Campaign to retain full DLS for TRS2004/06

[obo]

Whatever the merits or pros and cons of the discussion, I wish people would stop putting up strawmen. No one but Auran knows the $ cost or space required to maintain old stuff. Zec has already said that there is a real programming cost involved. If you don't want to believe him or think that it is irrelevant, that's your prerogative.

First, there is no need to be insulting. As an aside, "strawman" means to argue against a position that nobody is holding, which isn't what you are accusing me of doing here.

Second, while nobody but Auran knows the exact cost of keeping the old stuff around, anyone with a technical background and internet access can make a pretty good educated guess - commercial web storage isn't exactly an obscure corner of the industry. If the Trainz franchise continues for even a few more years the size of new content will quickly dwarf the old (due to more complex models, larger textures, etc.) rendering the costs of keeping the latter around relatively unimportant.

Finally, regarding programming costs, Zec is talking about maintaining access for the downloaders in old versions, not just keeping content around, which is what I'm talking about. On the link you provided he indicates that they will try not to remove old content but stops short of saying it won't happen.

Regards,

Rob.

 

[johnwhelan]

Whatever the merits or pros and cons of the discussion, I wish people would stop putting up strawmen. No one but Auran knows the $ cost or space required to maintain old stuff. Zec has already said that there is a real programming cost involved. If you don't want to believe him or think that it is irrelevant, that's your prerogative.

I think the programming costs of supporting the older formats etc should not be under estimated. The simpler we can make the environment the more robust it becomes. One of the benefits of cleaning up for Y2K is we cleared out a lot of junk.

Cheerio John

 

[martinvk]

First, there is no need to be insulting. As an aside, "strawman" means to argue against a position that nobody is holding, which isn't what you are accusing me of doing here. ...

...

Rob.

No insult intended, I apologize.
Oops, wrong terminology on my part. I was thinking of "begging the question" in the classic sense.

 

[obo]

No insult intended...

Acknowledged. You're a gentleman. Back to Trainz.

Regards,

Rob.

 

[RussellRFR]

Support for 04 and 06

Hi guys
I am not a professional route builder, but enjoy building routes. I have found 2006 has the most realistic trees, buildings etc. And a lot of built in content. This being the case, if I put my route out for people to use there is no problems running it as every one has the same stuff.
I have moved my stuff up to 2010 but so much stuff is missing or doesn't
look right. I will stay with 06 if there are enough other people working with it.
RussellRFR :wave:

 

[marlonza]

Reality is, people will naturally follow the path of least resistance (and the one of freshest age). I have seen this with alot of other sims I have been following religiously. People swore by msfs2004 for years after fsx was born, and even while fsx is now, still, a hardware hog, everyones moving to it, and content creators are too. I love 2006, got the hang of it in the last week, but ive bought 2010EE and im installing it as we speak, even with this thread and all the arguments I read. And R350 didn't kill me.
But i suppose I can understand your dilemma, ive been there. Just be fair guys. They(auran, n3v whatever) could be a jack of all trades, and a master of none, by holding support for old versions, or become a master, at one, benefitting us all.

 

[johnwhelan]

Hi guys
I am not a professional route builder, but enjoy building routes. I have found 2006 has the most realistic trees, buildings etc. And a lot of built in content. This being the case, if I put my route out for people to use there is no problems running it as every one has the same stuff.
I have moved my stuff up to 2010 but so much stuff is missing or doesn't
look right. I will stay with 06 if there are enough other people working with it.
RussellRFR :wave:

TC3 is the best pre TS2009/10 game engine but needs TRS2096 content added to it.

Cheerio John

 

[IsambardKingdomBrunel]

2096....................?????????????????????

 

[happyj]

John

I don't have TC3. but I have TC 1&2 and find it the best of all so far . It loads fast (even with 16 GB of content) gives good frame rates (equal and often better than I ever got with TS 2009 or 2010), all without the hassle of trying to get TS 2009 or 2010 patched and working.

I have installed all the built-in assets from TRS 2006 which gives access to all items on the DLS. So far have been unable to transfer assets from TRS 2004'

 

[happyj]

Much has been said about the merits of vatious editions of Trainz, but little has been said about the underlying issue; cash flow for Auran or N3V or whoever is runing things.

In my opinion Auran are already on a slippery slope. They have elected to cater to the hi techie crowd leaving the rest of us who want to enjoy a relaxing hobby in a user friendly environment to fend for ourselves.

I have often wondered what would happen if the powers that be realised that Trainz is no longer just a Railroad Sim, but is a World Class Transportation Simulator and much more.

