Couple of questions

[treblesum81]

Hi All,

Just had a couple of quick questions relating to operations and operating procedures of trains (I'm more of an enthusiast than a fanatic... plus I'm a pilot in my day job, and I can only handle so many detailed rules before I start losing them, so I've got to make sure I keep the important ones).

1) What is a general rule of thumb for how many engines to use for each quantity of full cars, both for passenger and freight (and switching I guess)? I know the real deal has to do with the weight of each car in conjunction with the expected track to cover, etc., but as a general rule, how many cars can you add to a train before you need another loco.

2) When you've got more than one loco, how should they be arraigned and why? i.e. Why are some turned backwards and some forwards? Why do some trains have mid-consist locomotives and others of approximately the same length not? Is there some general rule again for figuring this stuff out?

3) When going from a single track to a dual track (track splitting after a bridge or tunnel or steep grade), is there a recognized side you should be on? i.e. Always left, or always right? Or is there some other way of figuring it out?

4) When passing a speed sign, do you need to slow to the limit before passing the sign or after?

Thanks,
Greg

 

[Euphod]

Welcome to MY dumb world!

1) There is no general rule for a locomotive to rolling stock ratio. You mentioned factors that will affect how a real railroad would decide how much power to add, and it doesn't get any simpler. It does, however get a great deal more complicated in real life, which actually allows us more leeway! For instance, some engines are dead, or headed to a facility for service. They are just along for the ride. Some consists are powered with the knowlege they will be using helper engines to get over grades and such. They can have less engines than seems appropriate. Some engines may not have a piece of equipment like a steam generator or dynamic brakes, and so what is needed is added to the consist. I have seen 80 car trains with 9 engines and 150 car trains with two, and I frequently see 10 car trains with four, one of them a yard switcher.

2) How the engines are arranged can be more dependent on how they were sitting in the yard than any mystical formula. If given the choice, the engineer will probably choose the engine he or she is most comfortable with, or the one that has working air conditioning or heating. All the engines can be in front, some may be added in the middle, and some can be at the rear, the railroads have specific reasons for the arrangements, and most will have to do with length and weight of the consist.

3) If differs by country, and whether it is a passenger rake on a push pull system, or a through freight, but GENERALLY in the US, you stay to the right. Ultimately, it is up to what ever track the dispatcher switches you to.

4) The entire train should slow to the posted limit before passing the sign, and must wait until the entire train has passed the sign before increasing to the posted limit.

Google "Tales from the Krug", and you will run across much interesting information from an engineer's POV in an easily digestible illustrated diary!

 

[R707]

Hi All,

Just had a couple of quick questions relating to operations and operating procedures of trains (I'm more of an enthusiast than a fanatic... plus I'm a pilot in my day job, and I can only handle so many detailed rules before I start losing them, so I've got to make sure I keep the important ones).

1) What is a general rule of thumb for how many engines to use for each quantity of full cars, both for passenger and freight (and switching I guess)? I know the real deal has to do with the weight of each car in conjunction with the expected track to cover, etc., but as a general rule, how many cars can you add to a train before you need another loco.

2) When you've got more than one loco, how should they be arraigned and why? i.e. Why are some turned backwards and some forwards? Why do some trains have mid-consist locomotives and others of approximately the same length not? Is there some general rule again for figuring this stuff out?

3) When going from a single track to a dual track (track splitting after a bridge or tunnel or steep grade), is there a recognized side you should be on? i.e. Always left, or always right? Or is there some other way of figuring it out?

4) When passing a speed sign, do you need to slow to the limit before passing the sign or after?

Thanks,
Greg

Hi Greg,

Euphod wrote a good reply. I might be able to add to it.

1. The needs for how many loco's are hauling a train vary so much. A lot has to do with the terrain traversed. Then there is the needs along the route, such as dropping off loco's etc.. I worked on one railroad many years ago which had the minimum loco necessary to get the train to point "B". This meant going up steep gradients at 10MPH. The railroad didn't care how long it took, they just wanted to save diesel fuel. Then you have the case where it is a very important train, and needs to get to point "B" as fast as possible. Then you will find multiple loco's on the front end. Some railroads have a maximum rule, such as five on the front end. This rule is to make the dynamics in the train consist more stable, and to prevent problems like derailments when empties are near the front of the consist. It happens when using the dynamic brake if used improperly. And too many loco's at the front can cause breakage of couplers through bad handling. I have seen this happen many times with loaded iron ore cars.

