2 UP Freight Trains Collide in Arkansas
- Thread starter davesnow
- Start date
- Status
cascaderailroad
New member
Kinda' makes one sit back and ponder ... "Why do we all like trains so much anyway" ?
This is the 2nd head on UP wreck this year, in the general area.
This is the 2nd head on UP wreck this year, in the general area.
Last edited:
That's sad news and I feel for the crew and their families. The head-on could be caused by many things including a dispatcher error, signal fault, or even a crew error such as not seeing the signals. Since the accident has occurred in an area where other accidents have occurred in the past, then I wonder if there is something wrong with the track layout such as a signal sighting problem.
The biggest problem, however, will be the news media. They'll play this up as the worst accident in decades and how bad trains are.
John
The biggest problem, however, will be the news media. They'll play this up as the worst accident in decades and how bad trains are.
John
All the reports I have seen in the press and online about the Arkansas accident have been factual and straightforward, not sensational at all.
"If the newspapers of a country are filled with good news, the jails of that country will be filled with good people."
-- Daniel Moynihan
Last edited:
Hi Everybody.
John, can I join you in expressing my condolences to the family and friends of the deceased and injured train crew.
With regard to similar accidents occurring in the same area in the past, then I agree with you that something would seem to be very wrong indeed. Whenever an accident investigation is carried out the preliminary enquiry usually brings forward temporary increased safety practices and procedures almost immediately to prevent similar incidents.
Following the foregoing, the root cause investigation then looks into all aspects of the incident and then brings forward a new totally encompassing safety regime so as to eliminate permanently the possibility of similar accidents in the future.
With the above in mind, even if the full root cause investigation has not been concluded into the previous incidents, surely some increased safety regime should have been place from previous preliminary investigations that should have prevented this accident occurring. As stated, it does seem in that light that somebody somewhere has fallen down very badly on this one.
Incidentally the above is not just my opinion as we were discussing this in the office earlier on. It would seem that one of the insurance companies we do investigations for could take a big hit on this one as it was on one of the insurance industries internal general circuit emails/newsletter this morning.
[FONT="]Bill[/FONT]
John, can I join you in expressing my condolences to the family and friends of the deceased and injured train crew.
With regard to similar accidents occurring in the same area in the past, then I agree with you that something would seem to be very wrong indeed. Whenever an accident investigation is carried out the preliminary enquiry usually brings forward temporary increased safety practices and procedures almost immediately to prevent similar incidents.
Following the foregoing, the root cause investigation then looks into all aspects of the incident and then brings forward a new totally encompassing safety regime so as to eliminate permanently the possibility of similar accidents in the future.
With the above in mind, even if the full root cause investigation has not been concluded into the previous incidents, surely some increased safety regime should have been place from previous preliminary investigations that should have prevented this accident occurring. As stated, it does seem in that light that somebody somewhere has fallen down very badly on this one.
Incidentally the above is not just my opinion as we were discussing this in the office earlier on. It would seem that one of the insurance companies we do investigations for could take a big hit on this one as it was on one of the insurance industries internal general circuit emails/newsletter this morning.
[FONT="]Bill[/FONT]
Last edited:
norfolksouthern37
what's a normal map?
How can you make this determination based on what little information is available?
There were no similar accidents in the same area in the past - at least recent past, that would warrant a connection to this other than the obvious further development of railroad technology. Do I know when the last wreck was on this line in Hoxie, Ar? No I don't, but I couldn't find any similar reported incidents even in the same state looking back far as 1967. FWIW, the line is ex MP and CTC controlled for about 40 years now.
Just what does it mean to you who say its in the same area as other accidents?
UP had a collision in 2012 in Goodwell, Oklahoma, about 700 miles away. For you UK folks, that is about the length of your entire country top to bottom. it would be quite a stretch to say it is the 'same area'.
Last edited:
cascaderailroad
New member
I probably could look up all UP derailments since 1967, and there would be 100's of thousands (minor to major) and possibly well over a million ... and head on collisions since 1967 there has to be hundreds of catastrophic incidents.
