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Britain's Disgusting Railways
- Thread starter wholbr
- Start date
Dean_Forest
Member
What is really needed is for businesses to look outside London. With a lot of these jobs though, it would be quite practical to have them work from home.
Some fair points there Bill I would admit. The US situation is a kind of awkward one to compare with even allowing for the country being a lot bigger. What they have nationally is a rather poor thing compared to decades ago when there was more of a national thing going on.
The government here is I think moving in the right direction due to heavy weight of passengers and I do also accept that with a much bigger population south of the border a greater challenge. Time after tie there have been occasions when the existing Network rail set up is enough to make one sigh. Even "locally"or me up here there have been times when Network Rail would make you groan with the responsibility they have in the negatives.
So although I am very pleased at the continually rising passenger numbers that Network situation is overdue for being seen to.
The government here is I think moving in the right direction due to heavy weight of passengers and I do also accept that with a much bigger population south of the border a greater challenge. Time after tie there have been occasions when the existing Network rail set up is enough to make one sigh. Even "locally"or me up here there have been times when Network Rail would make you groan with the responsibility they have in the negatives.
So although I am very pleased at the continually rising passenger numbers that Network situation is overdue for being seen to.
Hi everybody.
I would very much agree with RJ Howie's statement above that the “network situation needs sorting out.” in that, the matter in regard to the long running Southern dispute seems to be developing towards the government about to take action in breaking the strike(s)
In the above,the press and media have been carrying reports in recent days that the army have been placed on alert to the effect that they may be ordered to assist in alleviating the effects of any further industrial action. The military it would seem have been instructed to immediately bring forward a plan for troops to act in ether driving or guarding assembled large fleets of coaches and buses in areas affected by the dispute.
Many bus and coach operators are being contacted to inform the authorities of the number of vehicles that could be made available from the beginning of January for the above operation. Also If the press and media reports are correct the military and police authorities have been granted powers to cancel all police and armed forces leave etc also from the beginning of January.
Sadly the government has been forced into the above action as the public disgust with what is seen as “the lack of any action” by government to bring the long running dispute to an end has grown into a huge furore in the weeks approaching this Christmas period. For it has to be stated that it has been the daily commuters and those traveling in connection with their businesses that have been the true victims in this dispute. It is they that have lost wages, salaries and in some cases their entire employment or businesses for the sake of an argument about who shuts a train's doors.The whole of Southern England cannot be held to ransom by what is probably less than one thousand rail workers (donkeys led by jackasses). That stated, when this dispute is brought to an end it has to be ensured that any similar situation can never happen again.
In all probability should the military have to be used in the dispute it will in all likelihood be commenced in responce to the action planned by both rail unions beginning on the 9th of January. Everyone with any interest in the UKs railways can now only sadly wait to witness what may be about to follow
Bill
I would very much agree with RJ Howie's statement above that the “network situation needs sorting out.” in that, the matter in regard to the long running Southern dispute seems to be developing towards the government about to take action in breaking the strike(s)
In the above,the press and media have been carrying reports in recent days that the army have been placed on alert to the effect that they may be ordered to assist in alleviating the effects of any further industrial action. The military it would seem have been instructed to immediately bring forward a plan for troops to act in ether driving or guarding assembled large fleets of coaches and buses in areas affected by the dispute.
Many bus and coach operators are being contacted to inform the authorities of the number of vehicles that could be made available from the beginning of January for the above operation. Also If the press and media reports are correct the military and police authorities have been granted powers to cancel all police and armed forces leave etc also from the beginning of January.
Sadly the government has been forced into the above action as the public disgust with what is seen as “the lack of any action” by government to bring the long running dispute to an end has grown into a huge furore in the weeks approaching this Christmas period. For it has to be stated that it has been the daily commuters and those traveling in connection with their businesses that have been the true victims in this dispute. It is they that have lost wages, salaries and in some cases their entire employment or businesses for the sake of an argument about who shuts a train's doors.The whole of Southern England cannot be held to ransom by what is probably less than one thousand rail workers (donkeys led by jackasses). That stated, when this dispute is brought to an end it has to be ensured that any similar situation can never happen again.
In all probability should the military have to be used in the dispute it will in all likelihood be commenced in responce to the action planned by both rail unions beginning on the 9th of January. Everyone with any interest in the UKs railways can now only sadly wait to witness what may be about to follow
Bill
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cyberdongreen
AKA: cyberdonblue
Hi everybody.