2. Diesel Electric locomotives can be arranged in any way to haul a consist. Usually, the first loco is facing short end leading, but again, not always the case. Other loco's are usually arranged in the way they may be needed later in the journey. Many times, the second loco is facing forward like the leading loco. Railroads do this in case the front loco fails. Then there is the case where driver only operation is employed. Then the lead, and usually the second loco are facing forward, or short end leading. no matter how many loco's up to the limit are used, they are all controlled from the leading loco through a 27 core multi-unit, or jumper cable. Mid train helpers are used, and this can change at the discretion of the operating company, to reduce the buff and draft on couplers through the consist. Most couplers can take 250,000 lbs of strain before they are a candidate for breakage.

3. There are a lot of countries which used to stick to either left hand, or right hand running when operating on a double line. This placed the driver furthest from the other running line. In modern times, with most double tracks being signalled for traffic in either direction, it has become more at the discretion of the Train Controller.

4. Euphod is spot on, you must have your train at the speed shown on the speed board, and resume speed after your train has cleared the speed board, or clearance board. Some railroads have speed boards approaching curves, or, as they call them, permanent speed boards. These are placed about 600 metres in advance of the speed board. This is only one railroad's policy. Knowing where these boards are located, is the responsibility of the driver, this is called track or route knowledge. All drivers must be signed off as competent and aware of all conditions when operating their train over that route.

In Trainz, you are the master. You can do anything, but I find it better to try to emulate the running conditions of the route I am modelling.

Hope this helps a little.

Pete :wave:

 

[treblesum81]

Thanks for the info Euphod and R707... very informative. I did know it was a complicated mess already, I just didn't know how truly complicated it is. I guess I'll just keep my number of engines somewhat random for the time being until I can figure out some sort of working model to base it on... i.e. how many engines are required to pull X number of heavy cars up Y grade at Z speed...

Out of curiosity, does Trainz 2009 (or any other version for that matter) model coupler breakage? This may be something to keep in mind in engine placement within a consist.

Thanks again,
Greg

 

[Euphod]

TC does and I think 2009 does as well. I never messed with it, but you have to add a rule to your session I believe. As with anything Trainz, I seem to recall it is not perfect.

You are correct that it is one factor of engine placement, and typically when it is the major consideration then you will find engines mid consist.

Greg the following may answer many of your questions:

http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/hp_te.htm

 

[rweber95]

Al Krug's discussion of Tractive Effort and HP at http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/hp_te.htm explains in pretty simple terms how a RR decides what kind and how many locos are required for a given train and route.

Bob

 

[R707]

Thanks for the info Euphod and R707... very informative. I did know it was a complicated mess already, I just didn't know how truly complicated it is. I guess I'll just keep my number of engines somewhat random for the time being until I can figure out some sort of working model to base it on... i.e. how many engines are required to pull X number of heavy cars up Y grade at Z speed...

Out of curiosity, does Trainz 2009 (or any other version for that matter) model coupler breakage? This may be something to keep in mind in engine placement within a consist.

Thanks again,
Greg

Hi again Greg,

It's only as complicated as you wish to make it. As I, and Euphod have alluded to, what you do is really up to how real railroads run their business. What I have tried to do, in a short answer, was to explain very briefly, what happens in the real world.

Greg, just go with whatever you want. Try hauling a train, say about 2,000 tons on your route. You can always use someone elses route, Have a look at the work done by Phil Skene. His Port Ogden & Northern is a fine example of good planning.

If, when running a train, it struggles to get up the gradient, then you know you need extra motive power. It's really as simple as that. Just get involved in the route. Remember, you are the creator of how your empire runs.

It's a bit of a waste in any form of train running, to head up the front with five SD70's. Try an F7A, or maybe two. What I do is to use a limited amout of motive power, and have banker engines placed at the commencement of a steep gradient. This is used a lot in the real railroads. After helping your train to the top of the gradient, they cut off and return to the base. This saves motive power, and maximises the extra loco's, which can be ready to help another train.

You can always use a good guide for trains going up steep gradients. Most Diesel Electric Locomotives rate the maximum output of the going up a gradient at 11MPH. This speed will keep the loco's working at their maximum horsepower, and prevent them from going into the red.

Remember, Diesel Electric Locomotives output their maximum horsepower at lower speeds. They are very slow to respond to the driver wanting to increase speed from say 60MPH to 70MPH. It takes a long time in real life to increase speed rapidly.

