16 Texture Limit Test Run

[smyers]

I just did a test run regarding the 16 texture limit with this HD Terrain format we have with Trainz 22. I made a test route with the stock grass ground texture. Then sprayed two random textures on the ground, now I have three textures. Then I painted over them with the stock grass texture, thinking I'm back to only one texture. Checking the List of Dependents in the CM, however, showed the two random textures I used to test still there as dependents. Those 2 textures also appear in the config file meaning, I guess, they are still counted as textures being used by my route. Actually, there are 4 textures being used in my test route, as there's a "Base" texture, whatever that is. Can you imagine what a monster this could be with your older routes that use 50, 75, or even hundreds of textures? Even if you paint over them with the grid so as to start over, they're still in the config file, and seen as dependents. And even with a brand new route, if you reach the 16 texture limit and then decide to replace texture 7, for example, at a later date, texture 7 is still seen as a dependent and is still in the config file. You may remove a random texture by painting over 7 with something else. Am I missing something here? Is this HD worth the apparent nightmare of limiting textures? Just experimenting with various textures will keep them as dependents and in the config file as being used by your route, or so it seems. Show me where I'm going wrong here, please, and how this situation can be fixed, if possible. If not, them never mind this HD business. It may not be worth it.
Many Thanks,
smyers

 

[sw1500]

Painting over a texture is similar to putting a new layer of paint on a house. Both paints are on the house. To eliminate a texture from a route you must use bulk replace.

Also, my understanding is the 16 textures limit applies to each baseboard. You can have 16 textures on one baseboard then have 16 different textures on a different baseboard. My computer cannot handle HD terrain, so I have not verified this.

 

[smyers]

Thanks for the tip. I was unaware. I'll give it a try.
Many Thanks,
smyers
PS: The HD terrain is indeed very demanding on my PC. And it's not exactly a weakling!

 

[stagecoach]

You can use more than 16 but the least used one is eliminated. So in your case, the painted-over ones would be deleted from that board at some point.

 

[smyers]

That's correct stagecoach. But they're still in the config file and as dependents from what I've seen so far. The bulk replace is hardly (IMO) efficient to the job, as you can replace several textures with one texture (or effect layer) or replace each texture individually, potentially a massive job, This seems to be quite a mess, to me, unless I'm missing something somewhere. I think I'll just stick with non-HD for now. Quite a disappointment.
Best,
smyers

 

[pware]

The bulk replace is hardly (IMO) efficient to the job, as you can replace several textures with one texture (or effect layer) or replace each texture individually, potentially a massive job

I don't understand that comment.

I have had no problems using the Bulk Update/Replace Asset tool in Surveyor Classic or the Bulk Replace Assets Tool in Surveyor 2.0 to replace textures. The major difference between the tools in the two Surveyors is that Classic currently gives you more options. Unless I am mistaken, you cannot use the Bulk Replace Tool (in either Surveyor version) to swap a texture and an effect layer - they are two completely different types of objects. Both replace tools will only replace like with like and effect layers cannot be selected anyway.

I don't currently use HD because my current project is huge and its HD version would be beyond the 1GB size limit for creating a .cdp file. But I would certainly use it for small routes (if I could ever restrict myself to making a small route).

I have experimented with the S2.0 tool that converts a non-HD route to HD and found that in one of my routes none of the baseboards had exceeded the 16 texture limit and in another only one baseboard was beyond the limit but I was unable to see any significant difference in that baseboard (the conversion process will identify the affected baseboards). So my normal use of textures in a route would not be a problem - but I accept that it could be for other creators. In any case Trainz Plus has a Color Effect Layer that only works in HD routes that allows you to add unlimited colour tinting to any or all of the textures in a route and therefore largely ignore the 16 texture limit.

There are HD routes available on the DLS - for example <kuid2:69871:3680:3> TMR - 30ng The Clear Lake Mining Railroad, Woodlands - HD by philskene - which has no problems with the 16 texture per baseboard limit.

 

[JCitron]

It's 16 textures per baseboard and the B/U tool will replace them. It's easier in Surveyor 1.0 and there's an option to use the scaling and rotation of the replacing texture.

Approach Medium is currently building a route on YouTube using HD terrain and it looks really nice so far even with the 16-texture limit.

In all my years of Trainzing, I have never used the top-end of textures per baseboard and tend to stick to a handful or so. The issue I have with it is it ruins topographic maps or orthographic images placed down on the route when using TransDEM.

 

[smyers]

The Approach Medium route underway is terrific. My understanding of the color effect layer is that it will be applied to that texture wherever it is used. I'm not sure how it works. A bit much for me right now.
Many Thanks,
smyers

 

[smyers]

Well, I sorta got the tint thing to work, sorta. I can't get a small brush size or any consistency with it, but it does seem to be there. How do you get better results with it?
Best,
smyers

 

[philskene]

"There are HD routes available on the DLS - for example <kuid2:69871:3680:3> TMR - 30ng The Clear Lake Mining Railroad, Woodlands - HD by philskene - which has no problems with the 16 texture per baseboard limit."