I find it difficult to believe that persons are still trying to argue against the case in regard to DOO when every authoritative body within or associated to Britain's railways have advised that the proposed driver door operation is safe to place into practise. The guards renamed as conductors will remain on the trains but will be more concentrated on ticket inspection etc which is badly needed with wholesale “fare dodging” being carried out which anyone who travels regularly on our railways witnesses every day...
Bill
Oh dear Bill, you are so sadly wrong. EVERY authoritative body? Really??
There is no more authoritative a body than the men and women who do the job itself day in and day out - and they are saying to every one of you, loud and clear, "IT IS NOT SAFE." The trouble is, you will not listen to the REAL experts. The ones who have actually experienced, and still do on a daily basis, the problems and the difficulties that they are trying to warn you about. All of these other so called "authoritative bodies" are theorists. The ones who look at the job and say, "Well I can't see why it won't work," and "According to our research... blah, blah, blah..." How often have they been out there in the wind and the rain, in the snow and the ice and the darkness, trying their damnedest to keep something like a service going when the brown stuff hits the fan? (because that's often when accidents happen) I'll tell you. Never!!! Not once! Not in a million years, that's how often - but all of a sudden they're experts? They stood around somewhere with a clip board in their hands, on a fine summer's morning and thought, "The driver could open and close those doors. Don't need a Guard too." Oh thank you Professor. Can I refer the deceased's relatives to you when the inevitable happens?
The whole thing is a con by penny pinching TOC's trying to hog more and more of the trough for themselves.
Furthermore, there is no guarantee that Guards (renamed conductors and then train managers - by the Branson mob, initially) WILL be on every train. Southern are using the old railway speak for, "There will be a second person on every train at first but when the dust settles we'll get rid of them completely and have some ticket snapper or other who works for peanuts taking their place (and then we'll do away with that grade altogether once people get used to them being missing once in a while.)" How do I know? Because I've seen it all before, that's how. These are tricks that have been used for years and these new kids on the block think they are clever and no one knows what they're up to. They are as easy to read as a book though.
These days, look at ticket offices at local stations. They are virtually always manned during the morning rush hour (because most people buy a Return ticket when going to work) but very few are still manned in the evening. Ticket machines and roaming ticket snappers are all the rage - and hooligans roam free to vandalise and terrorise as they please. TOC's don't really care whether they get the meagre fares from the late evening time. It costs more to collect those fares than they'd get in revenue so they look the other way as much as possible pretending it's all under control. Then when they get rumbled they plead poverty and blame staff sickness and absenteeism when in reality there have probably been no staff doing the jobs in question for months or even years.
All of our local stations were fully manned - morning, noon and night - at one time and the staff at those stations went out onto the platform to meet EVERY single train without fail. Under those circumstances, yes you could probably implement D.O.O. of doors. Nowadays, not a chance.
You are asking a man (or a woman) to stick their neck out every time they stop at a station these days. You are asking them to gamble with your life or your physical abilities. You are asking them to switch off their brain and don't worry about the consequences of getting it horribly wrong - and no, I'm not just talking about a manslaughter charge. I'm talking about being able to live with your conscience after you've killed somebody. Then, after someone has died, these "authoritative bodies" will sit in their nice, warm, comfortable, glass walled offices, reading their copy of the latest 'rules', before deciding , "It was all your fault! You're sacked!"
Dave
Cybordongeen, all vocational drivers have peoples lives in their hands throughout any working shift. It matters not whether they are a truck driver reversing a 40:ton truck into a hauling way in a city centre, or a single man bus driver with passengers getting on or off every few minites. All vocational drivers accept the foregoing when they take up the profession.
Their is an old adage that states "IF YOU CANNOT STAND THE HEAT STAY OUT OF THE KICHEN". In regard to the "professional" train drivers the foregoing would seem to never be more true.
Also, what about the people who are losing wages, salaries or even their entire employment or businesses, you never seem to mention them in your postings, it is all about the rail staff as if that is all that matters in this dispute along with their one hundred and fifty years of agreements. Well, with every respect, myself and millions of others in this country feel that it is time that yourself and others in the rail industry moved on in the same way as other industry's have moved on in time and ceased living in the past.
Time to bring this stupid dispute to an end, and if that means a large number of current employees on Southern have to "go out the door", so be it. The foregoing will without doubt be the case if the military have to become involved in this dispute.
Bill
Their is an old adage that states "IF YOU CANNOT STAND THE HEAT STAY OUT OF THE KICHEN". In regard to the "professional" train drivers the foregoing would seem to never be more true.