The saftey record of RR's is not all that great ... and there are lots of cover ups, where facts and incidents are hidden and swept away under a heavy wool rug, never to see the light of investigation ... RR's are the most corrupt monopoly, where many incidents are kept hush hush.
The saftey record of RR's is not all that great ... and there are lots of cover ups, where facts and incidents are hidden and swept away under a heavy wool rug, never to see the light of investigation ... RR's are the most corrupt monopoly, where many incidents are kept hush hush.
norfolksouthern37
what's a normal map?
Sorry, you are just misinformed - more likely, making up your own facts about things.
cascaderailroad
New member
Sorry ... Your just a "Foamer" ... you didn't see the reports, so they don't exist, so just don't look at all the millions of accident incidents that happened just on UP alone since 1967 ... I suggest you look deeper into their accident reports to find out just how many millions of minor to major derailments they have had since 1967.
Are you telling me that UP has had a near perfect head on train wreck history since 1967 ... and that there is nothing to worry about, nothing to see ... move along now ... and while your at it, gather up the millions of pages of UP accident/incidents since 1967 ...OMG ... How blind are railfans ???
We sure love our twains, don't we ... and will "foam" at the mouth, to defend their beloved corrupt RR ... acting as if it is an insult to our own mother ... when someone points something out, it is a fact that RR's are unsafe, and are getting worse.
"How dare someone" ... say something and defile my beloved Union Pacific Railroad ...
Are you telling me that UP has had a near perfect head on train wreck history since 1967 ... and that there is nothing to worry about, nothing to see ... move along now ... and while your at it, gather up the millions of pages of UP accident/incidents since 1967 ...OMG ... How blind are railfans ???
We sure love our twains, don't we ... and will "foam" at the mouth, to defend their beloved corrupt RR ... acting as if it is an insult to our own mother ... when someone points something out, it is a fact that RR's are unsafe, and are getting worse.
"How dare someone" ... say something and defile my beloved Union Pacific Railroad ...
Last edited:
ryanstrains
Moderator
Hello, please try to not bend facts in order to sway a debate in your favor unless you have data that you can provide to back up these claims. Also, let's try not to turn this into a fight over corrupt railroads, let's have some respect for the crew members who were killed in the crash and keep this civil.
Perhaps Cascade has some proof/sources/facts to bring to the table and back up his claims? Problem solved. Otherwise he has been known to spread disinformation so you'll have to excuse some skepticism, Ryan, towards bold claims like "100's of thousands of accidents since 1967".
Fun Fake Fact: If there were exactly 100,000 accidents on UP since 1967, this works out to be 5 accidents per day!
Fun Fake Fact: If there were exactly 100,000 accidents on UP since 1967, this works out to be 5 accidents per day!
cascaderailroad
New member
There is a minor to major derailment (in the US) every 7 minutes, 24-7-365 ... Since 1967 ... You do the math !
Last edited:
Here are some actual statistics from the NTSB.... www.ntsb.gov
http://www.ntsb.gov/data/index.html (They pie chart with illegible numbers on it!)
[TD="colspan: 5"]The downloaded text (word doc) which I saved you from downloading...
2011–2012 U.S. Transportation Fatalities
[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 5"]1 Numbers for 2012 are preliminary estimates. Aviation data are from the NTSB; marine data are from the U.S.
Department of Homeland Security; all other data are from the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT).
2 Includes bicycles or other cycles.
3 Includes vehicle non-occupants other than pedestrians and occupant fatalities in other vehicle types, such as farm or construction equipment.
4 Grade crossing fatalities are not counted as a separate category for determining the grand total because they are included in the highway and rail categories, as appropriate.
5 Data reported to Federal Rail Administration (FRA).
6 Includes persons on railroad property without permission (trespassers) and with permission, such as repair personnel (nontrespassers). Does not include motor vehicle occupants killed at grade crossings.
