ATLS Anomolies / expert advice requested...

[frogpipe]

So, I have a crossing set up as a "1 or 2 way", and two triggers of course. The crossing in question is on a siding. I find that if I intrude on the trigger on one end of the crossing, and then reverse and go back up the siding, the crossing remains triggered. It won't shut off unless I return to, and pass completely through the crossing. So to recap, enter thru trigger 1/leave thru trigger 1 crossing remains "on"(gates down); enter again thru trigger 1/leave thru trigger 2 crossing toggles to "off" (gates up).

Is this a normal limitation of the ATLS system or am I doing something wrong?

Next is a puzzle of sorts.

(NOTE: This is viewed in Driver, hence no Traffic Stoppers or Triggers or Controller/Slave visible)

Triggers on Tracks A and B are easy, the challenge is C. Here's why.

You can see that Siding 1 joins track C right by the Main St crossing. However, siding 1 is a dead end that leads to a coaling tower and standpipe. (tracks 2 and 3 lead elsewhere and aren't a part of the trackage involved here)

How do I handle this? Trigger on both sides of the crossing on Track C and one on Siding 1? I want the gates to go back up if I back a loco into the Coal/Water siding.

 

[Dermmy]

When you say '2 Triggers of course' I'm not sure if you are using two triggers in total or two triggers each side, ie the 4 trigger system. I use the 4 trigger system and would set that up with the 'inner' triggers between the crossing and the gantry (3 triggers) and the 'outer' triggers pretty much where you have the A B C 1 labels (4 triggers). The fact that the outer and inner triggers do not match up number-wise doesn't matter, the important thing is that no matter how a train approaches the crossing it trips 2 triggers.

Crossings at the end of yards are a bit of an issue for 'accidental' triggering. Reducing the trigger radius from the default 20 to 5 or so will help and there is a driver command you can use to sort out any 'accidental' trigger-tripping and reset the count to '0'...

 

[frogpipe]

By 2 triggers I meant that I was using the 2 trigger mode and not the 4 trigger mode...

Pretending that Track A and B aren't there, your suggestion seems to indicate that it's ok to have 2 triggers on one side of the crossing and one trigger on the other.

===Trig 1=====\\ <-turnout
===Trig 2=================[CROSSING]=======Trig 3=====

I wasn't sure if this was ok or not... I am concerned that if a train comes in over Trig 2 and the backs up over Trig 1 the gates won't go up.... I certainly found that crossing over Trig 2, stopping, and then leaving over Trig 2 doesn't raise the gates.

I wasn't aware that there was a trigger radius to set on the ATLS triggers, so I'll have to investigate that tomorrow.

 

[Dermmy]

You are always going to have an issue with switching moves over a crossing, though the two-trigger method may be less of an issue. The problem is having the triggers far enough back that a high speed train lets the gates close, but then a switcher has to run 1/2 a mile past the junction before reversing. This is where the Driver Command comes in handy, you can 'create' any extra trigger hits required to open/close the gates.

I have only used two-trigger in a couple of places, but i can't see why two triggers on one side and one on the other where there is a junction wouldn't work. AFAIK the system only counts trigger hits on a given channel, it doesn't care where those 'hits' came from. I use the 4-trigger method mostly, but I do have 11 triggers on one channel covering a multi-track/junction infested crossing and it's all good

 

[boat]

Hi Guys,

As Dermmy says, reducing the 'trigger radius' might help here.

The system expects a train to go through a trigger on approach to the crossing.... and go through a second trigger after its exit from the crossing. (For the 2 Trig System).

When a train 'Enters' the first trigger it sends a message to the Controller to close the gates (for cars). When it 'Leaves' that first Trigger nothing appears to happen but the Controller is notified for its calculations. When the same train 'Enters' a second trigger, (or indeed the same trigger again), it's entry is ignored.... but the crossing gates will open when it 'Leaves' that second (or same) Trigger. Also on the second 'Leave', the controller will 'clear' that train as finished with the crossing so the sequence will start again the next time that train returns.

If you are 'intruding' on the Trigger then you will start the sequence by your 'enter' but if you don't go back far enough you will never 'leave' the first Trigger. If you need to go through Trigger2 to get the crossing to clear then that's probably what's happening. But even if you do go back far enough to 'leave' you will still have problems because when you take the train out again, it will see Trigger1 as its second trigger.... and open the gates to road traffic.