Also, what about the people who are losing wages, salaries or even their entire employment or businesses, you never seem to mention them in your postings, it is all about the rail staff as if that is all that matters in this dispute along with their one hundred and fifty years of agreements. Well, with every respect, myself and millions of others in this country feel that it is time that yourself and others in the rail industry moved on in the same way as other industry's have moved on in time and ceased living in the past.
Time to bring this stupid dispute to an end, and if that means a large number of current employees on Southern have to "go out the door", so be it. The foregoing will without doubt be the case if the military have to become involved in this dispute.
Bill
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cyberdongreen
AKA: cyberdonblue
Sorry Bill, but I disagree once again. All through your reply you express concern for those who are losing money. Money would be the least of their concerns if they lost an arm, a leg or worse still, their lives. Furthermore, no Train Driver (Engineer) took on the job on the understanding that they would agree to throw safety out of the window and go gallavanting about the railway on their own. One hundred and fifty years of agreements - that you scornfully refer to - came about through hard fought battles involving the men at the sharp end who suffered the misery, the injury and the hardships of private companies cutting corners at every available opportunity.
Add to that the perspective of accidents or total power failures. If a train is involved in a collision/derailment or there is a total loss of electrical power (rendering train detection systems useless) it is the job of the Driver to go forward and protect his train from any possible oncoming traffic. It is the job of the Guard (Conductor, Train Manager or whatever else you wish to call him) to go back and protect the rear of the train from following traffic. This is more relevant than ever in areas such as that in which Southern Trains operate because of the multiple lines that run side by side into and out of the capital. In the event of an accident, protection would have to be carried out on all adjacent running lines - forward AND rear - and in a specific order that someone not trained in the rules of protection would have no clue about. (And that order came about through bitter experience and catastrophe, NOT Health & Safety!)
Southern have made it clear to the Unions that they have no intention of training their cheaper to employ ticket snappers in the rules of protection. They would be onboard staff concerned only with "Revenue Protection", as it is now called. So, in the event of a collision and the Driver (Engineer) being killed, you would have a situation where the "blind were leading the blind." You could potentially have people wandering around a third rail electrified railway with no clue as to the whereabouts of the live rails or the direction from which to be aware of potential oncoming traffic. And that's without even going near the subject of bi-directional running and a host of other things the public have absolutely no perception of. What Health & Safety clause should they send for then, Bill? Would you rather be led to safety by somebody like me, Bill - a Train Driver of 30 plus years experience - or somebody who was a Security Guard in a shopping Mall last month and knows all about tickets but nothing about trains?
The problem with you people is you believe everything you read or see on the TV about railways. In reality, railways are not fun toys that just about anyone can go out and play with. They will kill you if you don't know what you are doing - especially when you are operating on a large scale. These clever-arse modern fly-by-night "bosses" know nothing about railways and everything about cutting corners in the name of profit. Unfortunately, it's intelligent people like you, Bill, that allow them to get away with it.
Dave
Add to that the perspective of accidents or total power failures. If a train is involved in a collision/derailment or there is a total loss of electrical power (rendering train detection systems useless) it is the job of the Driver to go forward and protect his train from any possible oncoming traffic. It is the job of the Guard (Conductor, Train Manager or whatever else you wish to call him) to go back and protect the rear of the train from following traffic. This is more relevant than ever in areas such as that in which Southern Trains operate because of the multiple lines that run side by side into and out of the capital. In the event of an accident, protection would have to be carried out on all adjacent running lines - forward AND rear - and in a specific order that someone not trained in the rules of protection would have no clue about. (And that order came about through bitter experience and catastrophe, NOT Health & Safety!)
Southern have made it clear to the Unions that they have no intention of training their cheaper to employ ticket snappers in the rules of protection. They would be onboard staff concerned only with "Revenue Protection", as it is now called. So, in the event of a collision and the Driver (Engineer) being killed, you would have a situation where the "blind were leading the blind." You could potentially have people wandering around a third rail electrified railway with no clue as to the whereabouts of the live rails or the direction from which to be aware of potential oncoming traffic. And that's without even going near the subject of bi-directional running and a host of other things the public have absolutely no perception of. What Health & Safety clause should they send for then, Bill? Would you rather be led to safety by somebody like me, Bill - a Train Driver of 30 plus years experience - or somebody who was a Security Guard in a shopping Mall last month and knows all about tickets but nothing about trains?
The problem with you people is you believe everything you read or see on the TV about railways. In reality, railways are not fun toys that just about anyone can go out and play with. They will kill you if you don't know what you are doing - especially when you are operating on a large scale. These clever-arse modern fly-by-night "bosses" know nothing about railways and everything about cutting corners in the name of profit. Unfortunately, it's intelligent people like you, Bill, that allow them to get away with it.