7 Data reported to Federal Transit Administration (FTA). Fatalities for commuter rail operations may also be reported to the FRA and may be included in the intercity railroad fatalities.
8 Refers to operational fatalities.
9 Includes non-U.S. registered aircraft involved in accidents in the United States.
[/TD]
http://www.ntsb.gov/data/index.html (They pie chart with illegible numbers on it!)
| | | 2011 | 2012 | |
| Passenger cars | | 12,014 | 12,271 | |
| Light trucks and vans | | 9,302 | 9,396 | |
| Pedestrians | | 4,457 | 4,743 | |
| Motorcycles | | 4,630 | 4,957 | |
| Pedalcycles2 | | 682 | 726 | |
| Medium and heavy trucks | | 640 | 697 | |
| Buses | | 55 | 39 | |
| Other3 | | 699 | 732 | |
| Total, Highway | | 32,479 | 33,561 | |
| | | | | |
| | | (250) | (233) | |
| | | | | |
| Intercity5— | | | | |
| Trespassers and nontrespassers6 | | 497 | 509 | |
| Employees and contractors | | 24 | 19 | |
| Passengers | | 6 | 5 | |
| Transit7— | | | | |
| Light, heavy, and commuter rail | | 230 | 270 | |
| Total, Rail | | 757 | 803 | |
| | | | | |
| Recreational boating | | 758 | 651 | |
| Cargo transport | | 10 | 9 | |
| Commercial fishing8 | | 27 | 33 | |
| Commercial passengers | | 8 | 13 | |
| Total, Marine | | 803 | 706 | |
| | | | | |
| General aviation | | 448 | 432 | |
| Airlines | | 0 | 0 | |
| Air taxi | | 41 | 15 | |
| Commuter | | 0 | 0 | |
| Foreign/unregistered9 | | 9 | 2 | |
| Total, Aviation | | 498 | 449 | |
| | | | | |
| Gas | | 13 | 9 | |
| Liquids | | 1 | 3 | |
| Total, Pipeline | | 14 | 12 | |
| | | | | |
| Total | | 34,551 | 35,531 | |
[TD="colspan: 5"]The downloaded text (word doc) which I saved you from downloading...
2011–2012 U.S. Transportation Fatalities
[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 5"]1 Numbers for 2012 are preliminary estimates. Aviation data are from the NTSB; marine data are from the U.S.
Department of Homeland Security; all other data are from the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT).
2 Includes bicycles or other cycles.
3 Includes vehicle non-occupants other than pedestrians and occupant fatalities in other vehicle types, such as farm or construction equipment.
4 Grade crossing fatalities are not counted as a separate category for determining the grand total because they are included in the highway and rail categories, as appropriate.
5 Data reported to Federal Rail Administration (FRA).
6 Includes persons on railroad property without permission (trespassers) and with permission, such as repair personnel (nontrespassers). Does not include motor vehicle occupants killed at grade crossings.
7 Data reported to Federal Transit Administration (FTA). Fatalities for commuter rail operations may also be reported to the FRA and may be included in the intercity railroad fatalities.
8 Refers to operational fatalities.
9 Includes non-U.S. registered aircraft involved in accidents in the United States.
[/TD]
Thank you, John. Very insightful. And since UP only handles freight, it falls into this category:
Which, may I point out also includes all other US railroads and not just UP. Annually.
An derailment every 7 seconds? I'm surprised the US economy hasn't been run into the ground yet - pun intended.
Seriously though Cascade, you can't back up a nonsense claim with another nonsense claim and call it "fact", sorry.
Which, may I point out also includes all other US railroads and not just UP. Annually.
An derailment every 7 seconds? I'm surprised the US economy hasn't been run into the ground yet - pun intended.
Seriously though Cascade, you can't back up a nonsense claim with another nonsense claim and call it "fact", sorry.
cascaderailroad
New member
I am not going to waste my time with researching just how many thousands of Head-On train wrecks there have been in the last 47 years, in the US since 1967 ... The data is just not readily available on Google.