Steam Locomotives are the opposite, they output their maximum potential at higher speeds. I have run many passenger trains using steam power, and the time taken to get from, say 50MPH to 70MPH, is done in great style. This is why many steam operators years ago had helpers to get them up to speed.

The power of expanding steam is one of the most dynamic forces that we know of. And, it is just fun too.

You can monitor coupler tension. There is software in Trainz to view this in your running sessions. I am sure that Euphod, or someone can point you in the right direction.

Remember Greg, the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. So keep asking. I envy you being a pilot. That is an occupation I would loved to have followed. But, I have always wanted to operate trains.

Imerse yourself in your empire, and share your experiences with us. Most of the members here are only too willing to help in any way they can.

In my daytime job, I am a Driver Trainer, and I am always willing to help anyone needing assistance. The real satisfaction for me is the knowledge that I am passing on something of what I have learnt over the years. If I don't do this, then what I have learnt is really lost.

Pete :wave:

 

[treblesum81]

After having a chance to read through that HP vs. TE paper, I have a headache. Its amazing how complicated driving a motor with a couple of trailers down a set of fixed rails can be... At least in aviation we get all sorts of charts and tables to make things go super quick. I'm also a little surprised that bigger isn't always better when dealing with these super-heavy trains, and, again, I've gotten a headache trying to reconstitute my consists with the "appropriate" machinery. I know that ultimately, I get to choose what I want to do with them, but where's the fun in making arbitrary decisions about what to put into a train... Trainz offers realism, but only if we make use of it does it affect what we get out of the game...

I like the idea of basing the pulling power off of the max load / gradient / mph figure, as it will ensure I don't run out of the proverbial steam before reaching the top of the hill. This is especially important since a good portion of layouts that I've seen so far don't have any "banker" sidings to put "banker" engines near their steep grades. This brings up a question... how long does a steep(er) grade need to be before a railroad will foot the bill for running the extra engine(s) up and down? I've never seen a "banker" engine anywhere around where I live and I live in Colorado, so I'm guessing they really need to push some massive trains over some steep grades before the need for a helper outweighs the need for more profit. That being said, most of the traffic that goes through the mountains these days is passenger trains, which I understand to be much lighter and easier to keep moving.

Which again brings up another question I've been stewing on for a while now... Its no secret that passenger trains are few and far between across most of the united states, but they do exist. Is Amtrak the only real carrier in the US these days, or are there others? If so, what are their names, as I'd really like to play around with some PAX runs, but I can't seem to find much information about what trains go where (which to use with each layout), and what those trains consist of... I know there was a time not too long ago that passenger trains used all different engines from the freight traffic, but I've not seen an Amtrak train in probably 15 years, so I'm not sure if that holds true anymore. Do they use the same Dash-9's and SD90's of the high(er) speed freight lines, or do they have their own engines still, and where are they in Trainz?

Thanks,
Greg

PS: I'd really like to know where I can find that coupler monitor software if you could point me to it...

 

[treblesum81]

As an added thought to the Amtrak question, I've only been able to find F7A/B engines for Amtrak, that work at least. There are several P4x models on the DLS, but all are missing assets I can't find and fear to be payware... any advice?

Thanks,
Greg

 

[rweber95]

Some Amtrak stuff here http://www.protrainz.com/download.htm

Bob

 

[Euphod]

Greg, there are many Amtrak engines on the DLS, the F40 is the most used by the company in recent history. It would be worth downloading it and posting the kuids you can't find here, and we will help then.

Amtrak is the only show if you are modeling current day time frames. In the past most of the class 1 railroads had a passenger service. You could still run a commuter service today, of which Chicago Metra is one.

 

[ex-railwayman]

Hello Greg,

As a Brit, and having only gained my small amount of knowledge of North American railroads through Trainz and the lovely people on this forum, I now know that the majority of diesel locos "across the pond" only have a cab at one end of the locomotive for the engineer to sit in, subsequently, you need to have 2 locos coupled back to back together, to enable them to run backwards and forwards without the need for a turntable as if only 1 locomotive was used. In Britain nearly all our diesel and electric locomotives were built with a cab at each end, which alleviates the faffing about turning locos around at the end of the line, our loco drivers just walk from one cab to another in seconds which saves time and effort.
I've always wanted to ask a North American railroad fan, why they only build locos with one cab, is it a financial decision, or operational, or what ??