Dave
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Hi everybody.
Cybordongeen, in regard to to your posting at #127 of this thread, you seem to believe that it is only the drivers and guards that have any knowledge of rail safety whatsoever and that all others involved with Britain's railways are totally ignorant in the matter. Therefore I will repeat the statement I made in my posting at #115 of this thread that being:-
If the guards and drivers feel they have such a strong case in the door closing dispute, then why not ask an outside body such as IOSH (the Institute for occupational safety and health) to look at all the evidence and give an independent judgment on the matter. The chartered members of IOSH carry the highest qualifications that can be obtained in industrial safety and many are members of the Health & Safety Executive or Commission. Those persons have many years of experience in all fields of industrial safety including serious accident investigation.
In the above, IOSH have now formally offered their services in providing independent judgment on all matters in the Southern dispute. Therefore ,all such arguments as you have sighted in your postings cybordongreen could be placed before that body for adjudication. But, no the RMT and ASLEF it would seem will not do that, they would rather take direct action against the long suffering rail traveling public without having their case tested independently.
So, in the above and with the greatest of respect, perhaps cybordongreen with your knowledge of the unions involved in the dispute and in regard to Britain's railways in general you could inform this forum why the unions do not take up the IOSH offer. Most certainly if such a body as IOSH came out in support of the union's safety grievances in regard to the proposed train door procedures, then the dispute would be as good as won in the eyes of almost everyone.
However, there is without doubt an alternative reason why the union leaders do not wish to have the matter dealt with to an arbitration conclusion. we all now know that this so called “safety dispute” has nothing to do with safety whatsoever. The General Secretary of the RMT union has been recorded addressing a union reps conference stating that the dispute is about bringing down a “government that hates the working class”.
The foregoing statement confirms what many have suspected throughout this dispute, that the leadership of both ASLEF and the RMT union's have some vision of creating through chaos a socialist utopian Britain that has never been achieved anywhere even after 70 years of continuous trying and failing in Russia.
Therefore, and again with every respect to your experience and knowledge cybordongreen perhaps you can again justify to this forum why such a stance is being taken and why your own union ASLEF has failed to condemn that statement as every other union has condemned it.
In the above it would seem to me and I am sure many others there is one basic principle at stake in this so called dispute. That principle would be that if the rail unions will not accept independent arbitration and declares a desire to “bring down” an elected government by non democratic means, then they leave that government with no other option but to use all methods at its disposal to preserve order and democracy. That this government very much look like carrying out with the use of the military.
I also note cybordongreen that you still express no concern in your postings for the everyday rail commuters who on a daily basis cannot get to work and thereby lose wages, salaries, often their employment or their businesses. Are they just “collateral damage” in your view of things cybordongreen, and of no consequence in the rail guards and drivers great scheme of things where only they matter.
And a very a merry Christmas to all
Bill
Cybordongeen, in regard to to your posting at #127 of this thread, you seem to believe that it is only the drivers and guards that have any knowledge of rail safety whatsoever and that all others involved with Britain's railways are totally ignorant in the matter. Therefore I will repeat the statement I made in my posting at #115 of this thread that being:-
If the guards and drivers feel they have such a strong case in the door closing dispute, then why not ask an outside body such as IOSH (the Institute for occupational safety and health) to look at all the evidence and give an independent judgment on the matter. The chartered members of IOSH carry the highest qualifications that can be obtained in industrial safety and many are members of the Health & Safety Executive or Commission. Those persons have many years of experience in all fields of industrial safety including serious accident investigation.
In the above, IOSH have now formally offered their services in providing independent judgment on all matters in the Southern dispute. Therefore ,all such arguments as you have sighted in your postings cybordongreen could be placed before that body for adjudication. But, no the RMT and ASLEF it would seem will not do that, they would rather take direct action against the long suffering rail traveling public without having their case tested independently.
So, in the above and with the greatest of respect, perhaps cybordongreen with your knowledge of the unions involved in the dispute and in regard to Britain's railways in general you could inform this forum why the unions do not take up the IOSH offer. Most certainly if such a body as IOSH came out in support of the union's safety grievances in regard to the proposed train door procedures, then the dispute would be as good as won in the eyes of almost everyone.
However, there is without doubt an alternative reason why the union leaders do not wish to have the matter dealt with to an arbitration conclusion. we all now know that this so called “safety dispute” has nothing to do with safety whatsoever. The General Secretary of the RMT union has been recorded addressing a union reps conference stating that the dispute is about bringing down a “government that hates the working class”.
