Britain's Disgusting Railways

[amigacooke]

I feel that it is having the right people in the right jobs that is always the key to success in any organisation. Perhaps they should appoint me and you amigacooke (only the best for our railways).

what do you think
Bill

Well, as appointing people with absolutely no experience seems to be the fashion, I'll give it a go

 

[BLACKWATCH]

I thought it would have been obvious to all that if a group of investors are willing to put up billions to purchase public assets then, unless they have the funds stuffed in their mattresses or in bottles hidden in their garden sheds, they will be borrowing that capital from somewhere and it has to be repaid. Higher prices and reduced services will always follow - improved efficiencies (often a euphemism for cuts) will not make up the slack.

But they didn't, in most cases they were handed the franchises on a plate AND given subsidies by the government, which was taxpayers money.

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.
It is very easy to play the “blame game” in regards to what has brought Britain's passenger rail services to the crisis situation they now find themselves in. The foregoing was so well presented in the BBC documentary link contained in the opening post of this thread. One commuter spoke of how a thirty mile journey (fifteen mile in each direction) was very often taking him a total of five and a half hours traveling time on the top of a full days work. Another commuter speaks of how he has been forced to move home just to keep his employment in all the rail chaos.

In the foregoing, it has become clear that the UK has become over reliant on rail as the main source of personal business and commuter transport with many having no alternative to that fact. Therefore, is it not time once again that Britain stepped back and looked at just what is required to keep the UK on the move, for no matter is more important to the country's economic well being.

For those of us above “a certain age” will remember that in the late 1960s the Harold Wilson labour government spoke on how Britain would need an integrated transport system of both road and rail if transport gridlock was to be avoided in the future. Sadly, that policy was never brought into being and alternating short term policies in favour of road and then rail have been practiced by various governments in the intervening years since that forward thinking Wilson government.

However, it would now seem that the integration of road and rail transport is back on the agenda with the belief that everyone should have a choice of transport in their daily travel needs being a high priority, which is the way it must be in my humble opinion.

In North Somerset we are already witnessing the results of the above. A new motorway junction at Weston Super Mare with a park and ride system so long ruled out by the department of transport is now to be built. A bus metro system is already being constructed from the M32 motorway into Bristol city centre as anyone seeing the traffic chaos in the city at present will vouch as to its building. A very regular circular city center bus service (approximately every three minutes) has been introduced commencing and terminating at the busy Bristol Temple Meads railway station integrating both road and rail public transport at the terminus.

in the above the Bristol District and North Somerset councils have demonstrated great vision in integrating both road and rail transport into the plans. Without doubt we are all rail enthusiasts on this forum and in this hobby. However it has to be accepted that the railways cannot accommodate all or even a majority of Britain's passenger transport needs. The foregoing has been put to the test over the last decade and failed ending in the chaos we now see in many of the UK's regions especially around our major cities.

Playing the blame game for the above problems will not solve those problems. Forward thinking by local councils and others as in Bristol have the best chance of solving the dire conditions so many endure in their daily commutes. Whether those solutions are funded by public or corporate means should be decided as each project is planned depending on circumstances and not by political allegiances.

Bill

 

[marlonza]

Sad to report that it still looks 50% better than our Metro commuters here in South Africa, that smell like hobo, and is as dodgy to ride in as a rollercoaster with no maintenance.

 

[JCitron]

Sad to report that it still looks 50% better than our Metro commuters here in South Africa, that smell like hobo, and is as dodgy to ride in as a rollercoaster with no maintenance.

Our commuter rail isn't much better. We used to have a great system until it was outsourced to Keolis. When that happened, trains ended up late, have broken down more than once, and are really dirty. However, the state doesn't care and just raised the price of the commuter tickets while cutting service.

 

[Paulsw2]

I don't recall British Rail being very good either. Old, old rolling stock as the government always had something more pressing to spend its money on.

IC125, IC225, the Mk2 carriage, the Mk3 carriage, the Mk4 carriage? Nothing that has been built under privatisation has surpassed these for 'customer' satisfaction - ask the passengers!

 

[Shippy2013]

The sore truth of the matter is money, greed and profit. The TOC's are tied by the DFT over what stock and how much they can buy. When procuring stock account has to be taken for franchise changes so the best stock for a particular route is not necessarily purchased as it has to be able to be easily cascaded to other routes when needed. The Pacer was only meant to be a temporary stop gap until more units bested on the 15x series could be procured later, those planned units were cancelled in the 90's due to financial constraints and looming privatisation forcing the Pacers to soldier on.