May I also suggest you look on youtube Greg at some of the railroad videos that have been posted in the last few years, some of the American and Canadian ones are absolutely brilliant, it's interesting to see the different motive power used to run the huge freight trains in the various parts of your country. A 2,000 ton coal train may only need 3 locos to haul it on a flat run across the Arizona desert, but, say in Colorado with all those mountains you may need 6 locos to pull the same weight. Some of the videos may give you some ideas and thoughts.....If not, the scenery on some of them is just wonderful anyway and to hear the roar of the engines as they speed past is superb.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[Euphod]

I now know that the majority of diesel locos "across the pond" only have a cab at one end of the locomotive for the engineer to sit in, subsequently, you need to have 2 locos coupled back to back together, to enable them to run backwards and forwards without the need for a turntable as if only 1 locomotive was used.

Space. We have more! Most of the freight operations were designed as "run through", such as power plants and grain elevator loops just because we can! The system established utilizing large classification yards and then local trains to supply smaller customers is another reason. On a mile long freight having two loco's coupled back to back would yield no advantage over the engineer remaining in the first loco and reversing. Modern commuter railroads use cab cars at the end of a push pull passenger rake that have controls that can run the locomotive in reverse, just like the "one engine at each end" of the UK. Cost was the primary factor in keeping one set of controls in the locomotive, although some switchers did have dual controls.

 

[treblesum81]

Greg, there are many Amtrak engines on the DLS, the F40 is the most used by the company in recent history. It would be worth downloading it and posting the kuids you can't find here, and we will help then.

Amtrak is the only show if you are modeling current day time frames. In the past most of the class 1 railroads had a passenger service. You could still run a commuter service today, of which Chicago Metra is one.

I'll keep that in mind... for some reason I thought there were other pax outfits in the US, or at least charter outfits. I did check on the Amtrak fleet makeup though and found that the F40's are off the line as of 2003, with only a few turned into "cabbage cars" (who comes up with these names? ). The P42DC is the current primary engine of the company. So I'm wondering if there is a version of this that doesn't come from protrainz.com, as I really think that their freeware versions are only reskins and you can't use them without buying the payware...

Greg

 

[ex-railwayman]

Space. We have more! Most of the freight operations were designed as "run through", such as power plants and grain elevator loops just because we can! The system established utilizing large classification yards and then local trains to supply smaller customers is another reason. On a mile long freight having two loco's coupled back to back would yield no advantage over the engineer remaining in the first loco and reversing. Modern commuter railroads use cab cars at the end of a push pull passenger rake that have controls that can run the locomotive in reverse, just like the "one engine at each end" of the UK. Cost was the primary factor in keeping one set of controls in the locomotive, although some switchers did have dual controls.

Hmmm, I think I understand the bit you wrote, that I've highlighted, but, if a single locomotive worked a long freight to a big yard, uncoupled from his consist and then had to work another freight in the opposite direction for a couple of hundred miles he would have to turn round, wouldn't he?? I thought that that was the main reason for running 2 locos back to back to alleviate turning round, as I assumed that there are not many turntables in operation these days, or, maybe there are and I haven't seen them in videos.
I presumed that cost would be the main reason for only having one cab, but, to have 2 locos coupled together means twice as much money for fuel and wear and tear and running costs, etc, surely, it would have been cheaper over the lifespan of a freight locomotive to have a cab at both ends.....

Thanks for the response anyway young man.....

Cheerz. ex.

 

[Euphod]

I did check on the Amtrak fleet makeup though and found that the F40's are off the line as of 2003, with only a few turned into "cabbage cars" (who comes up with these names? ). The P42DC is the current primary engine of the company. Greg

Yeah, my recent history folder currently begins in 1970 and goes back further from there! I may catch up to 2003 before I die!

Ex; I understand your confusion, and I have to state that I don't really know! A long freight that terminates in a classification yard may have the power cut off and serviced, may continue down the line with another consist, may get turned around...I don't know if there is a way to find out for certain!

 

[treblesum81]

Yeah, my recent history folder currently begins in 1970 and goes back further from there! I may catch up to 2003 before I die!

LOL, there's just so much of it to keep track of...

 

[ex-railwayman]

Ex; I understand your confusion, and I have to state that I don't really know! A long freight that terminates in a classification yard may have the power cut off and serviced, may continue down the line with another consist, may get turned around...I don't know if there is a way to find out for certain!

No probs Ed, you've been extremely helpful anyway, thanks for your time.....

Cheerz. ex.