"Built in" vs content creators licensing

[normhart]

I stumbled upon this problem while attempting to restore some of prowler901's and slugsmasher's content to TS12SP1 for my own use. I was looking at a collection of slugsmasher's rolling stock and discovered that many were either not showing up or showing up without bogies. Since I had all of them working quite nicely in 49922 I started investigating the bogey problem. "dc_bogey_24" <kuid2:86661:50003:1>. A quick peek showed me that it was using PMs so that was an easy fix... I thought. Then I discovered I could not save the changes because it was "Built In". OK I didn't think that made much sense since the bogey was readily available on slugsmasher's site http://www.steammachine.com/slugsmasher/ but I could clone the bogies and fix the clone and then modify the rolling stock to use my clone. No! I couldn't do that either because the clone was "Built In" too. Finally I ended up going back to 49922, cloning the bogey, exporting it, importing it into SP1, and modifying the rolling stock to get a working railcar.

Then I realized, wait a second doesn't slugsmasher's licensing statement allow modification for personal use? Yes, yes it does...

"Released for public consumption with only a request that you use my name if you release content with my textures provided with these items."

A quick check of another "Built In" asset, this time by elvenor, shows that although his licensing statement says "The user may modify this object for his/her own use in any way." the

privileges
{
is-payware-content 1
}

prohibits the content creators wishes from being enacted.

It doesn't seem right to me. (not to mention crippling my efforts to have fun with this fine old time stuff)

 

[paulhobbs]

It doesn't matter what is in the license, the assets are covered by the DLS upload agreement which allows N3V to do this.

Paul

 

[normhart]

It doesn't matter what is in the license, the assets are covered by the DLS upload agreement which allows N3V to do this.

Paul

But if the asset is freely available elsewhere what is the point? At best restricting assets that a creator wants to have used by other people means that each content creator will have to seriously consider to whether he want to offer anything for DLS upload that might become "Built In". I certainly wouldn't want something I made become unusable as some of slugsmasher's stuff is now. There are many content creators that love sharing their stuff and encourage modifications. There are several boxcars made by others that are based on slugsmasher's trucks that are now unusable. How is that going to play out if someone they don't know decides to include it in some route that N3V decides is good enough to become part of a release? Are they all going to accept that loss of control? Are they going to decide never, ever to submit anything to the DLS? Can they somehow designate their content as being freeware forever? Edit: and why would I buy a game that, at any time, could render my own creations or creations I've played with for years unusable?

 

[clam1952]

This was done to death when SP1 was released.

 

[normhart]

I guess I missed that time... I got all excited by the up coming tane release and forgot all the baggage that will be coming with it.

Oh well, just another reason to quit trainz, I likely won't survive my next operation anyway.

 

[ZecMurphy]

Good Morning Normhart
This is, unfortunately, a side effect of the asset being included as built-in or DLC content in TS12 SP1. My recommendation would be to download the 'cdp' of the asset in question, and try installing it over the top, or into an earlier version of Trainz. Then increase the revision number, and install that to 'obsolete' the built-in/DLC version.

We have made many improvements to the DRM system in T:ANE, which includes allowing us to differentiate freeware content and payware content. Payware is shown as 'payware' in Content Manager, whilst freeware now shows as 'built-in'. Please note, textures are still in '.texture' format. However, installing a 'cdp' version of these assets should allow you to overwrite it (not tested it here though).

Regards

 

[beckster181]

We have made many improvements to the DRM system in T:ANE, which includes allowing us to differentiate freeware content and payware content. Payware is shown as 'payware' in Content Manager, whilst freeware now shows as 'built-in'. Please note, textures are still in '.texture' format.

got the reason for payware to show as payware built in as built in 3rd party as 3rd party but free ware as built in? sounds like trying to stop it being freeware not so hard to show as freeware or DLS content since it will show if it is on the DLS to start my big bug is that it wont download stuff it says is available for download but obsolete when there isnt a later version for it or the later version wont work

 

[JCitron]

What concerns me about this is having an update to DRM-controlled assets which are also dependencies in non-DRM assets. The things is these dependencies in the non-DRM assets were once freely available but are now locked and can't be updated or fixed. This then causes all kinds of broken items or missing dependencies until the DRM-controlled asset is repaired.

How would I go about this?

Instead of marking everything included in a payware-route or asset as DRM-controlled, I would only protect the actual asset that uses these parts. In other words, we download a DRM payware route such as the Murchison 2. Murchison 2 contains a lot of what were considered freeware stuff from the DLS at one time, but is now locked. Instead of applying the *.* to everything associated with Murchison 2 route, I would only lock the route its self and any specific custom content the author specifies as being DRM-payware.

This would allow us to update content should there be an issue and not get stuck with the payware issue we have now.

I hope I explained this right...

John

 

[ZecMurphy]

Apologies, that was referring specifically to built-in content that is freeware sourced (mainly the DLS). Any 3rd party content will show up as 'installed from DLS', 'modified' (if installed from 3rd party website cdp's or local folders), or 'available for download'. You may also see 'available for download, obsolete' where an update is available for an asset (this update may be built-in, or may be available for download).

