Dependencies License

Victorian

Member
Hi allll
Does anyone know if you would be allowed to release a payware train that uses other people's freeware dependencies, but not including the dependencies in the pack, buyers would have to download the dependencies seperatley.
The dependencies I am thinking of lack a license so I don't know what to do :confused:
Thanks
Victorian
 
You will need to check the config.txt files. Some creators do not permit their assets to be used in payware products (even as dependencies) without their permission, and in certain cases royalties may be required.

Shane
 
Traditionally the Trainz community has been in general very respectful of third party creators rights and in general the absence of a statement that specifically states you can has been taken to mean that you can't. That's only an ethical/moral perspective though. The legal perspective is a can of worms! At least two of the communities amatuer lawyers will be along shortly and in all likelihood will supply three opinions between them....
 
Just contact the authors of those dependencies. If they say "no problem", you are done. If they say "hell no", you can see what the result is of this topic.
 
Traditionally the Trainz community has been in general very respectful of third party creators rights and in general the absence of a statement that specifically states you can has been taken to mean that you can't. That's only an ethical/moral perspective though. The legal perspective is a can of worms! At least two of the communities amatuer lawyers will be along shortly and in all likelihood will supply three opinions between them....

But the same absence of the same statement can also mean that there is NO objection, or they would have stated so. ;)
If I give something (either physical or intellectual), that I wish not to be passed on, I inform the recipient at the
time of giving (i.e. write it in the config.), the general public cannot be presumed to be psychic.
 
The way I see it is if it doesn't specifically mention it in the config file, it's better to ask anyway, especially if it's a user who is not familiar with writing config files.

Shane
 
My licence permits others to modify and publish any of my creations with the request that they give me due acknowledgment as the original creator. However as I firmly believe in sharing freely (if anyone likes something I have made!) I would take a very dim view indeed of ayone profiting financially from what I consider to be a fairly generous attitude.

Ray
 
At least two of the communities amatuer lawyers will be along shortly and in all likelihood will supply three opinions between them....

Yes they most certainly will be.

Short answer to the op's question. If the item / dep is on the DLS then there are no problems as that is covered under the EULA of N3V. If the item / dep is on an external site, then you are required to get permission to include it in you payware route. The difference between them as I see it is that anything on the DLS does not actually get included in the payware pack, it is only referenced and will be downloaded to the users PC. Third party assets have to be included in the payware pack.

Maybe help you decided what you need to do.

Peter
 
Ah sweet old Assumption .... the mother of all mess up's !! (Cleaned up version for family friendly viewing ;) )
 
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Hi allll
Does anyone know if you would be allowed to release a payware train that uses other people's freeware dependencies, but not including the dependencies in the pack, buyers would have to download the dependencies seperatley.
The dependencies I am thinking of lack a license so I don't know what to do :confused:
Thanks
Victorian

According to N3V when you upload anything to the DLS you are permitting its use in payware.

As such it is your responsibility to ensure that all textures etc are correctly licensed for payware. Any requests for content removal from the DLS because of these restrictions will not be accepted.

If you read the forum posts by Windwalkr he explicitly says that anything on the DLS is available to all content creators including payware. Having said that the only practical way to use it is to reference it and pick it up from the DLS.

Be aware that some of my earlier content does not have the textures correctly licensed for payware, they were uploaded before Chris issued his clarification and you run the risk that the copyright owner may issue a notice to have the textures removed from any US server which I understand is where the DLS is located. From a practical point of view this may lead to your customers being slightly displeased. Many of the “free” texture sites license in two ways, one non-commercial which is free, the second is commercial for which a fee is payable and many of the DLS assets use textures from these sites.

So yes you can but be aware that without the consent of the content creators and their assurance that the textures are correctly licensed for payware you may have some difficulties.

Cheerio John
 
My licence permits others to modify and publish any of my creations with the request that they give me due acknowledgment as the original creator. However as I firmly believe in sharing freely (if anyone likes something I have made!) I would take a very dim view indeed of ayone profiting financially from what I consider to be a fairly generous attitude.

Ray

If you have uploaded it to the DLS your license is irrelevant. N3V's license overrides it which is why some of my content is not uploaded to the DLS.

Cheerio John
 
Hi allll
Does anyone know if you would be allowed to release a payware train that uses other people's freeware dependencies, but not including the dependencies in the pack, buyers would have to download the dependencies seperatley.
The dependencies I am thinking of lack a license so I don't know what to do :confused:
Thanks
Victorian

As long as you are not "redistributing" someone else's content, you can "reference" any dependency you like, WITHOUT asking permission.

There may be some contraversy to my comment, but the simple fact of the matter is, you are not doing anything with someone else's content, other than writing it's name in a text file.