The foregoing statement confirms what many have suspected throughout this dispute, that the leadership of both ASLEF and the RMT union's have some vision of creating through chaos a socialist utopian Britain that has never been achieved anywhere even after 70 years of continuous trying and failing in Russia.
Therefore, and again with every respect to your experience and knowledge cybordongreen perhaps you can again justify to this forum why such a stance is being taken and why your own union ASLEF has failed to condemn that statement as every other union has condemned it.
In the above it would seem to me and I am sure many others there is one basic principle at stake in this so called dispute. That principle would be that if the rail unions will not accept independent arbitration and declares a desire to “bring down” an elected government by non democratic means, then they leave that government with no other option but to use all methods at its disposal to preserve order and democracy. That this government very much look like carrying out with the use of the military.
I also note cybordongreen that you still express no concern in your postings for the everyday rail commuters who on a daily basis cannot get to work and thereby lose wages, salaries, often their employment or their businesses. Are they just “collateral damage” in your view of things cybordongreen, and of no consequence in the rail guards and drivers great scheme of things where only they matter.
And a very a merry Christmas to all
Bill
Dean_Forest
Member
The unions have been perfectly willing to compromise. In August RMT and GTR agreed to a deal along the lines of that done at Scotrail, the Department for Transport quashed it.
Do you really think that the traincrews are plotting a revolution? RMT leadership might be getting delusions of grandeur but the crews are simply trying to keep themselves and others safe from harm.
You say"If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen". Why do you think so many more drivers transfer to non-DOO TOC than go the other way?
Do you really think that the traincrews are plotting a revolution? RMT leadership might be getting delusions of grandeur but the crews are simply trying to keep themselves and others safe from harm.
You say"If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen". Why do you think so many more drivers transfer to non-DOO TOC than go the other way?
cyberdongreen
AKA: cyberdonblue
Obviously Bill's been reading The Sun again......Do you really think that the traincrews are plotting a revolution? RMT leadership might be getting delusions of grandeur but the crews are simply trying to keep themselves and others safe from harm....
As a former ASLEF member I have little or no knowledge of the RMT Union and its practices, Bill. However, I can tell you that ASLEF is run by their National Council and the General Secretary's voice is but one of many (and I believe RMT runs in a similar, if not exactly the same, fashion.) Any plot to bring down any government would require much more than an irate General Secretary of a rail union and a dispute with traincrews in the Southern area of railway operations.
I believe the last time the trade unions brought about the demise of a government was in 1974. Note I said "trade unions," plural. There were many involved, not least the miners. This rubbish you cite is another great example of the ludicrous Tory press wheeling out the Trotsky stories as soon as the working classes show any sign of standing up for themselves. All of a sudden everyone involved is a "Leftie" troublemaker, a Trotskyite or some such thing. Sorry Bill, I think you've destroyed your credibility completely with that one, mate.
As for any loss of wages etc with regards to their passengers, I think you can very firmly lay the blame at the door of an obstinate Southern management. Working class people only go on strike as an act of desperation, not as a leisure activity - as you insinuate. The wealthy don't care either way; until it starts to hit THEM in the pocket, that is.
Happy New Year
Dave
Dean_Forest
Member
Though the feeling often expressed by Tony Miles (who, let's face it is about the best-connected rail journo) is that if GTR were allowed to go for a compromise, this issue would be resolved in days. It just goes to show who pulls the strings in this matter (and the DfT are being very evasive on legal questions at the moment). The commuters' legal challenge should prove interesting.
The man who a lot of the newspapers have focused on (definitely a left-wing firebrand he), Tosh McDonald is the President of ASLEF. The newspapers seem to have forgotten that an organisation's president will have little say in what goes on. Current Southern crews are the best people to speak to but they may be unwilling to speak out, such is the culture of bullying from above.
The man who a lot of the newspapers have focused on (definitely a left-wing firebrand he), Tosh McDonald is the President of ASLEF. The newspapers seem to have forgotten that an organisation's president will have little say in what goes on. Current Southern crews are the best people to speak to but they may be unwilling to speak out, such is the culture of bullying from above.
Hi everybody.
Also,I have also never been a reader of the sun newspaper and like all football fans I would never dream of touching “that rag” since the way it reported the Hillsborough Disaster in 1989. A fellow supporter I knew well at that time was very severely injured in the stadium crush. Therefore cybordongreen, respectfully please stay away from conjecture and degrading personal comments regarding myself or others on this forum which you seem to be very fond of, or your posts may get reported to the moderators.