The other sore truth is the current network (mainlines in particular) or full (at capacity). HS2 will relieve the West Coast, Midland Main Line and have some advantages to the East Coast. The Great Western will, even after the Electrification is complete in now 2024 will still not be helped that much, until the ex southern route from Waterloo to Exeter is redoubled and brought back up to mainline standards to take some of the longer distance West bound traffic off the core route, will still suffer, as for Anglia the GN an GE routes need major investment.

Routes in the London Commuter bealt and on most of the former Southern region are again full to capacity and until a very costly move from the old 3rd rail system is instigated will suffer for a long time. Line capacity is not the only constraint in this area. The 3rd rail system limited the number of trains that can occupy a particular section more than the 25Kv overhead system.

As for the recent problems of industrial action over who shuts the bloody doors. Time to dissolve the RMT they are the biggest thorn in the arse for any of the TOC's. there actions push up the price for commuters, TOC's are unable to streamline and free up resources for other routes as the RMT stick there half penny in every time blocking progress Any Improvements.

 

[amigacooke]

IC125, IC225, the Mk2 carriage, the Mk3 carriage, the Mk4 carriage? Nothing that has been built under privatisation has surpassed these for 'customer' satisfaction - ask the passengers!

However good they may be, I don't recall any of them making an appearance on the SR commuter lines.

 

[Shippy2013]

The southerns decision to go for 3rd rail many decades ago, seemed for some reason to lock that region into using Mk1 based slam door stock well into the early 2000's with just the 319's, 455/456's Mk3 based and 465/466 networkers only covering certain routes from the mid to late 90's. the only other modern stock were the Brighton expresses Mk3 based units and th Gatwick express Mk2 sets.

 

[cyberdongreen]

Take it from someone who has experienced both British Rail and these privatised rail people here in the UK. These privatised Train Operating Companies (TOC's) have raped and pillaged Britain's railway industry from top to bottom. Richard Branson and his cohorts ought to be prosecuted not commended. I believe they are thieves and frauds, the lot of them.

If (the nationalised) British Rail (BR) had been given the levels of investment that these TOC's have been given then Britain would have the finest railway system in the World bar none. Twelve and thirteen coach trains (with proper comfortable seating - including plenty of leg room and luggage storage space ) have been replaced by plastic and fibreglass crap of three and four coaches in length with only enough legroom for children up to the age of about 10 (one of Branson's ideas to model train interiors on aircraft interiors. Why? Pack 'em in and sod the comfort, I suppose.) Furthermore, these "modern" seats may as well be made out of solid wood for all the comfort you get from them - that's if you're lucky enough to find a vacant seat in the first place. Add to that the fact that you could train a monkey to drive these damn trains (computer controlled this that and everything) and it's not hard to see why everyone, from frontline staff to customers, is completely disillusioned. Oh, and they couldn't run to a timetable if their lives depended on it. In my time, when we were "on time" we were ON TIME - not "within 10 minutes of the advertised time" as they classify on time now. Many a time WE even arrived early. They can't even SPELL early these days let alone arrive early. Late or cancelled is all they understand now.

BR got bad publicity because it was easy to knock and joke about. However, in 25 years I never heard of a cancelled train (outside of the immediate London area) before the government split services down into freight, local and inter-city sectors, which we now know was in readiness for privatisation. Things like BR sandwiches were legendary amongst comedians, but did you ever try one in more recent years? (pre-privatisation, of course.) They were pretty good. However, that was never reported in the press. The jokes and the myths sounded better and appealed to the readers more. After all, why let the truth get in the way of a good story.

The TOC's continue to get away with it all because they have got rid of most of the BR expertise and replaced staff with mostly ex-military yes men. "We do things differently nowadays. You guys don't understand the modern way," they say. Oh yes we do and that's why you got rid of us as fast as you could. We'd be on strike every other day if we worked for you. A hundred and fifty years of hard earned agreements with the Unions are being stomped all over every day - and most of them safety related issues. The Government don't want to know. However, if there is ever another major crash/derailment - God forbid - then the real truth will come out and the people responsible ought to pay dearly, though they never do.

Finally, British Rail also had TWO staff pension funds that had an embarrassment of riches - all of which was inherited by the TOC's. As there was so much money in these funds, the TOC's asked the government if they could take a "pensions contribution holiday" so that they could invest more in their daily operations :hehe:. A few years later (surprisingly?) it was discovered that there was now a SEVEN BILLION POUNDS BLACK-HOLE in these pension funds. Where did the money go? Nobody has ever had to explain. Anyone asking about it is fobbed off with some lame comment like, "Oh don't worry. It's all being dealt with. It's only figures not a real black-hole." Not real? Oh? Then why was my pension reduced? Why has the retirement age been extended for those still working? Thieves and robbers, the whole damn lot of them in my opinion.