But if you want a shock ... Go right ahead, and tally up the Head-On train wrecks in the US since 1967.
Oh ... Thats right ... It just doesn't really happen ... and in your eyes, there have been NONE ... ZERO ???
But if you want a shock ... Go right ahead, and tally up the Head-On train wrecks in the US since 1967.
Oh ... Thats right ... It just doesn't really happen ... and in your eyes, there have been NONE ... ZERO ???
Last edited:
norfolksouthern37
what's a normal map?
yea okay... and please tell me what you are.
No. I suggest you do that. why is 1967 suddenly important to you?
No.
No. Again, why don't you gather them. I don't really see how it is relevant to this topic. But if you do in fact gather all of the reports I would like to see them
I think you are in the wrong thread, but looking at your other posts, it almost always seems that way. Please try to add to the discussion rather than obfuscate it.
If you can't back up any of your claims I don't see why you expect anyone to believe it. Especially since John up there posted an official annual report from the NTSB debunking said claims.
I won't be surprised to find a number larger than zero when I tally up head-on accidents since 1967, but I know it won't be 9,635 - which is what you get if a head-on collision occurred every seven minutes since 1967. And definitely not "100's of thousands" LOL.
Nobody said there were zero accidents. I suggest you re-read the thread.
Last edited:
Perhaps because you brought up 1967 back in post #6
Perhaps also you missed this:
June 2012 Oklahoma
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...missing-freight-train-collision-Oklahoma.html
http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2013/RAR1302.pdf
norfolksouthern37
what's a normal map?
Oh - that is true. I didn't think I was being confusing when I mentioned that was as far back as I had searched for a similar incident in Hoxie, Arkansas where the topic of this thread took place.
No I even mentioned it. Here it is again...
Last edited:
Sincere Condolences to the Families, and a prayer. //F
The other thing jumping out at me is ESTIMATES for 2012? Even N3V updates DLS data faster than the US government! Well, maybe not... there are still faults received during downloads, I need a better comparison I guess. // F
Ditto John. Nick--Like the PUN, so thank you for THAT! It's far better than reading these cross-snipes at one another when something is so obviously out of the ballpark and the county! Since any serious derailment is likey to be noticed, and then reported locally, it's rather difficult to conceive the NTSB is unaware of any of them.
IIRC, The RR's licenses to operate would be imperiled for failing to mention even the minor ones. Even truckers operate under such strictures--I've known a couple of independents and two company owners with fleets and we've chatted about their gripes with reporting stuff. Even maintenance stuff gets fed into the over-government maw forsooth!
Historically, these regulations were a major legal advance underlying, iirc, even the founding of the NTSB and the NRA/FRA (whatever name they call it this administration) under it. // F
Seems to be a cite a bit more on point that a Cascader allegation! How about a link there backing up your assertions. Say the National Enquirer with it's fine reputation? No? Not even one link? Harrumph!
The other thing jumping out at me is ESTIMATES for 2012? Even N3V updates DLS data faster than the US government! Well, maybe not... there are still faults received during downloads, I need a better comparison I guess. // F
(bold emphasis added)
Ditto John. Nick--Like the PUN, so thank you for THAT! It's far better than reading these cross-snipes at one another when something is so obviously out of the ballpark and the county! Since any serious derailment is likey to be noticed, and then reported locally, it's rather difficult to conceive the NTSB is unaware of any of them.
IIRC, The RR's licenses to operate would be imperiled for failing to mention even the minor ones. Even truckers operate under such strictures--I've known a couple of independents and two company owners with fleets and we've chatted about their gripes with reporting stuff. Even maintenance stuff gets fed into the over-government maw forsooth!
Historically, these regulations were a major legal advance underlying, iirc, even the founding of the NTSB and the NRA/FRA (whatever name they call it this administration) under it. // F
Right ON! Further, 1976 to late 80s may not be all online, but given the Clinton administration's push to convert Federal records for access by anyone, I'm willing to bet most are, and quite a few Universities sites will also have source documentation copies as well. // Frank
- Status