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4-4-2 Atlantic?
- Thread starter sniper297
- Start date
No, that is totally wrong. The copyright exists without any statement to the fact in the license whether one is included or not. You must ask permission.
It's up to Bill to enforce any rights he has if he so desires. I can't act for him. Normally if a content creator allows people to reskin or reuse his meshes and textures he states so in the license. Absense of any statement does not imply or indicate it is permissible.
I think you better ask before going any further.
Bob Pearson
It's up to Bill to enforce any rights he has if he so desires. I can't act for him. Normally if a content creator allows people to reskin or reuse his meshes and textures he states so in the license. Absense of any statement does not imply or indicate it is permissible.
I think you better ask before going any further.
Bob Pearson
I got a better idea, why don't I just quit uploading stuff altogether? It's a hobby, not a job. Someone wants to sue me there are zillions of precedents for freeware that say if there's no EULA then permission to modify and redistribute is implied by the absence of any statement to the contrary. Honestly, if all the lawyer wannabees would stay the hell off the internet we would have a lot more freeware to play with. I'll see you in court.
If I wanted to be asked, I would include a license saying effectively "no modification, reskins, or distribution without permission". When I see those I abide by them, when I don't see any license I still make sure to give credit to the original author just because it's a nice thing to do and don't take much time. I even went out of my way to upload a new KUID2 version of a cabview after discovering that I cloned from a reskin that did not credit the original creator, so the first version I credited the reskinner by mistake, corrected it in the update. Did all that on my own, nobody else called me on it.
Again, for me this is a hobby, not a job - I am not getting paid for this, I'm sharing my work freely. If I see a restrictive EULA I delete that asset and never use it, the only time I ever modify or reskin anything with any kind of EULA is when I know the guy who made it and I know he's not a weenie about permissions.
The whole issue of "conditionware" and "restrictionware" is fairly simple - if you can't stand to see your baby abused, keep it at home. Freeware means free.
I'm not REQUIRED to share anything I make, I do it to contribute back to people who share with me, that's the whole point of trainsimming communities. If people are gonna pile a bunch of bureaucratic BS on me, they better be willing to pay me big greasy wads of US currency since I refuse to deal with that crap for free.
Again, for me this is a hobby, not a job - I am not getting paid for this, I'm sharing my work freely. If I see a restrictive EULA I delete that asset and never use it, the only time I ever modify or reskin anything with any kind of EULA is when I know the guy who made it and I know he's not a weenie about permissions.
The whole issue of "conditionware" and "restrictionware" is fairly simple - if you can't stand to see your baby abused, keep it at home. Freeware means free.
I'm not REQUIRED to share anything I make, I do it to contribute back to people who share with me, that's the whole point of trainsimming communities. If people are gonna pile a bunch of bureaucratic BS on me, they better be willing to pay me big greasy wads of US currency since I refuse to deal with that crap for free.
Sorry you feel like that, sniper. This is a hobby for most of us - certainly for me it is. And I'm not a lawyer or a lawyer wanabe.
This hobby has rules that most of us play by. Asking for and obtaining permission to modify and redistribute copyrighted material before we do it is one of them. Absence of an EULA as you call it has nothing to do with that requirement.
If you want to take your marbles and run home, well I won't stop you. But there's no need too.
If you want to make a lot of money by charging hugh fees for reskinning other peoples work without permission, then you may be in for a lot more than just a discussion on the forums here.
I only suggested you ask permission before you redistribute anything. You seem to take that pretty hard. I can't force you to do anything. In fact as I said in the post above copyright enforcement lies with the owner of the copyright.
What's so difficult in asking permission from the owner of the content?
Bob Pearson
This hobby has rules that most of us play by. Asking for and obtaining permission to modify and redistribute copyrighted material before we do it is one of them. Absence of an EULA as you call it has nothing to do with that requirement.
If you want to take your marbles and run home, well I won't stop you. But there's no need too.
If you want to make a lot of money by charging hugh fees for reskinning other peoples work without permission, then you may be in for a lot more than just a discussion on the forums here.
I only suggested you ask permission before you redistribute anything. You seem to take that pretty hard. I can't force you to do anything. In fact as I said in the post above copyright enforcement lies with the owner of the copyright.
What's so difficult in asking permission from the owner of the content?