And don't worry about the electrification of the Bristol to Paddington line, Bill. You're better off with HST's mate. Once the wires are up you'll only end up with another version of Branson's Pendolino's (or Pretendolino's as they are more commonly known by those with experience of them.) Plasic seats and everything peeling or snapping off after a week in service. Pure crap mate. And don't even think about getting a seat.

The owners of these TOC's have destroyed an excellent industry purely in the name of greed. If there's any justice in this World (and I don't believe there is) they should be made to pay the severest of penalties. They are blatantly robbing the British Taxpayer and laughing in our faces while they do it. What's more, this is a global issue. Similar things are happening in every country in the World to every taxpayer in the World. These rich gluttons bleed us all dry and politicians just stand by and watch (no doubt having their pockets lined while they do so, Im sure.)

Dave

 

[BLACKWATCH]

Then we get the Croydon tram incident

Why, with H&S being pushed into every nook & cranny of our lives, is any railed vehicle allowed to run without a 'Deadman' ? unbelievable.

 

[wholbr]

Then we get the Croydon tram incident

Why, with H&S being pushed into every nook & cranny of our lives, is any railed vehicle allowed to run without a 'Deadman' ? unbelievable.

Because they are classed under government legislation as road vehicles and therefore do not require onboard auto stop (deadman) installation or trackside train pprotection.Trams run under the same regulations as buses and coaches in regard to drivers hours etc. However, as the BBC News is now reporting this tram was fitted with a driver disablement protection device.
Bill

 

[BLACKWATCH]

Well I've just read a news report that can't make up it's mind .............

The key safety feature is a vigilance device, known in the railway industry as the "dead man's lever" - a device that brakes automatically if the driver is incapacitated.
Mr Braddock said: "On the tram control lever there is a button which the driver presses at least every 30 seconds. If that button is not pressed the brakes are applied automatically.
"It makes no difference if the driver is powering up or braking, he has to keep pressing that button. It's a routine that you get into."
If the driver lets go, the lever springs back to the neutral position, automatically applying the brakes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37941085

....... so if (as the driver claims), he blacked out, then what happened to these systems?

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.
To bring the thread back on topic, I reference Dave's (cyberdongreen) posting at #30 regarding the electrification of the Great Western Mainline. As I advised in an earlier posting Network Rail informed rail users on Tuesday this week that the electrification of the GWML between London Paddington and Bristol Temple meads would now be curtailed at Bath Spa twelve miles short of the Bristol fifteen platform station which is the largest on the line outside of Paddington.

The cost of the electrification has already taken from the taxpayer two point eight billion pounds when the original budget was laid out as eight hundred million. On Wednesday (which was a good day to bury bad news because of the USA elections) Network Rail announced (mixed with other news), that the cost of the project if completion is to be achieved has risen to a mind blowing five point eight billion.

Thankfully the BBC local news picked up on the Network Rail announcement despite all else that was going on. BBC Bristol was then inundated with emails, SMS and callers all disgusted and wondering how it could cost the taxpayers nearly six billion pounds to electrifie one hundred and twenty miles of track especially when the track is already in existence.

The foregoing bears out all I have experienced in my long life in regard to nationalized industries. As Dave points out in his above posting, those industries are often unfair game for Britain's press barons such as Rupert Murdoch etc. However, those industries without fail always give that press and media all the ammunition they need by way of exorbitant cost to the taxpayer through blatant mismanagement and inefficiency.

In the 1970s industries such as the coal mines, steel making, power generation and the railways were all fully owned by the nation. The problem was that none of the foregoing were ever able to produce a profit and therefore ran by making the UK a high tax nation. It can be argued that the above lead to the “winter of discontent” in 1979 and through that the election of the Thatcher government, which then destroyed all the nationalized industries with the exception of rail which it allowed to "bump along the bottom".

Network Rail being government owned represents the nationalised side of the UK rail network by way of maintaining and running the track of behalf of the nation which owns that track. Their mismanagement, inefficiency and total budget irresponsibility make them once again a target for huge and justified criticism. No one can target the train operating companies for their failures when those failures fall into cost insignificance as compared to Network Rail.

The above all adds up to the disgusting state of Britain's rail network we find today. However as we so often say in our office at work, “we are where we are” and Britain's railways have to go forward and solve its enormous problems along the way, and before the public patience and its purse runs dry.

Playing the blame game never has solved anything.
Bill

 

[wholbr]

Well I've just read a news report that can't make up it's mind .............

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37941085

....... so if (as the driver claims), he blacked out, then what happened to these systems?

