomotive.

Actually compounding does increase efficency. It doesn't increase power, though, compared to another engine with the same number of cylinders. The french, will little domestic coal supplies, were very big on compounding.
While superheating did kill off compounding in the US and England, where it never really took off in the first place, on connential europe, superheating was added to compounding, to increase efficency farther.

However, compounding might not increase overall ecomany. While the engine will certainly burn less coal, and less water as well, in reality increased mantaince costs of the extra cylinders, their hard to acess location inside the frames, and worst of all the inside valve gear, nearly always matched, or exceeded, the money saved in coal.

That said, in engines that already had more then 2 cylinders, such as mallets, maintince costs wern't a factor. Insted, simple expansion articulateds replaced mallets in the US becacuse mallets had a limited speed due to choking on the huge volumes of low pressure steam, and the drag freight era was ending, and higher speeds were needed. However, the N&W keep with mallets right up to the end of steam in 1960 (!), the y6b being perhaps the ultimate mallet, and was capable of 60 mph.

But for the origional low-speed mallet concept carried to its extreme, look up the triplex (2-8-8-8-2, with the last set of drivers under the tender). It failed, since the cylinders couldn't produce enough steam. Another good one is the virginian railroad's 800 class, 2-10-10-2's, with 4 foot diameter low pressure cylinders. That actually worked, the boiler able to produce enough steam to push a train upgrade at 5.5 mph. With two of them pushing, a 2-8-8-2 at the front, and 5500 tons of train on a 2.11% grade, that would be something to see in trainz.

Some other fun things to see would be a mallet-garret: a 2-6-6-2+2-6-6-2! Since garrets, with their short, fat boiler and plenty of space for a firebox, were good steamers, and with enough attention to the boiler, it might well have been able to actually pull a very heavy train up a very steep grade at walking speed.
One idea I had, which no one else ever seems to have had, was a triple-expansion compound shay. Since a three cylinder shay has a set of cylinders set up nearly identically to a marine triple expansion engine, it would seem it would take next to no, if not actuall no extra complexity, and therefore mantaince costs, and there would be a savings in fuel.
Probebly the reason nobody else ever thought of that are that shay's are small and don't burn much coal to begin with, and that the operators of shays, logging and mining railroads, didn't exactly care about fuel costs.

For some recomended reading, try Brian Hollingsworth's The Illustrated Encyclopida of North American Locomotives (note: tiles are probeby spelled wrong) for american steam development, and diesels as well, and Brian Hollingsworth's and Arthur Cook's Steam Locomotives for passenger steam worldwide. It's interesting seeing the paths of development of steam in the varoius countries. If you wan't to see all sorts of early diesel and electric engines, including some that are rod-driven, look up Modern Locomotives by the same two authers. Of course, both books are long out of print, so start looking at a libary, although The Illustrated Encyclopida of North American Locomotives I found as a google book online a while back, and the others might be as well.
Hoped this helped!
If anyone has any other questions, go ahead and ask.:)
 
I often ponder on the thought of whether it was the right move to phase out steam in favour of other traction .
Did we not perhaps miss out on developing the perfect steam locomotive for hauling passengers and freight in their respective categories.
 
I often ponder on the thought of whether it was the right move to phase out steam in favour of other traction .
Did we not perhaps miss out on developing the perfect steam locomotive for hauling passengers and freight in their respective categories.

There is only one name to look for:

Ing. Livio Dante Porta
->Developer of Kylpor, Lempor, and Lemprex exhaust systems
->Invented Gas Producing Combustion System
->Discovered adhesion-enhancing wheel profile
->Chief Technical Consultant an the ACE 3000 project
->Proposed numerous other steam locomotive designs that would incoporate many new technologies
->Has sytematically proven that by raising a steam locomotive's thermal efficiency to just 14% would put it on par with a diesel, 21% would make it so much better

I have read several other papers by other folks, and they all come to the same conclusion: with enough planning and forsight, we can make steam locos run the country and save money!

For current proposals, David Wardale of the UK has the 5AT on the drawing board, development is currently on hold due to the economy.
 
There is only one name to look for:

Ing. Livio Dante Porta
->Developer of Kylpor, Lempor, and Lemprex exhaust systems
->Invented Gas Producing Combustion System
->Discovered adhesion-enhancing wheel profile
->Chief Technical Consultant an the ACE 3000 project
->Proposed numerous other steam locomotive designs that would incoporate many new technologies
->Has sytematically proven that by raising a steam locomotive's thermal efficiency to just 14% would put it on par with a diesel, 21% would make it so much better

I have read several other papers by other folks, and they all come to the same conclusion: with enough planning and forsight, we can make steam locos run the country and save money!

For current proposals, David Wardale of the UK has the 5AT on the drawing board, development is currently on hold due to the economy.

Thanks for sharing this interesting info, I went agoogling :) here is hoping for the completion of the 5AT and the return of steam.
 
Back
Top