Default switch direction - session or route?

[sniper297]

Got tired of having to check all the switches on the mainline to make sure they were actually set for the main, so I used the junction direction tool to set the direction. Saved, ran the session, back to wrong way again.

This time edited via the default session, ran the default session, switch is straight. Back to the test session;

Back to curved again. There's no AI train taking this diverge, they all run straight thru this switch, so when they get to it they have to throw it straight, then it resets to the diverge again after they clear.

Okay. So back to the main session again, edit session, look at switch, switch is straight. Merge session layer into route layer, that oughtta do the trick, save. Back to test session, switch set to diverge. :'(

Okay. So this apparently has the info stored somewhere in the session itself, but where?

Try editing only the test session, set junction direction on one switch, it won't let me save the session, wants to save new route and session.

What is the trick to this? Is it like the environment where you get one shot at the prize per route version, and have to save as new route to make it stick, then create all new sessions from scratch? The info on the switch settings MUST be somewhere in the session, otherwise you wouldn't have a mismatch between the default session and other sessions, so why does it gray out the option to save only the session?

 

[baz66]

Snipe. Don't know if this helps. Your signals look very close to the switches. Could they have something to do with it? Also don't know if the sigs are scripted for special movements but it might be worth looking intio.
baz

 

[sniper297]

Those aren't signals, they're CNR switchstands. Using the regular switch lever instead makes no difference, somewhere the data for which way the switch is thrown at the start of the session is stored, question is where.

 

[Dermmy]

I think he means the red box that looks like the back of a ground sig near 3614. If it is in fact a signal it is too close, and you need another vertex between 3614 and the junction beyond it, the AI won't like two successive junction vertexes. Similarly you need at least one vertex (two will look better) on the crossover between 3614 and 3642. The arrangement you have is quick and easy to build, but it again gives two successive junction vertexes.

Your junction levers need pulled back a bit also. They should be just outside the diverging vertex on the approach side with the signal a fair distance in advance of the lever.

The AI expects to see signal > lever > Diverging vertex as it approaches a junction. I just know you are going to ask the: conventional wisdom/always been that way but never tested/made it up as I went along/ question so: I have been around these forums for a long time and I am cursed with one of those memories which retains almost everything I read. Way back in the good old days the Auran team contributed actively in the forums and questions like this got answered definitively by the folks who knew. Blank wikis and non existent contributions from N3V are a relatively new phenomenon. Signal > Lever > Diverging Vertex came from someone who knew. Where or when or who? You've got me - that's the curse: I remember the text but forget the context. A HUGE treasure trove of knowledge of this sort got binned with the Great '06 Sux' forum Crash/Deletion/whatever it was. Are things the same or different in the Brave New Version of the Sim? You will have to consult the Wiki to find out.

OK - back to the question at hand: Lever 'direction' is saved to the route. I don't believe it is possible to have an alternate junction setting for a specific session, at least it didn't used to be possible. It may be possible in TS10/12 to have alternate lever settings if the diverging track itself (and therefore the lever) are on a specific session layer. You could place a different lever in a different session layer, but I have not played around enough with layers to be sure, but even if it IS possible I don't think it would be worth the mucking about. Trains can be made to run any route through even in a complicated interlocking with proper signal placement and the right AI commands, making lever 'direction' almost irrelevant.

Andy

 

[colourlight]

I got lost lost after the 3rd switch change As Dermmy said set switches in route. I found Derrmmy,s comments very illuminating and I,ll bear them in mind next time the AI has a problem with the route. The spine info may explain why the AI doesn,t seem to recognise a certain point switch on my routes. One to investigate. I like to place my point lever/motor next to the point switch to make it look more authentic

 

[sniper297]

Oh, that.