One of the reasons Trainz models use dependencies is so that they can easily be changed out to make a whole new asset package...For Example:
-You make a locomotive, it needs trucks/bogies, and engine spec, and sounds;
--You build your own trucks/bogies, you calculate your own physics, but have no way to record your own sounds...
---So, you reference the KUID of an asset on the DLS that has the correct sounds.

You have not modified the sounds, you have not included the sounds with your engine, and you have not made them available for download outside of the DLS.
--You have no obligation to "ask permission" to use a dependency, for freeware or for payware, and there is no legal ruling to prevent you from doing so.
1. You are not making a profit from the dependency.
2. You have not claimed the dependency as your own.
3. You have not violated any generally acceptable "EULA" terms, by referencing it in your Config.txt
4. IF the EULA says it cannot be referenced by a payware product...that is an un-enforcable, and silly, demand...It's like your Firestone saying "you're not allowed to put our tires on a used Ford escort"...can't be enforced.

It is generally expected that you acknowledge who DID make the dependency, and explain where it must be downloaded from, if not the DLS...it would be kind of you to Thank the creator for making it available, but not "required by Law or Rule".
 
This one is a frequent bone of contention. While legally it may be doing nothing wrong, referencing someone else's free work as a short cut to finishing your own for sale, IMHO morally ranks alongside payday loans or those so called "free" tablet apps which suddenly ask for in game purchases to advance any further. It is only unenforceable because no-one (to my knowledge) has brought a case against N3V or a piggybacker - the cost of pursuing this in international law probably being out of all proportion to the legal cost, or the likelihood of getting compensation out of some kid or student.

If you are making something with a view to selling it then you ought to at least be considering acquiring the skill set and ability to do all of the work yourself. Does the 3D modelling software and paint package/textures you are using permit commercial sale of resulting work?

Put the shoe on the other feet, how would you feel if you had spent weeks or months creating bogies, a cab interior or sound set for free then someone else comes along who can't be arsed or hasn't got the skill to make same for their payware wannabee bolts your content on. At best the OP should contact authors of the items and advise of his intentions. An offer to beta test wouldn't go amiss along with a complementary copy of the finished product as an expression of gratitude. Finally, while it's unlikely in the micro-payware world, an offer of royalty payment should the item actually sell well.

Or better still accept your limitations and just release the item as freeware so that all can share and enjoy.
 
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I'll +1 agree on what Vern posted .
There are plenty of wannabe solicitors on here and other forums , Dishing out false info giving folks false hope , yet these wannabe's always run a mile or go very silent when it gets all serious .
One of these days someone will take the bull by the horns and make someone an example of irrespective of the costs or small returns involved !!

Case in point , a couple of months back I was involved in a situation where a reskinner was freely distributing Payware based on an agreement they had fabricated and had claimed to have received from the original Payware author . Needless to say the Payware provider got very serious and threatened court action and you have never seen so many people running about trying to cover their own backsides . The main point of all this was the fact that all these self taught solicitors that go about saying you can do what the hell you want with content where nowhere to be found , Quiet was an understatement , gone to ground and disappeared down their bunkers until it had all blown over .

Mark my words the day is coming that someone gets made an example of and its going to rock this forum to the core .... the sooner the better !!
 
If you have uploaded it to the DLS your license is irrelevant. N3V's license overrides it which is why some of my content is not uploaded to the DLS.

John

I was thinking more of an asset which had been reskinned and then published as payware under the modifier's own name. I fully accept that assets on the DLS are only referenced in a layout/route.

Ray
 
Dave, I'm not too sure what you mean there. If you're talking about the situation involving the incident on Shane's forum, noone was trying to be 'solicitors' or covering their own backsides. I stated that if he had permission, or if he had created the assets himself, he was allowed to upload the files. He provided 'permission', which turned out to be false. I, personally, was excited at the new content, but after learning that the user didn't have permission, quickly cut off all connections with them after they verbally assaulted myself and a few other users, including you and Shane.

Myself and Shane were rushing around trying to sort things out. 'Marty' swore to me that he had permission, even when asking in complete confidence. He was banned in accordance with the forum rules and we spoke no-more of it, noone disappeared.

That is, assuming you were talking about the situation I think you are.

Victorian, general rule of thumb is, if you're not sure, you're better off asking to double check :)

Jack
 
I think if the author has not made release conditions very clear in the config be it free- or payware, it is courtesy to ask him/her nicely. I've had to sort out a lot of 3rd party dependencies for my route recently and find that some "simpler" assets may not have clear contact or license information in the config.

In such a situation simply look for other assets by that same author. Chances are you'll find a more detailed config in a "larger" asset such as an engine, traincar or otherwise complex object.
 
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