Obviously the driver disablement leaver was never released and therefore the driver must in all probability have been conscious. I read that he has been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter, bailed and released pending the outcome of police and the Health & Safety executive investigations.
Bill

 

[pfx]

I'm still waiting for someone to mention the Scottish Government's desire to take Scotrail back into public custodianship, given Abellio's dismal efforts to date. Thankfully, most of my UK rail travel has been relatively uneventful since the days of the Hatfield rail crash but then I'm not a regular GB rail traveller.

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.

I'm still waiting for someone to mention the Scottish Government's desire to take Scotrail back into public custodianship, given Abellio's dismal efforts to date. Thankfully, most of my UK rail travel has been relatively uneventful since the days of the Hatfield rail crash but then I'm not a regular GB rail traveller.

pfx, great to see you join the thread. I am not sure what is happening in regard to the Scottish government taking scotrail into their ownership. However, without wishing to make the tread in any way political, I believe I would be speaking for the vast majority of English people in stating that we are fed up to the back teeth with the whining attitude of the Scottish government in totally opposing everything the Westminster government proposes over many measures including the Brexit vote. Therefore, if as madam Scotland claims the Scottish people are totally behind her in all matters, then just declare independence AND GO, or to put it bluntly B****R OFF

In regard to Network Rail, I have to agree with you pfx that on taking over from the much discredited Railtrack, they did a wonderful job in the first few of their existence especially in the field of improving safety. However, over the last five years their performance has dropped dramatically with the electrification of the Great Western Mainline debacle being only the tip of a very large iceberg in terms of neglect, financial mismanagement and total incompetence.

In the foregoing, within any private company producing the above problems “heads would have rolled”. That stated, equally, had any private or publicly share owned company produced the financial record that Network Rail has brought forward in the last five years, they would by now be not in existence and justifiably so.

Bill

 

[pfx]

Hi everybody.

pfx, great to see you join the thread. I am not sure what is happening in regard to the Scottish government taking scotrail into their ownership. However, without wishing to make the tread in any way political, I believe I would be speaking for the vast majority of English people in stating that we are fed up to the back teeth with the whining attitude of the Scottish government in totally opposing everything the Westminster government proposes over many measures including the Brexit vote. Therefore, if as madam Scotland claims the Scottish people are totally behind her in all matters, then just declare independence AND GO, or to put it bluntly B****R OFF

Bill,

While I respect the fact you have your own personal political views, I'd be a little more appreciative if you would also respect mine. Without some sort of mandate, I'm not sure how you can state you believe you're speaking for the majority of English people but your reference to the Scottish Government and to, I presume, Nicola Sturgeon is somewhat insulting. As I'm sure you know, the Brexit vote was not endorsed by the majority of Scots which is hardly the fault of the Scottish Government. As for independence, I'm sure if it was simply a case of buggering off that would have happened however, as the majority of Scots did not back such a thing, I'm afraid England will continue to be lumbered with Scotland for the the foreseeable future.

In regard to Network Rail, I have to agree with you pfx that on taking over from the much discredited Railtrack, they did a wonderful job in the first few of their existence especially in the field of improving safety. However, over the last five years their performance has dropped dramatically with the electrification of the Great Western Mainline debacle being only the tip of a very large iceberg in terms of neglect, financial mismanagement and total incompetence.

In the foregoing, within any private company producing the above problems “heads would have rolled”. That stated, equally, had any private or publicly share owned company produced the financial record that Network Rail has brought forward in the last five years, they would by now be not in existence and justifiably so.

Bill

So with politics out of the way, I wasn't referring to Notwork Fail, rather the TOC in Scotland. The Scottish Government is putting in place preparations to award the running of the Scotrail franchise to a public body at the end of the current franchise or should the Abellio contract be terminated. It is by no means definite at this stage but it has been a desire of the Scottish Government to return rail services to the public sector for some time. Whether or not this is a good idea remains to be seen if indeed it happens at all.

Having worked in the public sector, I would agree that there is little in the way of accountability at higher management levels, even when reckless decisions cost millions of pounds. Saying that, many of the private franchises are clearly not working and while travellers are at the front end of the chaos, the money continues to roll in for the franchisees. Perhaps we could form a group and bid for the next franchise that becomes available? It seems an easy way to make money and I could do with some more, that's for sure.

 

[Paulsw2]

However good they may be, I don't recall any of them making an appearance on the SR commuter lines.

Class 442 5WES units based on the Mk3 body shell? One of the most popular EMUs ever!

Paul

 

[amigacooke]

Class 442 5WES units based on the Mk3 body shell? One of the most popular EMUs ever!

Paul

This page suggests they were used on the Bournemouth and Weymouth lines and the Gatwick express. Is this incorrect as it doesn't sound like extensive use was made throughout the SR?