Yes, that is indeed a double head dwarf signal for the switch, the reason it's so close is the short distance between switches, I got a lot of those. Don't affect the AI, they're perfectly happy to run thru them. What I found is signal - switch - switch - switch - switch - switch - signal is a problem for AI trains, they normally set only the next switch and if that gives them a clear path to the next signal down the line away they go. Complicated junctions with no intervening signals are what screw them up, they stop and just start throwing switches in a random order hoping to get lucky and hit the right combination that reveals the path to the next signal. To fix that problem, single head dwarfs before trailing points, double head dwarfs before facing points, then the AI figures out the combination quickly.

Worst trouble with either of those is not the AI, but for the player trying to set his own path since he don't have navigate via to set it for him, switches too close together result in them huge honking red/green arrows overlapping so you can't tell which switch you're throwing.

That's primarily what this affects, the player trying to run on the mainline and the switch is set by default to diverge into a dead end. The AI has no problem since it sets the switch the way it wants, the player has to slow down or stop to check switches if he wants to stay on the mainline.

Another experiment with this - I took the template session for the AI I had set up, Edit Session and add one new vehicle and driver, set all the switches the way I want, then clicked Save expecting to get the options grayed out and forced into saving as new route and session - the hope was that the AI traffic template would come along so I wouldn't have to clone it. For whatever reason this time it did NOT gray out, so I went ahead and overwrote the existing route and session.

Now that session has all the switches set correctly, try one of the other sessions and they're back to the diverge by default. So. Probably is in the route layer somewhere, but when you create a session the information about the switch settings AT THE TIME OF THE CREATION OF THAT SESSION is stored somewhere in that session.

So the mystery is still an unsolved mystery, but apparently the trick is to double check and make sure all switches are set the way you want before you create any new sessions, because the switch settings will be locked into the new session and any subsequent session cloned from it yea verily unto the seventh generation yet unborn shall ye suffer for the sins of thy fathers before ye. Easiest cure is probably let it go new route and session after setting the switches, don't even bother trying to repair existing sessions, just make new ones since the old ones are somehow forever haunted with the Ghost of Switch Settings Past and the exorcism is more trouble than it's worth.

 

[Azervich]

but for the player trying to set his own path since he don't have navigate via to set it for him, switches too close together result in them huge honking red/green arrows overlapping so you can't tell which switch you're throwing.

Hi Sniper,

In Surveyor session mode there's thing you can add to the session called "Helper Icon Size" or something like that, it lets you set the size of the switches, I put it to 50% as it makes it heaps smaller and when switches are close it makes them easier to see which ones your choosing.

-Aaron

 

[rrfoose]

I have a similar issue on my route - I want trains to pull forward pass a switch, then reverse and back the whole train into the siding. Once the train is stopped, the AI throws the switch to the proper diverge, and as it starts to back up, it throws it back to the main and continues backwards on the path it was just on. What is even more weird, is that it's command was to go a marker in the siding. Yet it runs uncontrolled on the main to nowhere. Odd for an AI train to go somewhere without a command!

 

[sniper297]

Helper Icon Size, Thanks, useful tip. Edit session rules, add rule, select Helper Icon Size, edit. Usual teeny black text on the dark drab dull background that's hard to see, but set the percentage to 50% (low as it will go) and get this;

Looks a lot better, will help when setting a path in 3D view. Don't affect the map view;

So you still can't make tight slip switches if you want to set a path in the 2D map. Still, it's a decent compromise, half the time I need to leave the map to figure out where I am when I get lost anyway, so maybe I can redo this junction to make it look more like the prototype.

At rrfoose, I've seen that sort of thing and it can be cured - edit session rules, edit the driver commands and put a checkmark next to the "Change Direction" command so that's active. Best sequence is Navigate to trackmark, wait 10 seconds (or 20 or 30, whatever you like), change direction, Navigate to trackmark in the spur. When the train changes directions the last car becomes a "virtual locomotive" and the driver is now sitting in that, you can see this in the 2D map. With that in mind make sure you have enough room between markers, between the mainline marker and the switch, and between the spur marker and the end of the track for the whole AI train. Plus a 20 meter fudge factor, remember the switch trigger radius which won't allow throwing the switch if the train is too close to it.