Cybordongreen, in the above it is not the management of Southern who are refusing to drive or guard/conduct the trains. It is those who are employed to carry out those tasks who are causing the disruption. As i have stated many times in this thread, if those employees feel they have a strong safety case regarding the proposed change of procedure in regard to “who should close a train's doors” then they can easily take the matter to an outside body for independent arbitration. A body as IOSH (The Institute for Occupational safety and Health) would be ideal for such a pupose
.
Cyberdongreen, in regard to your above posting and a similar statements made by Dean Forrest in his posting at various stages of this thread, then yes the General Executive councils of almost all trade unions do oversee the day to day running of the organizations. However, those councils are made up of lay members, but it is the full time employees of the unions (such as the General Secretary or National officers) that who carry out the negotiations with employers.
Therefore, it is those persons in this dispute with their hard left views who may well “not push too hard for a settlement” as to see the dispute continue substantiates their political agenda. Example to the foregoing, Arthur Scargill left wing General Secretary of the National union of miners, took the miners out on strike in 1984 and perpetuated that dispute for a whole year in an attempt to bring down the Margaret Thatcher tory government. During the dispute Scargill claimed the strike was about saving mining jobs. However, evidence gathered and many times written since those times has demonstrated that the dispute was very much based on the Scargill and others political agenda.
In the above, the problem for elected lay member Executive, National or Regional councils will always be that they receive reports back from the full time officers in regard to how any negotiation has gone. They can question those who carried out the negotiations, but it is very difficult for those bodies to go against the recommendations put forward by those who have carried out the negotiating.
The second of those reasons would be that the Government may well be about to bring the armed forces onto the streets of southern England in an attempt to keep commuters “on the move”. The foregoing would almost certainly need to be accompanied by a declaration of a “state of emergency” to make it legal for the military to carry out its duties in such a situation. Therefore it is unsurprising that the Government would make any comment in the “run up” to that very possible situation.
Dean, i believe there are several legal challenges being made by commuter groups at present. The one in regard to overcrowding on station platforms seems to be the most interesting and challenging to both sides in this dispute.
Bill
Cyberdonegreen, with every respect to your above statement, but I believe you are incorrect in stating that it was 1974 that a demize of a government was brought about by industrial action. It was in fact 1979 in what became known as “the winter of discontent” which destroyed any prospect of the then Labour government being re-elected and brought to power the Tory government of Margaret Thatcher which remained in power until 1998. An ironic “great victory” for the trade union movement, and one they have never recovered from.Bill's been reading The Sun again...Obviously I believe the last time the trade unions brought about the demise of a government was in 1974. Note I said "trade unions," plural. There were many involved, not least the miners.
Also,I have also never been a reader of the sun newspaper and like all football fans I would never dream of touching “that rag” since the way it reported the Hillsborough Disaster in 1989. A fellow supporter I knew well at that time was very severely injured in the stadium crush. Therefore cybordongreen, respectfully please stay away from conjecture and degrading personal comments regarding myself or others on this forum which you seem to be very fond of, or your posts may get reported to the moderators.
As for any loss of wages etc with regards to their passengers, I think you can very firmly lay the blame at the door of an obstinate Southern management. Working class people only go on strike as an act of desperation, not as a leisure activity - as you insinuate. The wealthy don't care either way; until it starts to hit THEM in the pocket, that is.
Cybordongreen, in the above it is not the management of Southern who are refusing to drive or guard/conduct the trains. It is those who are employed to carry out those tasks who are causing the disruption. As i have stated many times in this thread, if those employees feel they have a strong safety case regarding the proposed change of procedure in regard to “who should close a train's doors” then they can easily take the matter to an outside body for independent arbitration. A body as IOSH (The Institute for Occupational safety and Health) would be ideal for such a pupose
.
As a former ASLEF member I have little or no knowledge of the RMT Union and its practices, Bill. However, I can tell you that ASLEF is run by their National Council and the General Secretary's voice is but one of many (and I believe RMT runs in a similar, if not exactly the same, fashion.) Any plot to bring down any government would require much more than an irate General Secretary of a rail union and a dispute with train crews in the Southern area of railway operations.
Cyberdongreen, in regard to your above posting and a similar statements made by Dean Forrest in his posting at various stages of this thread, then yes the General Executive councils of almost all trade unions do oversee the day to day running of the organizations. However, those councils are made up of lay members, but it is the full time employees of the unions (such as the General Secretary or National officers) that who carry out the negotiations with employers.