Bob Pearson
You're misinterpreting the law and "rules that most of us play by". I've been reskinning for MSTS and railsim/railworks for 10 years, out of hundreds of those there were only a dozen or so that had a EULA. On the ones with a EULA I asked permission before starting, the ones without a EULA I did not. I suspect that's common practice in Trainz as well, the reskins I've downloaded rarely ever say anything about "reskinned with permission". I currently have 211 assets on the download station, 3 of those had a restrictive EULA and I asked permission to reskin and upload (I've known the guy from other trainsims for years), the rest I never asked permission because they had no license. If YOU want to run around asking permission when permission is already granted by implied consent, knock yourself out. Just don't try to get the whole world marching to your drumbeat.
Well Jim, I think you are misinterpreting the law. Copyright exists as soon as the creation is made, whether it's inconvenient or not. Of course if someone grants permission to alter and release, then there's no problem. Absent that though, permission should be sought.
I respect that you've done this for many years and that you aren't trying to be difficult, and you're giving back and sharing and all that, but the facts are what they are. No one is trying to 'lawyer up' on you, and I don't know how they do things with other railsims, sites or forums, but the one rule we have always tried to follow here is to respect a creator's content. Sometimes mistakes are made and misunderstandings abound, but generally items are not released without written consent from the mesh creator.
I hope you come to terms with your frustration, I would hate to see you give in.
I respect that you've done this for many years and that you aren't trying to be difficult, and you're giving back and sharing and all that, but the facts are what they are. No one is trying to 'lawyer up' on you, and I don't know how they do things with other railsims, sites or forums, but the one rule we have always tried to follow here is to respect a creator's content. Sometimes mistakes are made and misunderstandings abound, but generally items are not released without written consent from the mesh creator.
I hope you come to terms with your frustration, I would hate to see you give in.
"but the one rule we have always tried to follow here is to respect a creator's content"
Who's "We"? 99% of the reskins on the download station don't have any license or any "reskinned with permission" statements, so why are you guys annoying me specifically with your imaginary rules and regulations?
Who's "We"? 99% of the reskins on the download station don't have any license or any "reskinned with permission" statements, so why are you guys annoying me specifically with your imaginary rules and regulations?
"but the one rule we have always tried to follow here is to respect a creator's content"
Who's "We"? 99% of the reskins on the download station don't have any license or any "reskinned with permission" statements, so why are you guys annoying me specifically with your imaginary rules and regulations?
I suspect that you're not going to make a lot of points with creators with your attitude toward their work and your perceived lack of a license. I've stated this before in quite a few threads on this subject, but here goes again. I've dealt with copyrights for over 30 years and whether you like to believe it or not, a copyright is created at the instant something new is created. No written license or copyright is required by law for the copyright to take effect or remain in effect. We can't help how you've been doing it, but wrong is always wrong. I used to deal with a lot of contractors that would often tell me "I've been doing it that way for 20 years" and my reply was always "Well, you've been doing it wrong for 20 years".
We're all glad that you are willing to share your talents, but is it really that hard to ask permission from the creator? It's just the right thing to do. Also, we're not trying to annoy you specifically, we're just trying to point out the proper answer for all of those reading this thread.
Mike
Sniper, you've posted a lot on the forums recently about ethics, licensing and copyright issues so I know you're aware of these things. I know you've also uploaded a lot of content to the DLS. So you've read or should have read the license agreement that is part of the DLS upload process.
When you upload content to the DLS you enter into a legal agreement with N3V/Auran and stipulate a number of things as part of that agreement.
One part in particular bears directly on the issue discussed above, part number 3(b). Which states you warrant that the uploaded works "do not infringe any copyright, patent, trademark or other intellectual property rights of any person".
Without asking and getting permission how could you possibly make such a warranty?
Bob Pearson
When you upload content to the DLS you enter into a legal agreement with N3V/Auran and stipulate a number of things as part of that agreement.
One part in particular bears directly on the issue discussed above, part number 3(b). Which states you warrant that the uploaded works "do not infringe any copyright, patent, trademark or other intellectual property rights of any person".
Without asking and getting permission how could you possibly make such a warranty?
Bob Pearson
I fail to understand why you think this is so complicated - for freeware, if you do NOT want people modifying without asking permission, add a EULA to that effect. If you don't want people constantly bothering you for permission, leave it out. If you can't be bothered to add an actual license or copyright statement to your content, I can't be bothered to try to hunt you down to ask permission to modify and/or reskin.