Thanks to many innovative third party creators we can: roam the country lanes and dirt roads in the horse and buggy era; or travel the highway, byways or even superhighways of the modern world, in vaiouis trucks and motor vehicles; sail the oceans, up the rivers and canals, and across the many lakes in boats or steamships; then fly over the whole kaboodle in planes or helicopters. Try all that in any other simulator or game such as Railroad Tycoon, Sim -City etc.

What would result if say Trainz Classics were reworked and repackaged as a World Class Transportation Simulator, or more glitzy title with the ability to share the DLS. Auran could develop a broader market base aimed at users with average computers who would need many of the assets from earlier editions of Trainz, Would not the need to change the DLS be redundant.

Cheers

 

[amigacooke]

I have often wondered what would happen if the powers that be realised that Trainz is no longer just a Railroad Sim, but is a World Class Transportation Simulator and much more.

Thanks to many innovative third party creators we can: roam the country lanes and dirt roads in the horse and buggy era; or travel the highway, byways or even superhighways of the modern world, in vaiouis trucks and motor vehicles; sail the oceans, up the rivers and canals, and across the many lakes in boats or steamships; then fly over the whole kaboodle in planes or helicopters. Try all that in any other simulator or game such as Railroad Tycoon, Sim -City etc.

While some very clever things have been done, as far as I am aware, everything still runs on a track of some kind or other. Therefore the simulation of types of transport other than trains is pretty basic.

 

[Barry]

Much has been said about the merits of vatious editions of Trainz, but little has been said about the underlying issue; cash flow for Auran or N3V or whoever is runing things.

In my opinion Auran are already on a slippery slope. They have elected to cater to the hi techie crowd leaving the rest of us who want to enjoy a relaxing hobby in a user friendly environment to fend for ourselves.

I have often wondered what would happen if the powers that be realised that Trainz is no longer just a Railroad Sim, but is a World Class Transportation Simulator and much more.

Thanks to many innovative third party creators we can: roam the country lanes and dirt roads in the horse and buggy era; or travel the highway, byways or even superhighways of the modern world, in vaiouis trucks and motor vehicles; sail the oceans, up the rivers and canals, and across the many lakes in boats or steamships; then fly over the whole kaboodle in planes or helicopters. Try all that in any other simulator or game such as Railroad Tycoon, Sim -City etc.

What would result if say Trainz Classics were reworked and repackaged as a World Class Transportation Simulator, or more glitzy title with the ability to share the DLS. Auran could develop a broader market base aimed at users with average computers who would need many of the assets from earlier editions of Trainz, Would not the need to change the DLS be redundant.

Cheers

Excellent. Certainly tried my best over the years with canals, drivable boats and stiff legged horses, and miles of docks, all on the DS, but the Trainz format has now passed me by. But as I have so often been told "this is a train simulator". It is, but has a scenery designer suited for many modes of transport. Again the standard reply is times move on, and this and that is expected. However so does my age, and no, much of the past is very viable, whether in format for content or eras.. Shadows are NOT required or necessary on every item. Bump and normal mapping are NOT essential. Essential perhaps for close up of engines, but Trainz could have a much wider world of followers if it wanted, possibly many more 100s of thousands.

As regards running on tracks at present I have boats running on invisible tracks in the Blender Game Engine. Not visible tracks as such, just animations, but they can run for hours stop and start at quays remaining there for many minutes, etc all as part of the animation, so there are many ways Trainz as a transport sim offshoot could be programmed.
Some food for thought for the powers that be.

However as I do not see any suitable alternatives, I will stick with the Blender Game Engine, as able to make strm2 routes up to about 12 miles or more as one mesh. Canals, moving boats, animations or whatever.


Barry

 

[IsambardKingdomBrunel]

but Trainz could have a much wider world of followers if it wanted., possibly many more 100s of thousands.

Barry

Trainz will never entice the MSTS followers in any large numbers, or the RailFail zealots.

Auran shot themselves in the foot many years ago, marketing Trainz as a "Model Railroad on your PC".

That stigma has stuck and is very noticeable even 8+ years later, on any railsim forum that caters for the other sims.

Most of them are too blinkered to even give Trainz a fair try.

So there is not much hope of many of them looking into Trainz, as a wider transport sim.

The RW crowd are wetting themselves now because rear tail lights on consists have been introduced. Plus opening doors on static wagons.

How long have we had both in Trainz and with more flexibility.

IKB.

 

[Ferngren]

TC3 is the best pre TS2009/10 game engine but needs TRS2096 content added to it.

Cheerio John

So sorry, but I have to disagree.