Therefore, it is those persons in this dispute with their hard left views who may well “not push too hard for a settlement” as to see the dispute continue substantiates their political agenda. Example to the foregoing, Arthur Scargill left wing General Secretary of the National union of miners, took the miners out on strike in 1984 and perpetuated that dispute for a whole year in an attempt to bring down the Margaret Thatcher tory government. During the dispute Scargill claimed the strike was about saving mining jobs. However, evidence gathered and many times written since those times has demonstrated that the dispute was very much based on the Scargill and others political agenda.
In the above, the problem for elected lay member Executive, National or Regional councils will always be that they receive reports back from the full time officers in regard to how any negotiation has gone. They can question those who carried out the negotiations, but it is very difficult for those bodies to go against the recommendations put forward by those who have carried out the negotiating.
Dean Forrest, the Department of Transport will not comment on the Southern dispute for two reasons. The first of those would be that the Drivers and Guards are the sole employees of Govia and therefore all official comment on the dispute and their employment terms and conditions must come from that body under UK legislation.It just goes to show who pulls the strings in this matter (and the DfT are being very evasive on legal questions at the moment). The commuters' legal challenge should prove interesting.
The second of those reasons would be that the Government may well be about to bring the armed forces onto the streets of southern England in an attempt to keep commuters “on the move”. The foregoing would almost certainly need to be accompanied by a declaration of a “state of emergency” to make it legal for the military to carry out its duties in such a situation. Therefore it is unsurprising that the Government would make any comment in the “run up” to that very possible situation.
Dean, i believe there are several legal challenges being made by commuter groups at present. The one in regard to overcrowding on station platforms seems to be the most interesting and challenging to both sides in this dispute.
Bill
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My god, this is thread has reached peak bore level. Which bit of Britain's railway is supposed to be disgusting, I always thought it was the BR sandwich? To be honest, I can't actually remember now.
Lighten up lads and accept that while you may not necessarily agree with views contrary to your own, your own views many not always be right; some things aren't always black and white.
Lighten up lads and accept that while you may not necessarily agree with views contrary to your own, your own views many not always be right; some things aren't always black and white.
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Must be the bit that wholbr uses?...Which bit of Britain's railway is supposed to be disgusting...
Rob.
johnwhelan
Well-known member
Must be the bit that wholbr uses?
Rob.
Where the Sun doesn't reach?
Cheerio John
johnwhelan
Well-known member
I would say that pfx does have a point although he has unfortunately not been innocent in bygone days re the right of opinions but I do feel at present he has a corner to be fair. Recently I took a note of this rather unsavoury and out of date stupidity regarding a Union.
"Unions are coordinating to bring the government down? Shock, horror: guess what? We are bloody are. If you spit on your own then just wipe it away. but if we spit together we can drown the b*******."
- Sean Hoyle, President RMT.
I elect MP's to run the country not militant Trade Unionists of a wrong out of date stance. It was people like that leader who helped decline the Trade Union membership nationally by millions. For many years I worked in a Local Authority at a time when you were forced to join a Union but I did not pay the bit of subs o a party. Until things improved I got stuck into the mental midget minds and in doing so found others just waiting for a leader being of the same mind and pushed the arrogants into a less intolerant role!
Anyway I do not ant just to simply jump into the idea that the railways are disgusting full stop. It depends on where you are regrading service and much else. As I have previously said and everyone knows there are far more people using the railways than when governments ran them. Now I am not saying there are not challenges in the armies of passengers and pressures but misusing Union situations is not a proper direction and the views I quoted above although do not apply to all in that area does not help one little bit. That man's mindset is frankly like a re-birth of decades ago and will not interfere with democracy and government.
How the railway system continues to develop does depend on rail companies, Network Rail, government and Unions but we don't vote Unions like the RMT to run the governing or country.
"Unions are coordinating to bring the government down? Shock, horror: guess what? We are bloody are. If you spit on your own then just wipe it away. but if we spit together we can drown the b*******."
- Sean Hoyle, President RMT.
I elect MP's to run the country not militant Trade Unionists of a wrong out of date stance. It was people like that leader who helped decline the Trade Union membership nationally by millions. For many years I worked in a Local Authority at a time when you were forced to join a Union but I did not pay the bit of subs o a party. Until things improved I got stuck into the mental midget minds and in doing so found others just waiting for a leader being of the same mind and pushed the arrogants into a less intolerant role!
Anyway I do not ant just to simply jump into the idea that the railways are disgusting full stop. It depends on where you are regrading service and much else. As I have previously said and everyone knows there are far more people using the railways than when governments ran them. Now I am not saying there are not challenges in the armies of passengers and pressures but misusing Union situations is not a proper direction and the views I quoted above although do not apply to all in that area does not help one little bit. That man's mindset is frankly like a re-birth of decades ago and will not interfere with democracy and government.