That's because in all my routes and layouts I use a very limited number of textures.

Question -- apart from my two layouts (which are basically the same route) are there any other real HD routes on the Download Station? And by "real" I mean ones that actually do use HD terrain and textures properly.

 

[pware]

I sorta got the tint thing to work [Color Effect Layer], sorta. I can't get a small brush size or any consistency with it, but it does seem to be there. How do you get better results with it?

I have only "dabbled" with it as I am not yet ready to try my hand at a full HD route - see some details on the Trainz Wiki at:-

How_to_Use_S20_Tools#Color_Effect_Layer

How_to_Use_S20_Tools#Color_Layer_Edit_Controls

Color_effect_layer

That's because in all my routes and layouts I use a very limited number of textures.

Same here. The two large 10m grid routes I experimentally converted to HD only had a single baseboard between them that exceeded the 16 texture limit and they were made using my normal texturing technique.

are there any other real HD routes on the Download Station? And by "real" I mean ones that actually do use HD terrain and textures properly.

Unless the creator adds the label "HD" to the route title or in its description (like you did) then it can be difficult to tell if a route is HD or not. Apart from looking closely at the terrain for obvious 0.12m brush clues such as drainage ditches alongside the track and the steepness of cuttings and embankments the only foolproof method I have come across is to "poke" the baseboards with the ground height brush tool. My testing technique is detailed at How_to_Use_S20_Tools#Identifying_the_Grid_Size

 

[JCitron]

Well, I sorta got the tint thing to work, sorta. I can't get a small brush size or any consistency with it, but it does seem to be there. How do you get better results with it?
Best,
smyers

The color effect layer, I think, works like any effect layer and isn't really a texture and is a procedural object that is added to the surface like grass and water. These effect layers cover the surface from each grid point rather than covering a lot of grid points like a texture. This is why it's inconsistent and difficult to size and probably to color on angles, and why it's easier to cover larger areas than smaller ones.

 

[sw1500]

Unless the creator adds the label "HD" to the route title or in its description (like you did) then it can be difficult to tell if a route is HD or not. Apart from looking closely at the terrain for obvious 0.12m brush clues such as drainage ditches alongside the track and the steepness of cuttings and embankments the only foolproof method I have come across is to "poke" the baseboards with the ground height brush tool. My testing technique is detailed at How_to_Use_S20_Tools#Identifying_the_Grid_Size

There is an easier way to tell if a route is HD. Just go to the edge of the route and look to see if it has sides. 10m & 5m grids have a side that extends down while HD grids do not.

 

[wreeder]

Show me where I'm going wrong here, please

You keep saying "paint over texture" but that is not how textures in Trainz has ever worked. Just because you can't see a texture doesn't mean that it is removed from the route. This is true with classic surveyor as well. Layers of ground textures just stack up until they hit total limit of textures for the baseboard. Before TS2009 that limit was 256 ground textures per layout, TS2009 made it 256 per baseboard. With HD terrain, when you hit the 16 texture limit, the first texture applied isn't removed. The least used texture anywhere on the baseboard is removed and the area it occupied is made a blend of the neighboring textures. For example, a small area of a parking lot created by an asphalt texture which is a common practice in Trainz might disappear and the surrounding textures blended to cover the empty space.

 

[smyers]

Just because you can't see a texture doesn't mean that it is removed from the route

That apparently is correct, wreeder. I found this out purely by accident when examining config files and checking dependents. However, I haven't seen the blending effect you mentioned. I've been getting the grid where a texture was removed. Even in small spaces where two others are close together. The blending might actually be acceptable. Thanks for those links, pware, I'll be sure to go there ASAP.
Sorry to start a bit of a brush fire here, that wasn't my intention. We'll figure it out in time.
Best to All,
smyers

 

[pware]

However, I haven't seen the blending effect you mentioned.

In the S2.0 Tool Options Palette set the brush Sensitivity to a value lower than 100% - 1% will make the new texture almost totally transparent so the original texture will show through almost completely unchanged, 100% makes the new texture totally opaque (no blending), values in between have in between blending effects.

Sorry to start a bit of a brush fire here, that wasn't my intention.

Not yet the brush (or bush) fire season here but by January things will be "heating up".

 

[smyers]

In the S2.0 Tool Options Palette set the brush Sensitivity to a value lower than 100% - 1% will make the new texture almost totally transparent so the original texture will show through almost completely unchanged, 100% makes the new texture totally opaque (no blending), values in between have in between blending effects.

This technique works very well for me, pware. Thanks for the tip!
Best,
smyers