A question about speedboards in the US

[Pendolino]

I understand that engineers have perfect knowledge of the maximum allowed speed for a given track section from the employee timetables and from onboard equipment (if installed). I wonder, however, if there is some kind of "advance warning" speedboard located before the actual speedboard marking the initial point of a track section with lower allowed speed. I have searched on the Internet, but I found no trace of such a sign: can someone from the U.S. shed some light on this issue?

Thanks in advance.

 

[BN1970]

Carlo
Speedboards here on the BN when I worked for them would be a rectangular board with the speed posted on it. The "advance" speed board with the rectangle placed diagonally with the upcoming speed posted on it would be placed 2 miles ahead of the main speedboard, to warn of the impending speed reduction.

 

[wva-usa]

Some railroads used "reduce speed" signs. The following is from the 1969 B&O/C&O Operating Rules:


Yellow circular sign w/ speed limits

NAME: REDUCE SPEED
INDICATION: REDUCE TO SPEED INDICATED BY SIGN

The Reduce Speed Sign is circular, 24 inches in diameter, with speed limit shown in black figures on a yellow background.

When two speed limits are shown on sign, the higher limit is for passenger trains and the lower limit for freight trains.

These signs will be located alongside the track on the Engineer's side and govern the movement of trains into territory of reduced speed. They will be placed far enough in advance of the point at which the reduced speed becomes effective to permit reduction from maximum authorized speed to the reduced speed as specified on the sign and will apply to trains moving into the reduced speed territory on any track.


Trains exceeding the speed specified by the sign must reduce speed immediately when passing sign.

 

[ctclark1]

I think more recently most Class I railroads in the US use speedboards similar to that which BN mentioned, although it would not surprise me if some, especially Class II or lower do not at all and rely on the engineers to know the territory, as they are tested to do. I have never worked for one so I don't know for sure.

Back in the day it was more varied from railroad to railroad, so in reality an answer would depend on what era, region, or even railroad you are looking at. Keep in mind that from what I've read of TT's, there was a MAS for the entire (sub)division and then occasional areas where this was reduced, either permenantly or temporarily.

As an example, the New York Central used those rectangular boards at an angle as mentioned by BN as the warning sign, placed ahead of the restricted area as determined by the braking profile of the track, and then simply a Yellow circle to indicate the beginning of the actual speed restriction. There would then simply be a green circle at the end of the speed restriction indicating maximum TT speed only, without typically stating what this speed is. The same applied for temporary restrictions, except the advance sign was square, the restriction sign was a yellow diamond with an "S" and the return to MAS was a green square with a "R".
http://www.multimodalways.org/docs/...C/NYC Standard Plans/NYC EC J-4 1-17-1963.pdf
http://www.multimodalways.org/docs/...lans/NYC Temporary Speed Boards 5-23-1956.pdf

For the record, MMW is a great resource for many US railroads, primarily Northeastern, but it contains a variety of information for a number of them - track charts, timetables, ETTs, plans, yard diagrams, etc. I've been known to spend hours on there just reading.

 

[cascaderailroad]

On the steep Saluda grade, the train would stop before the summit, and the division Trainmaster would board the lead engine, and take over control of the engineers seat and man the control stand ... at the bottom of the grade the Trainmaster would get off the train, and hitch a ride back up to the summit, either on an uphill train, or by RR taxi. Only the division Trainmaster was trained enough to exactly know when the train slack would run in, and at what locations to apply brakes.

 

[MeowRailroad]

It is annoying how in trainz you are driving, you pass a speedboard for a lower speed, it goes into effect immediately. You pass a higher speed, you have to wait for the whole train to pass it.

 

[cascaderailroad]

I rarely drive AI, so speedboards really don't affect me (AI does not exist in real RR's).

I like to place (unprototypical) editable named: "Sign 12BRLM" beside the track that says: "Station Name, Junction Name, Reduce Speed" 2 miles, 1 mile, 1/2 mile ... so it gives me a heads up warning to slow down

 

[BN1970]

"It is annoying how in trainz you are driving, you pass a speedboard for a lower speed, it goes into effect immediately. You pass a higher speed, you have to wait for the whole train to pass it."

That is because your remaining train is still in the speed restriction when your locomotive passes the higher speedboard. It stands to reason that you must get all your train off the previous slower restriction before being able to speed up.

 

[oknotsen]

It is annoying how in trainz you are driving, you pass a speedboard for a lower speed, it goes into effect immediately. You pass a higher speed, you have to wait for the whole train to pass it.

I don't see what is annoying about the trainz part of it. Isn't this also how the rules are in real life (and as a result fitting for a simulator)?

In real life you know when the sign shows up (so when to slow down ahead of time) and you know the length of your train, so know when you can start speeding up again. In game you can "fake" this by adding a HUD to the session so you don't have to learn the map by head.

 

[jordon412]

That is because your remaining train is still in the speed restriction when your locomotive passes the higher speedboard. It stands to reason that you must get all your train off the previous slower restriction before being able to speed up.

In the real world, when will you know that your entire train has passed the speedboard and it was time to start speeding up?

 

[norfolksouthern37]

either you have done it enough to know or you use the locomotive's distance counter in the cab.

 

[MeowRailroad]

I know it is realistic, but it is annoying.

 

[ctclark1]

I rarely drive AI, so speedboards really don't affect me (AI does not exist in real RR's).

No, but unless you work on a short-line or regional that only has one crew, (Take for example, the nearby Arcade and Attica that operates the entire length under Yard Limit Rule 31) it's not really "real" that you would never see another operating train in your travels. And it's also not "real" that you would somehow jump between trains operating all of them (unless, I suppose, you have a TARDIS), so the AI has to come into play somewhere along the way, right?

 

[Pendolino]

Hello all,


thanks you all - especially BN1970, wva-usa and ctclark1 - for the replies: I imagined that "advance" speedboards should exist, especially given the sheer size of U.S. trains, but I have never been able to see a picture or drawing of one.


I am especially interested in Union Pacific speedboards: the UP website has many useful drawings of mileposts and other trackside signage, but unfortunately there are no speedboards. Do UP use the same speedboards used by BNSF? I saw they standardised many pieces of equipment (turnouts, to name one).
I also tried searching for sign manufacturers websites, which have often been a great source of drawings, but I found none. Can someone indicate at least some pictures of UP speedboards (either normal and "advance" ones)?


P.S. the MMW website is extremely interesting, thanks for reporting it!

 

[RacerTodd]

I couldn't find a good photo of a BNSF speedboard, but I did find a set in one of the videos that I've posted on YouTube. Look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju4GZsuSPd0

At about 30 seconds into the video, you'll see a set of BNSF speedboards on the right side of the track.

"T" is the limit for Talgo passenger trains, "P" is the limit for regular passenger trains and "F" is the limit for freight trains. The white "W" below is a whistleboard, which tells the engineer to sound the horn for a crossing.

For the advance version, all three individual boards are canted left at a 45-degree angle.

Todd

 

[ctclark1]

Glad you specified the T for Talgo, I would've suggested "Trailvan" - which is what Conrail called intermodals. I'm not sure if the actual speedboards ever showed the difference, but the timetables would show P, TV, and F speeds. CSX over the same territory now specifies P, IM, and F.

 

[RacerTodd]

Found a photo of the "advance" version of a BNSF speedboard. The "18" stand for Milepost 18.

 

[BN1970]

Yes...and the yellow over red flag is placed there to warn train crews that they will find a red flag 2 miles ahead that they will have to stop for.

 

[MeowRailroad]

Is a red flag basically like a temporary red signal?