A solution might be to add another trigger on the entrance to the siding so the shunting train would cross a second trigger and clear down. But the train would have to 'enter' and 'leave' both triggers. A train 'enters' a triggers as soon as the front of the train hits the outer radius of the trigger but its won't 'leave' until the end of the train crosses the trailing edge of the trigger radius. However, if you stop the train on the trigger, and reverse, you should get a 'leave' pulse as the front of the train reverses away from the trigger radius. So that should fool it. (You might also do something with an ATLS Driver Command)

A trigger is not a single point. It has an invisible radius around it which can be set in Surveyor. The default is 20 meters, so playing with this might help.

I did not include any Radius setting instructions with ATLS as it normally isn't that important. But as it happens, it is very important with my ASB Turnout Kit. In the pdf Tutorial for that, there is information and instructions on setting the trigger radius. The ASB Turnout Kit is payware but the Tutorial can be downloaded from my website for free. Click on the banner below and go down to the Tutorial section. Download the 'Full' version and you will find info on Trigger Radius on page 4. It is generic info so will be fine with ATLS too.

Hope that helps,

Boat

 

[frogpipe]

Ok I'll check that out....

Any ideas about the following carz issuzes?

As seen in Driver and Surveyor - see the Blue car in the first pic? It stopped on the tracks and just sits there.

I also get cars that the driver falls asleep waiting for gates OR traffic lights. I have to alt-tab out and back to trainz to wake them up.... (I read this also in a thread, but i can't find it now...)

That blue car however seems to be abandonded as the Alt-tab trick does not affect him...

 

[Dermmy]

Move your stoppers closer together, centering them over the two outside tracks. You have to keep the distance between the two stoppers as narrow as possible. If the crossing is set up for two-trigger operation I might be moving the triggers out a bit. If they are the inner triggers for four-trigger operation they are fine where they are....

 

[frogpipe]

Ok, I'll try moving the stoppers - those triggers you can see are "inner" triggers for a 4 trigger setup.

I might be off my rocker, but it seems to me that what we need for yards is a proximity trigger (esp now that I know you can change the trigger radius). What I'm thinking of is a setting where you use ONE proximity trigger and place it in the middle of the crossing. Any train get's within it's "sphere of influence" (trigger radius) and the gate goes down.

What do you think?

 

[boat]

Ok, I'll try moving the stoppers - those triggers you can see are "inner" triggers for a 4 trigger setup.

I might be off my rocker, but it seems to me that what we need for yards is a proximity trigger (esp now that I know you can change the trigger radius). What I'm thinking of is a setting where you use ONE proximity trigger and place it in the middle of the crossing. Any train get's within it's "sphere of influence" (trigger radius) and the gate goes down.

What do you think?

Fine if you never want the gate to go up again. See my earlier post ref counting Triggers.

For your stuck car, you can also add a road spline point in the middle. See ATLS Tutorials, Traffic Stopper.

Boat

 

[stagecoach]

You could use the priority to allow for the shunting. Use the driver command to alter engine to priority 3 and set the trigger not to respond to priority 3. The engine can pass the trigger without activation. Just change engine priority back or use one of the ATLS driver commands when you wish to depart. As you are passing a trigger into a siding set the trigger not to respond to priority 3 and make sure that your train is set to priority 3 before it arrives at the trigger. It will pass into the siding without activation of the crossing.

 

[stagecoach]

A demo of some various uses of the ATLS can be found HERE . I created it using as many different ways that i could think of. It uses a siding next to a crossing as well as trains stopping at a station next to the crossing. Some trains activate and others dont.

 

[frogpipe]

I'm grabbing that and I'll take a look at it when I get a chance later. (suddenly I realize what a dope I was for NOT looking for a route to download showing how this all works back when I was first trying to learn it....) Oh well...

As to the proximity trigger - I read your counting trigger post, this would take a chunk of code to simulate the triggers "firing", but I have no idea if it's possible or not, as I haven't looked at the code. It was just a "concept" idea really.

 

[stagecoach]

Just got my new computer up working and putting trainz back on. Been without it all year. You will need to download some things from the dls, but ive been told it is all there.