 

[stagecoach]

Switches are set when you choose the direction in the route or after you place them. Why not use invisible signals if you need that many close together, wont spoil the lok when in driver.

 

[sniper297]

Not a big fan of invisible signals, since the player can't see them it's too easy to run an invisible stop aspect and have a cornfield meet with an AI train.

"Switches are set when you choose the direction in the route or after you place them"

I think we all agree on that, the best method is to not be sloppy about it, double check position of all switches before starting to create sessions. The remaining question is if I create a session with the switches positioned one way, then change the position and accidentally hit on the right combination that makes the changes stick in the MASTER session (default session created when the route is created, the one with the same name as the route), the switches will still be set the old way in TEST session (or whatever it's named). Obvious conclusion, the position settings must be stored in TEST session somewhere, if they weren't then TEST would follow the new settings in MASTER instead of insisting on keeping the old settings.

Given that that premise is proven by process of elimination, the switch settings that were set at the time the session was created are stored somewhere in the session, where is that information, can it be changed, if so how?

 

[Dermmy]

Oh, that.

Yes, that is indeed a double head dwarf signal for the switch, the reason it's so close is the short distance between switches, I got a lot of those. Don't affect the AI, they're perfectly happy to run thru them.

Sorry mate, but dead wrong! Not having a bash, but you are in effect posting along the lines of "nothing wrong with what I'm doing, but I have all these problems...".

In the image above above you will get AI issues due to sig and junction placement. For a start an AI train only controls two sigs behind the loco - NOT behind the train, but behind the loco. A train going 3354 > 2624 > 3316 will have released 3354 long before the train is clear. That leaves the switch available to be thrown under the train by another driver headed 3370 > 3354, or even another train following the first will try to dodge around the first train by attempting 3354 > 3370. Either way, at least derailed train, quite possibly hello desktop!

The only goof-proof fix for something like that is to protect the entire interlocking with scripted 08s at either end. You set the default route to favour trains taking the most common path (generally the straight(est) path) and they run through the whole interlocking without pause. Trainz taking paths through diverging junctions will come to a stand at the 08s, but that's OK, in the real world trains are invariably brought to a stand before tricky moves through complex interlockings.

The AI will resolve tricky routes quickly and easily IF you sort out the lever placement, sig placement and successive lever issue. The reason you are seeing the AI 'throw random junctions till it gets lucky' IS a sig and lever issue. And you realy do need to fix the Junction Vertex > Junction Vertex thing...

Andy

 

[sniper297]

Well, I don't know how we went from a discussion about default settings for the player to AI traffic train problems, but I assure you I am having zero problems running the AI over those switches. One test I had AI running both directions and zigzagging from the center track to the outside track, no problems. I can run the player train over any of those switches in any direction, no problems. The other one I was talking about was at the four track over four track interlocking, which was easily solved by adding a few dwarf signals between switches, now they have no hesitation about it.

I'm not "having all these problems" by any stretch, the one and only thing I'm trying to find out is where the data for the default position for the switches is stored after you use the Junction Direction tool to change the switch in surveyor. If it's a single switch a mile away from any other switch the same thing applies, click on it with the junction direction tool, save route or session, that position does not make it into any other existing sessions. Completely unrelated to AI traffic trains.

 

[Dermmy]

Just trying to help with what looks to be a reasonable route wherein the sessions will be spoiled by ordinary track work, but OK -I'm happy to limit discussion to a single issue so:

Which part of the last paragraph in Post #4 is causing confusion?

Andy...