I fail to understand why you think this is so complicated - for freeware, if you do NOT want people modifying without asking permission, add a EULA to that effect. If you don't want people constantly bothering you for permission, leave it out. If you can't be bothered to add an actual license or copyright statement to your content, I can't be bothered to try to hunt you down to ask permission to modify and/or reskin.
You've got the freeware thing all wrong. It's free to download. It's not free to do with what you want and redistribute. I don't know where the got the idea otherwise. Also, creators don't have to put a license in if they don't want to. Their copyright already protects their property. If you had ever spent hundreds of hours creating something, I believe that you'd want your property protected and at the very least, the common courtesy of being asked for permission. It's my opinion that your attitude is one of the reasons that some of our best creators are leaning against creation, or at least not uploading their content to the DLS. Of course, there's a few other reasons also. I'm not trying to attack you, I just fail to follow your logic. There's no legal or moral basis to it.
Mike
Retro00064
New member
Sniper, please do not confuse the terms "freeware" and "free software". The terms do sound similar, but there is a difference. "Free software" is software that is both "free" as in "free of charge" and "free" as in "freedom", in that it is distributed under a free software license, i. e. a license that grants the end-user permission to modify, redistribute, build-upon, etc., without direct contact with the copyright holder for permission, but possibly with a few simple restrictions such as crediting the original author, sharing alike (i. e. distributing your modified work under the same or a similar license to the one of the original work), etc., which are simple and small restrictions that should not be much of a problem for most people.
However, the term "freeware" is software that is "free" as in "free of charge", but is usually distributed under a restrictive (i. e. "non-free") license, restricting the user's right to modify, redistribute, build-upon, etc., the original work, in contrast to "free software". That is, "freeware" is software that is usually only "free" as in "free of charge", and not "free" as in "freedom".
I encourage you to read the Wikipedia article on freeware, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeware, and notice how the article discussed the contrast between freeware and free software.
The comments here that are directed at you here were posted here for your own good, to help prevent you from being jumped on by an angry content creator, whether now or in the future. That is it. Ever heard of the old saying "better to be safe than sorry"?
I do believe that it would be better if all creators who have non-free copyright restrictions on their works would state that explicitly in a license, to make it clear to end-users that their works are protected by copyright as such, so that any ambiguity in the copyright holders' restricitions on their works is prevented, but with it being the case that not all creators do so, it is better to be safe than sorry and ask the original creator for permission.
Our comments are not putting down your reskinning work; they are simply intended to teach you about copyright properly so that you do not get yourself into trouble.
And just because "99%" of the reskins on the Download Station do not show any indication of retrieving permission from the original creator to release the reskin, does not mean that the people who released those reskins were doing the right thing. That 99% of reskins on the DLS could very well all be copyright violations. If everyone in my town except me smoked and drank alcohol, would that mean that it would be okay for me to do so also? No.
Kind regards,
Retro00064.
However, the term "freeware" is software that is "free" as in "free of charge", but is usually distributed under a restrictive (i. e. "non-free") license, restricting the user's right to modify, redistribute, build-upon, etc., the original work, in contrast to "free software". That is, "freeware" is software that is usually only "free" as in "free of charge", and not "free" as in "freedom".
I encourage you to read the Wikipedia article on freeware, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeware, and notice how the article discussed the contrast between freeware and free software.
The comments here that are directed at you here were posted here for your own good, to help prevent you from being jumped on by an angry content creator, whether now or in the future. That is it. Ever heard of the old saying "better to be safe than sorry"?
I do believe that it would be better if all creators who have non-free copyright restrictions on their works would state that explicitly in a license, to make it clear to end-users that their works are protected by copyright as such, so that any ambiguity in the copyright holders' restricitions on their works is prevented, but with it being the case that not all creators do so, it is better to be safe than sorry and ask the original creator for permission.
Our comments are not putting down your reskinning work; they are simply intended to teach you about copyright properly so that you do not get yourself into trouble.
And just because "99%" of the reskins on the Download Station do not show any indication of retrieving permission from the original creator to release the reskin, does not mean that the people who released those reskins were doing the right thing. That 99% of reskins on the DLS could very well all be copyright violations. If everyone in my town except me smoked and drank alcohol, would that mean that it would be okay for me to do so also? No.
Kind regards,
Retro00064.
Last edited:
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