The physics around engines and traincars in TC3 are way of the scale. Rolling-resistance of cars is far to high, especially when loaded and going through points, you'll need some 2,5 times the kiloNewton of tractive effort as IRL. TRS2006 calculates all this very close to reality.

Sound was somewhat busted in 2006 with the SP1. Still in TC3 I can hear coal being filled into cars right up my ear, wherever I am on the map - sounds cheap - but I do like the sounds going over points and through curves.

Besides, I get far better fps in TRS2006 than in TC3, on the exact same route, same performance-settings and hardware etc. Both in Vista and XP, and Vista runs both editions some 30% faster than XP. So Vista and TRS2006 is a very good combination. It'll be interesting to see the result in Windows 7...

Now dear John, since you're so far ahead of us all, would you mind sharing some of that TRS2096 content ??? I belive that's what my TC3 need...

 

[johnwhelan]

So sorry, but I have to disagree.

The physics around engines and traincars in TC3 are way of the scale. Rolling-resistance of cars is far to high, especially when loaded and going through points, you'll need some 2,5 times the kiloNewton of tractive effort as IRL. TRS2006 calculates all this very close to reality.

Sound was somewhat busted in 2006 with the SP1. Still in TC3 I can hear coal being filled into cars right up my ear, wherever I am on the map - sounds cheap - but I do like the sounds going over points and through curves.

Besides, I get far better fps in TRS2006 than in TC3, on the exact same route, same performance-settings and hardware etc. Both in Vista and XP, and Vista runs both editions some 30% faster than XP. So Vista and TRS2006 is a very good combination. It'll be interesting to see the result in Windows 7...

Now dear John, since you're so far ahead of us all, would you mind sharing some of that TRS2096 content ??? I belive that's what my TC3 need...

For UK stock Stovepipe has been doing some new engine specs for wagons which are a bit closer to reality. TRS2096 is from my keyboard, it senses where my fingers are as opposed to having to press a key, and some times it decides my fingers are closer to one key than the other.

Each version has strong points and weak points, TC3 at least had the steam loco side sorted out and my preference is for steam. It has a little more stability for scripts and better error checking but to be honest we've been seeing a few oddites in scripts even with TS2010 during some recent beta testing of wagons. One wagon worked fine on my machine but not on a beta testers. Eventually he put it on a layout by itself and it worked correctly. TRS2006 / TC3 performance to me isn't a major concern if you want to run the per TS2009/10 versions you accept you need to spend more on hardware to get sufficient performance.

Cheerio John

 

[sparky15]

IKB,
Exactly. But, don't forget another chief complaint about Trainz, dependency hunts and constant errors. Trainz itself perpetuates all these stigmas in every new release. Every version I have comes with having to sit down and fix the same content over and over just to achieve the same end result. Something that doesn't go unnoticed by users of other sims.

MSTS 2 became vapor ware and RW is struggling at best. Even old TRS2004 had everything beat as far as usability and functionality. Yet, here we are with 2010 and still playing content games with stuff that has been on the DLS for years. I bought 09, sat down for a weekend, imported everything, fixed all the errors and ended up no better than I was with 04/06 or TC. Worse off if you factor in having to give up most of the foliage I prefer to use.

I have MSTS, it shares about equal time with Trainz for me. The route editor is a bear to use on a good day but it is hard to beat the way trains operate in it, even with the 2D cabs. I also have and use RS occasionally. I really like the graphics but really appreciate the track laying tools, especially being able to lay proper junctions and curves with the ability to select multiple tracks while laying them, up to 40 if I remember correctly. The "gizmo" is great when placing scenery items, giving full aspect control over items. All of which Trainz still can't do. If RW ever gets a handle on the AI, look out.

With all the things Auran could have done they continue to center on how Trainz runs older content. Every release comes with a few nice upgrades but more error checking to milk Jet out. Leave the content alone. They made EXCELLENT changes to the signaling, why not carry on in that direction. How about proper junctions and proper track laying tools, or more control over scenery item placement? That alone would attract quite a few. Have a peek at the physics in MSTS. THAT would get a lot of attention from the other sim crowd.

They have done some great things in TS2010. Until they do something besides play games with content, they will always carry that monicker they have. From my perspective they are even competing with themselves a bit at the moment, they can't lure me away from one of their earlier products. Give me some of what I mentioned above and I'll snap a copy up in a heartbeat.

Dave......

 

[stovepipe]

Exactly. But, don't forget another chief complaint about Trainz, dependency hunts and constant errors.

Trainz isn't unique in this respect - MSTS can certainly give you the run-round finding content and throw up errors, as can RS & RW it seems. The UK Train Sim forum is witness to that. At least with MSTS the community CDs went a long way to solving content problems. Hopefully the reincarnation of TARL will bring some benefits here for Trainz.