How the railway system continues to develop does depend on rail companies, Network Rail, government and Unions but we don't vote Unions like the RMT to run the governing or country.
Hi everybody.
rjhowie, I am pleased that from your above posting you demonstrate at least a few of us in this debate have taken the time to read what the union leaders involved in this dispute have stated. Along with the remarks that Sean Hoyle has made which you rjhowie have posted above, Tosh McDonald the “President” of ASLEF has also at various times in statements promised that rail commuters can expect up to a decade of misery or “until a government of socialist working class principles is brought to power in Britain”. Please note, he did not mention the word elected in any of his foregoing addresses.
Len McCluskey the General Secretary of the Unite (formerly the great Transport & General Workers Union) and a self confirmed member of the British Communist Party (probably its only member these days) has also made similar statements in regard to industrial action being used to bring about political change. Of course the chances of these dinosaurs achieving anything similar to what they hope for is negligible. However, the disruption they are causing on the rail network in Southern England is very real, hence the need for government action that is being reported now.
In regard to “unsavoury” comments rjhowie, then as a few of us where discussing on a different forum a few days back, it takes place in all social media at present. As generally agreed their, It happens when persons feel they are “not equipped” to deal with a debate or subject and it is then that they turn to personal degrading comments or disruptive postings.
There are also those who state that they are “bored” with a subject and are leaving the thread but then “ pop up” a few pages later to demonstrate to all that they are still reading it (LOL). Of course I would not wish any member of this forum to think I am “ painting them with the above brushes”, heaven forbid.
Anyway, we are now off to celebrate the new year at a wonderful hotel in the middle of Exmoor with huge old stone fireplaces, roaring log fires and great food. That stated, if the leaders of the rail unions ever get the government they wish in Britain, in all probability we would not be able to go unless we had the correct travel documents stamped by the local commissar. (LOL)
A very happy new year to all forum members
Bill
rjhowie, I am pleased that from your above posting you demonstrate at least a few of us in this debate have taken the time to read what the union leaders involved in this dispute have stated. Along with the remarks that Sean Hoyle has made which you rjhowie have posted above, Tosh McDonald the “President” of ASLEF has also at various times in statements promised that rail commuters can expect up to a decade of misery or “until a government of socialist working class principles is brought to power in Britain”. Please note, he did not mention the word elected in any of his foregoing addresses.
Len McCluskey the General Secretary of the Unite (formerly the great Transport & General Workers Union) and a self confirmed member of the British Communist Party (probably its only member these days) has also made similar statements in regard to industrial action being used to bring about political change. Of course the chances of these dinosaurs achieving anything similar to what they hope for is negligible. However, the disruption they are causing on the rail network in Southern England is very real, hence the need for government action that is being reported now.
In regard to “unsavoury” comments rjhowie, then as a few of us where discussing on a different forum a few days back, it takes place in all social media at present. As generally agreed their, It happens when persons feel they are “not equipped” to deal with a debate or subject and it is then that they turn to personal degrading comments or disruptive postings.
There are also those who state that they are “bored” with a subject and are leaving the thread but then “ pop up” a few pages later to demonstrate to all that they are still reading it (LOL). Of course I would not wish any member of this forum to think I am “ painting them with the above brushes”, heaven forbid.
Anyway, we are now off to celebrate the new year at a wonderful hotel in the middle of Exmoor with huge old stone fireplaces, roaring log fires and great food. That stated, if the leaders of the rail unions ever get the government they wish in Britain, in all probability we would not be able to go unless we had the correct travel documents stamped by the local commissar. (LOL)
A very happy new year to all forum members
Bill
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Haha, you were so right there bill about what you would need if that extremist element ever got the government style they want and I have a small picture of Tsar Nicholas 2nd to remind me of what can happen! That element is a hang over from the past and they will never get where they want to get. As a young man in my early twenties i worked for a short time with the railways and then after Scottish Covenanters (there is a prominent Howie monument south of Glasgow) and they didn't give in so neither did I! Anyway that lot are no great advantage to progress on our railways and I want to be optimistic about the way ahead .
You have a great wee break and I am hoping after some health issues to try and get over the Irish Sea and do a bit of train running on the NIR and some down south on the IR. All part of my hoped for plan to put a really large productive of railways over the water.
Bobby
ps. Don't bother getting me any rock......
You have a great wee break and I am hoping after some health issues to try and get over the Irish Sea and do a bit of train running on the NIR and some down south on the IR. All part of my hoped for plan to put a really large productive of railways over the water.
Bobby
ps. Don't bother getting me any rock......
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