 

[sniper297]

Hee-hee, if it will make you feel better I'll set up a test with AI trains following each other at 1 minute intervals taking different paths thru the puzzle switches, see if I can duplicate the problem with a following train throwing a switch under the one ahead before it clears. Gonna be later, at the moment I'm 35 minutes into a 2 1/2 hour traffic pattern test. In general the AI traffic runs 15-20 minutes apart, but if the player blocks a track for an unreasonable length of time it's possible for them to stack up, so I'll check it out.

Back to the topic (I think it was rrfoose question about his AI problem that got us sidetracked into AI trains, but default switch position has zip point diddly squat to do with AI logic since they set their own switches) I fully understand that the switch position is set when the switch is created, it's possible to use the junction direction tool to change that default direction. What happens after that is the mystery - I create a switch, default position is curved. Since I was daydreaming instead of paying attention to what I'm supposed to be doing, I create a session, and see that the switch is curved. Back to edit route to change switch to straight. Go back to session, switch is curved. Create new session and switch is straight. Trying the philosophy of "always edit route through edit session" I edit the old session, change the switch to straight and save, sometimes that works and sometimes it wants me to save new route and session without giving me the option to overwrite existing route. If it does work and the route is overwritten, for that session and any future session the switch is now straight - but any other session created before that, the switch is still curved.

Obvious conclusion, the information on which way the switches were set by default - in the route, in the route layer - is stored somewhere in the session, if it was not than any existing session before the change would automatically adopt the new setting.

 

[mtldrm38]

One thing I see too many signals which i bet creates a nice head on
with AI s or locked junction s from on coming........
Also I ve noticed the CNR switches Ive came across a problem with them recently especially the yard ones (yellow markers) they would not turn the junction and then I hear these things switching constantly and the switch stands not changing......
So i replaced all those with other switchstands and now the junctions work fine dont know if they where hung up in a layer or what but then I didnt have but the main layer and a session layer which I merged both ways at the start and end of workin in a session....
Point motors would look more realistic looks like CNW/UP main just north of Northwestern station?

 

[sniper297]

Good eye, that is indeed Western Avenue Interlocking.

I'm doing a fictional route called "Chicago Metro" working mostly from memory of how my old 'hood was when I was a kid - while I was growing up steam and streetcars went extinct, the interstate highway system killed the interurbans, passenger traffic, and the peddler freight. Many industries moved to Asia, industry spurs disappeared along with those. The fictional route is a "what should have been" from a railfan's perspective, with growth rather than shrinkage. The pic above was taken in 1974, today some of those tracks are gone but it's still a busy junction. Used to average one movement every 90 seconds during the day. Some videos of the WIP route here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ2JOFknmTo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k4cDDhVAao

And that didn't happen right away, took adding signals and TWS markers ("TWS" = This Way, Stupid) to keep the AI trains from taking an alternate path merely because one was available;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJb_8UywoRA

Current pattern is running flawlessly, the route goes from downtown Madison Street NorthWestern station ("Ogilve center" now) to Bellwood on the C&NW Galena line, Galewood on the Milwaukee, and Cicero on the Burlington with parts of the BRC, IHB, and SOO connecting bits and pieces. Also have the Lake Street Elevated from Harlem to the Loop, before it became the Lake/Dan Ryan it used to run downtown, right turn at Tower 18, counterclockwise around the loop then back to Harlem again. Didn't bother trying to follow the prototype exactly even as it existed back then, it's a fictional route and playability takes precedence over accuracy for me. Currently doing cleanup work, straightening the worst of the ugly bent switches, replacing switchstands and signals that show incorrect aspects, and padding the scenery with more buildings to fill in the empty spaces. Making extensive use of DMDrake's building splines, so the framerates are pretty good for a mostly urban route. Should have a first GEFF (Good Enough For Freeware) version ready for upload in a few more weeks, my SOP is to upload whatever I feel is GEFF and then upload newer versions with improvements later. Version 1 of the MSTS Port Ogden & Northern was uploaded in July 2001, version 11 was uploaded in October 2007 with major differences between the first and last.