The reason for content becoming 'built-in' is due, in part, to the textures being only included as '.texture' files (so as to reduce the total size of T:ANE). The content is also contained in the built-in content 'packages', so as to be able to be distributed with the software.

EDIT: John, as per my previous reply, this is essentially the case in T:ANE (as noted in my previous reply!). The only difference is that we do not include the 'source' textures with the built-in assets. This provides a substantial saving in filesize... To give an example, my 'VR DD Class T2 Can Red W BG' asset is 81.5MB for the 'source' version, whilst the version included with T:ANE is 31.5MB. This is entirely due to it only having the '.texture' format textures in it. If we included the 'source' textures, that asset would actually be approximately 106.4MB, since both the 'source' and '.texture' format textures would be included. On the hard drive, this isn't so much an issue. However it would substantially increase the size of the installer.

As we have always outlined, the original asset is still available on the DLS, and as I noted above, it could still be installed if required. As to the DRM issues, there have been substantial improvements to this in T:ANE

Regards

 

[normhart]

Thanks for the reply Zec, I've done some research on the problematic slugsmasher resources. It appears that they were included with Murchison 2 and functioned perfectly in TS12 49922. With the upgrade to SP1 they were broken, apparently due to using PMs. I updated slugsmasher's "dc_bogey_24" <kuid2:86661:50003:1> converting the PM and adding a shadow.im and updating the file structure etc. in TS12 49922 and exported it to a cdp. I then imported it into TS12SP1 however SP1 required me to commit it and, of course, I don't have permission to modify "built in" assets. So much for that. Any other bright ideas?

BTW:
Size TS12 49922 828KB


Size TS12 49922 PM>IM+shadow 745KB


Size TS12SP1 484KB (which does not work)

BTW, BTW cloning the identical file and importing it into SP1 under my kuid produced a working bogie.

I think I will try to get a stable version of TS2010 or TS2009 working.

Edit: In thinking about the ramifications of this it would appear that any freeware that is included in any payware of any sort becomes "built in" and is no longer freeware. Would that be correct? Or, if I didn't own Murchison 2, would they remain freeware if I had installed them from slugsmasher's website?

 

[clam1952]

Thanks for the reply Zec, I've done some research on the problematic slugsmasher resources. It appears that they were included with Murchison 2 and functioned perfectly in TS12 49922. With the upgrade to SP1 they were broken, apparently due to using PMs. I updated slugsmasher's "dc_bogey_24" <kuid2:86661:50003:1> converting the PM and adding a shadow.im and updating the file structure etc. in TS12 49922 and exported it to a cdp. I then imported it into TS12SP1 however SP1 required me to commit it and, of course, I don't have permission to modify "built in" assets. So much for that. Any other bright ideas?


BTW:
Size TS12 49922 828KB


Size TS12 49922 PM>IM+shadow 745KB


Size TS12SP1 484KB (which does not work)

BTW, BTW cloning the identical file and importing it into SP1 under my kuid produced a working bogie.

I think I will try to get a stable version of TS2010 or TS2009 working.

Edit: In thinking about the ramifications of this it would appear that any freeware that is included in any payware of any sort becomes "built in" and is no longer freeware. Would that be correct? Or, if I didn't own Murchison 2, would they remain freeware if I had installed them from slugsmasher's website?

If you had increased the version number above the SP1 version it would have installed.
In 49922 open for edit fix and up-version the kuid to <kuid2:86661:50003:2>. Copy folder to desktop and revert the original. Open 61388 Drag folder from desktop to main window, it will install and obsolete the builtin. Delete folder on desktop Just done it here to prove it works.

 

[cressjl]

This is a very useful thread. Thanks, gentlemen...

 

[jacksonbarno]

There are many ways to get around this problem, but it doesn't change the fact that now N3V thinks that making everything uneditable is the "right" thing to do. Guess we'll just have to wait and see if they force third parties to make software to break this impeding and un-called for function.

 

[normhart]

If you had increased the version number above the SP1 version it would have installed.
In 49922 open for edit fix and up-version the kuid to <kuid2:86661:50003:2>. Copy folder to desktop and revert the original. Open 61388 Drag folder from desktop to main window, it will install and obsolete the builtin. Delete folder on desktop Just done it here to prove it works.

Awesome, that did the trick! Thanks so much Malc! Now for the 51 or so other slugsmasher "built in" assets. (most don't seem to need repair thank goodness)

jacksonbarno - Zec seemed to indicate above that tane might handle this situation better. One can only hope.

I tried saving the updated kuid2:86661:50003:2 as a cdp, deleting it, and then importing it and it was successful! I have sent the update to slugsmasher and if he accepts it he'll be hosting it on his site.

 

[jacksonbarno]

"Better" is a relative term. All I saw was that they don't care about content creators or support, and that they will do all they can (changing texture format and locking content) to prevent users from accessing the game files, because, ya know... It's so evident that 3rd party content doesn't make this game go 'round.