I have MSTS, it shares about equal time with Trainz for me. The route editor is a bear to use on a good day but it is hard to beat the way trains operate in it, even with the 2D cabs. I also have and use RS occasionally. I really like the graphics but really appreciate the track laying tools, especially being able to lay proper junctions and curves with the ability to select multiple tracks while laying them, up to 40 if I remember correctly. The "gizmo" is great when placing scenery items, giving full aspect control over items. All of which Trainz still can't do. If RW ever gets a handle on the AI, look out.

Route creation in Trainz is a darn sight easier than either MSTS and RS/RW, surely that is an undisputable fact? Yes there could be refinements in Surveyor - but I'm not sure what advantage rolling a building or tree is apart from to make it not vertical, when it should be....

With all the things Auran could have done they continue to center on how Trainz runs older content.

Er really? The new versions have added features for content which hasn't been widely taken advantage of as yet. There are tools to replace the old content with new that works better. The game engine can display higher quality textures for the same hardware. We just don't have the content yet.

Every release comes with a few nice upgrades but more error checking to milk Jet out. Leave the content alone.

I'm confused, do you want progress or not?

They made EXCELLENT changes to the signaling, why not carry on in that direction. How about proper junctions and proper track laying tools, or more control over scenery item placement? That alone would attract quite a few. Have a peek at the physics in MSTS. THAT would get a lot of attention from the other sim crowd.

The signalling is excellent now. There are proper junctions available for Trainz if you want them. I agree they should be default options by now though. Overall it seems to me we are moving towards greater realism.

Yes the physics in MSTS were well advanced for its day - however there are several bugs in the code - the locomotive adhesion increases with train weight for example - bit of a bad one there.:hehe: Let's not go there with RS/RW, which repeats the same bug and doesn't even model wheelslip. Pretty, pretty but not much else there I'm afraid. (actually not that pretty on my PC, though TS2009 runs just fine.)

I'm actually reasonably happy with the physics available in Trainz now, it at least follows the laws of phsyics. The excellent steam physics could be refined further - dampers and cylinder cocks would be nice.

Yes all the sims have their plusses and minuses, but Trainz still has the most positives for my money. What really counts for me though is the sheer freedom and flexibility of what you can do in Trainz, the others feel like wearing a straightjacket.

regards
Charles

 

[NikkiA]

Trainz isn't unique in this respect - MSTS can certainly give you the run-round finding content and throw up errors, as can RS & RW it seems. The UK Train Sim forum is witness to that. At least with MSTS the community CDs went a long way to solving content problems. Hopefully the reincarnation of TARL will bring some benefits here for Trainz.

Indeed, to the point where Route_Riter and RW_Tools are practically necessary tools to be able to run MSTS and RW (respectively). 'Unable to find Shape file blargle.s' and 'Something bad happened' (cue crash to desktop) are positively useless at helping track down missing assets

 

[stovepipe]

The physics around engines and traincars in TC3 are way of the scale. Rolling-resistance of cars is far to high, especially when loaded and going through points, you'll need some 2,5 times the kiloNewton of tractive effort as IRL. TRS2006 calculates all this very close to reality.

The default enginespec for wagons in Trainz is totally wrong for most items of rolling stock. In fact it hasn't changed from TRS2004 to TS2010 as far as I know. I have written some replacements for UK rolling stock - I welcome any feedback if you use them.

The curve resistance was wrong for TC3 when first released but was solved/made better in the service pack - do you have it installed?

regards
Charles

 

[leeferr]

...Er really? The new versions have added features for content which hasn't been widely taken advantage of as yet. There are tools to replace the old content with new that works better. The game engine can display higher quality textures for the same hardware. We just don't have the content yet....

Recognizing the fact that I'll probably get flamed again, I'm going to risk a comment here. I really hope that TS2010 turns out to be the great sim that so many here are expousing, but I wouldn't expect any great influx of content utilizing the new capabilities of TS2010. I haven't seen any big push to create to the new standards except by a handful of creators.

I'm all for progress, but what I loved so much about this sim was the simplicity involved for the average Joe like myself (or Josephine) to be able to create and get something 'in-game'. I believe that the average creator will gradually fade away and all we'll be left with are the creators that are better than your average bear at understanding computers and their complexities. This is probably what many here want, but I think that in the long run, quality may increase, but quantity will seriously decrease.

Back to the OP's purpose in this thread, I'm all for his goal, but honestly, I've come to realize in this thread that it's a failing cause. I truely do hope that I'm wrong, but only time will tell on that. No amount of debate on these forums will change what time will prove.

Mike:wave: