What would have happened if N3V did not use DRM at all ?

Seeing as most posts don't seem to be answering your question, and are merely questioning your reason for posting it, I will answer, and I'll make it short and to the point.

If DRM had not been used on T:ANE, I would now own it, and I would be trying to help N3V and the community get it working over the next few patches, as I've done with previous versions of Trainz.
(Should point out that when I talk about DRM, I'm only talking about the validating of the game. DLC DRM does not affect me).

Incidentally, DRM is about as effective at combatting piracy, as austerity is in combatting inflation or national debt (i.e. both have been proved to not work at all!)
Generally, both are used under that guise, but really it's more about control, and other agendas.

Sure, it's something that we all have to live with, but that doesn't mean we can't decide when and where we accept it.

Brian.

cascaderailroad said:

Phil_C locked his assets by the actual config files, and that made his assets uneditable, why can't N3V do that very same simple thing ?

You can't minimize your loss, when the horse has all ready been stolen from right out of the barn, by picking the DRM lock.

It is said that DRM helps cut back on piracy ... Now how can you cut back on something that is all ready out there, and is widely available to the public ... Cutting back really doesn't make any sense, if it is out there. you see ?

It is said that DRM helps enforce against piracy ... Now how can that be, if no one is being prosecuted for piracy ... So that is not making any sense, either, as there is no actual enforcement made by DRM, nor N3V, against pirates.

All DRM does is "stick it to" the paying customers, as the pirates are actively out there, giving the game away, for free, right now.

DRM ? ... What good is DRM, if it is hackable ?

Click to expand...

Arrrh, because if you locked the assets, you're going to have a hell of an uproar questioning why N3V is locking assets, this has already been an issue in a thread regarding the builtin routes included in TANE. However, I guess that doesn't stop individuals from locking assets or routes if Phil_C did it. I don't know the ins and outs of that one.

Now, forget about whats already happened, we already know all that, question is, how do we go forward from this point, we all know hacking cant be totally prevented (maybe it can, I don't know), but what measures can/do you take to minimise it?

cascaderailroad said:

Not one person has described what would happen if N3V did not use DRM, or discontinued using DRM.

Click to expand...

I don't know. Who amongst us has a crystal ball? IF they did go bankrupt because of no DRM (and how would you prove that?) no doubt there would be many criticising N3V for their lack of security/foresight/common sense/etc. Would you be one of those critics, would you even care given your opposition to DRM? I would certainly be most annoyed.

cascaderailroad said:

Most probably they would have been in the same shape that they are now, without DRM.

Click to expand...

Again, that is pure speculation - your first two words give that away. But, thankfully, we will never know.

Personally, I have no problem with the "once per month validation" (if that is what their DRM is) that N3V have implemented on their products. I already live with DRM (or whatever it is called) with Microsoft's products and have no intention of going over to Liniux, of any flavour, as a protest against M$ or as a hedge against their possible future bankruptcy. If N3V go under because they did or did not implement DRM then it will not be the end of the world for me.

This thread has started to become a pointless rehashing of old arguments and clearly you will not be budged from your position - as is your right, but please, stop bashing us with it. Its time to move on.

Peter Ware

What would happen?
We wouldn't have to put up with Cascaderailroad building up his post count on a lost cause................

Well, here's my take...

There'd be less of these threads. :wave:

I am a paying customer and I do not have any pain and my expense was a one-off experience. This is really all about the few spoiling everything for the rest. Maybe N3V could give us a pin number or something when we log into the DLS. Determined hackers can get into the pentagon so what chance do we have? Life goes on -ho-hum.

Something like this is exactly what I was talking about. In fact, I had thought the DLS only allowed registered users, until a year or two ago, when unregistered users (one of whom was an admitted pirate) posted that they were able to download from the DLS.

Seems N3V's trying to combat piracy by using a flamethrower instead of trying a fly swatter first.

Remember when the server update was taking place a week ago, and there was a sign, saying all connections will be severed for at least 6 hours or more ... when N3V goes offline permanently ... all those who are saying: "Who cares about DRM" ... "DRM doesn't affect me" ... you will then, care ... No Game ... No DLC ... No Download Station ... No Forum ... No Nothing at all !

Mark my words ... You will then, care ! And blocking it all, will be DRM !

cascaderailroad said:

Remember when the server update was taking place a week ago, and there was a sign, saying all connections will be severed for at least 6 hours or more ... when N3V goes offline permanently ... all those who are saying: "Who cares about DRM" ... "DRM doesn't affect me" ... you will then, care ... No Game ... No DLC ... No Download Station ... No Forum ... No Nothing at all !

Mark my words ... You will then, care ! And blocking it all, will be DRM !

Click to expand...

I worked on my route in tane during that entire time..............hummm

If N3V didn't have DRM at all. Well, They would continue to lose X amount of dollars. Yes the guys that have nothing better to do than break code to give away programs would still be able to break the DRM and share it. DRM stops just the average person from just uploading his version of payware to any site and it spread like wildfire. We have all seen the gimmie pigs in the forums asking, demanding, payware,shareware, freeware from creators and just other users. DRM adds a layer there that will stop the casual user from sharing items that N3V does not wish to be shared. We are not talking about Microsoft, E.A. or any other large software company that has shrinkage figured into their budget and just assumes that loss as part of day to day operation. N3V is a small company that cannot afford those losses. So what happens if they didn't have DRM. One possibility is they have to close because of lack of sales. Then all your doomsday scenarios could come true. Instead of rehashing this DRM topic that is not going to change or go away. How about digging into the game and posting bug reports to improve the product.

RRSignal said:

Something like this is exactly what I was talking about. In fact, I had thought the DLS only allowed registered users, until a year or two ago, when unregistered users (one of whom was an admitted pirate) posted that they were able to download from the DLS.

Seems N3V's trying to combat piracy by using a flamethrower instead of trying a fly swatter first.

Click to expand...

Maybe the fly swatter has been tried by other companies and had no success, so the flamethrower is worth a try - just a thought even though I really don't agree with your anology there.

Your first paragraph would have little affect due to so many creators having their assets on their own sites and not in the DLS. Or would you prefer no DRM and have N3V lock the system so you can only download from the DLS - Im sure that really wouldn't go down well.

Those ideas weren't thought through so well.

cascaderailroad said:

Remember when the server update was taking place a week ago, and there was a sign, saying all connections will be severed for at least 6 hours or more ... when N3V goes offline permanently ... all those who are saying: "Who cares about DRM" ... "DRM doesn't affect me" ... you will then, care ... No Game ... No DLC ... No Download Station ... No Forum ... No Nothing at all !

Mark my words ... You will then, care ! And blocking it all, will be DRM !

Click to expand...

Whats it like being that paranoid? It must be a frightening world you live in. So how about coming up with some suggestions on how you think it should be managed.

OP Says, "Phil_C effectively locked all his assets, and you can't clone them, get inside them, nor trade them ... And he didn't use DRM."

Really! I just cloned 2 of his payware locos in TS2010 with no problems. Around 2 years ago I exported all his payware from TRS2006 into CDPs and reinstalled them in 2010. No problems there either. Now, I don't know what might happen if I cloned all the dependencies, exported to a CDP, and tried to run them on someone else's computer (i.e., a Trainz install not licensed to my Trainz user ID). There was a "key" file in there I think that somehow locked the files to a specific user ID. Is that what you were referring to?


As for "locked" Config files, I strongly oppose that. I have a very few (possibly Phil_C non-payware older assets, I don't know) that had locked non-editable Config files. These are a pain in the butt because I almost always change the username in all assets that appear in the Surveyor loco/railcar and/or building/trees/scenery lists. There is no order/format whatsoever in how creators name their assets. I like order!! I like all my locos and/or cars to appear as per the examples below. They sort together in Surveyor so you can easily locate them. This is very important to me. If you are going to DRM or lock files to prevent editing then there still needs to be a way to at least modify the username to we can get some decent order in how assets are displayed in Surveyor. I'm not into stealing/sharing other creator's files but I would like to be able to locate them myself.

Examples: (DE = Diesel Electric whereas SE would be a Steam Engine) followed by model, RR, loco #, and additional info)

DE-AC4400CW-CTE UP #5888 V2,<kuid2:574550:1154:1>
DE-AC4400CW-CTE UP #5888 Weathered V2,<kuid:574550:100015>
DE-AC6000CW CSX Auto# (Fuel) Bright Future,<kuid2:86105:8170:2>
DE-AC6000CW CSX Auto# (Fuel) Bright Future(clone),<kuid:214940:100420>
DE-AC6000CW UP Auto# (Fuel),<kuid2:86105:8172:2>
DE-AC6000CW UP Auto# (Fuel) We Will Deliver,<kuid2:86105:8174:2>
DE-ALCO DL-109 NH Class DER-1 Brooks Brothers,<kuid:376853:100680>
DE-ALCO DL-109 NH Class DER-1 Brooks Brothers Gold,<kuid:376853:100683>
DE-ALCO DL-109 NH Class DER-1 Brooks Brothers late,<kuid:376853:100678>
DE-ALCO DL-109 NH Class DER-1 Layer Cake,<kuid:376853:100686>
DE-ALCO FA-1 MOPAC #301,<kuid:353984:1264>
DE-ALCO FA-1 MOPAC #330,<kuid:353984:1266>
DE-ALCO FB-1 MOPAC #301B,<kuid:353984:1265>
DE-BBL Amtrak Cascades BBL Cab Car,<kuid2:104609:1532:5>
DE-BBL Amtrak Surfliner BBL Cab Car,<kuid2:104609:1526:5>
DE-B23-7R GE Auto# (1700-1999) Super 7 Undec,<kuid:101046:102476>
DE-B36-7 CSX Auto# (5806-5926) Stealth,<kuid:473973:100011>
DE-B39-8E SP #8019,<kuid:473973:100295>
DE-B39-8E SP #8024,<kuid:473973:100296>

Examples: (F = car type (flatcar), 53 = length (ft), GF = General Flat whereas WC = well car, etc, LDL = Loads designated load vs LML = Loads multiple loads vs PRL = Permanent Roadrailer Load, followed by RR letters, car number, and other info.)

F53GFLDL UP #58234 Wheelsets,<kuid:101046:101247>
F53GFLML UP Auto#,<kuid:101046:101282>
F53GFLML UP #58234 V2,<kuid2:101046:101252:1>
F53RRPRL Roadrailer A (auto),<kuid:38408:15006>
F53RRPRL Roadrailer A (standard),<kuid:38408:15000>
F53RRPRL Roadrailer A (standard) Swift,<kuid:323193:100017>
F53RRPRL Roadrailer A (standard) Triple Crown Services,<kuid:38408:15012>

And, yes, N3V will go away someday, just as Auran did after TRS2006. If the "mother ship" goes away will your TANE cease to work? It could very well happen with TANE/DRM if no one picks up the flag from N3V. As with investments, don't put all your trust in one product.

iannz said:

Maybe the fly swatter has been tried by other companies and had no success, so the flamethrower is worth a try - just a thought even though I really don't agree with your anology there.

Your first paragraph would have little affect due to so many creators having their assets on their own sites and not in the DLS. Or would you prefer no DRM and have N3V lock the system so you can only download from the DLS - Im sure that really wouldn't go down well.

Those ideas weren't thought through so well.

Click to expand...

Proof, please? N3V had a pretty good system. The problem is, the whole time, they never attempted to try the common-sense method to block unregistered users users with unassigned keys from accessing the DLS. I have yet to see any route that doesn't require at least some content from the DLS, which is why such a strategy would work well, if it were ever actually tried.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that REQUIRING Trainzers to only source content from the DLS has anything to do with the price of tea in China, though it would certainly simplify content availability and do away with the dreaded "Great KUID Hunt." Moreover, at least it won't break the game.

The idea of a site key-gen might work.

The system could use a C. O. D., or code of the day, which is available in-game launcher, and only works if the user is registered on MyTrainz, whether by serial number or username.

When the registered user logs into T:ANE using their user credentials, this enables the system, and a small window in the interface somewhere has the daily number displayed.

When the user initiates a download the first time, they then enter in the key-gen code into a small window, and that tells the DLS that this is in fact a registered user and to allow the content to be downloaded.

If the user does not have a code, and is running T:ANE, then they can't download content which limits the user to an unregistered local install only, or scarfing all over the place for content. It won't stop base-product piracy, however, it will slow one of the very reasons why people like the Trainz franchise so much because of the huge amount of freely available routes and assets. It will make the KUID hunt more difficult because nearly every route has some built-in asset somewhere.

Sure there are already some foreign sites that have packs of built-ins. I have come across these during many a great KUID hunt, however, these are the older assets and without the proper updating won't work in T:ANE anyway, besides we can't import old built-ins directly anyway.

This system is far from perfect, but it beats the usual *.* global approach that N3V has taken on this.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

John

We could suggest something like this John. I had the idea of some kind of pin number and you have explained the method. We would be in with a chance if the game is registered with a serial number. You have a FCT. You have a registered name.

When you go onto the DLS all of this is checked plus you have your own password. My bank asks me for 4 random digit/characters from a memorable word. That could be an option?

Anyone want to expand on that a bit further??

Doug

cascaderailroad said:

Phil_C locked his assets by the actual config files, and that made his assets uneditable, why can't N3V do that very same simple thing ?

Click to expand...

Why do you keep asking this question inside of this 'what if' question?

the method of locking configs is very easy to circumvent if you want to bad enough. I'm not going to explain how it is done here but it is far from difficult and only takes a matter of minutes.

This really has nothing to do with DRM.

JCitron said:

The idea of a site key-gen might work.

The system could use a C. O. D., or code of the day, which is available in-game launcher, and only works if the user is registered on MyTrainz, whether by serial number or username.

When the registered user logs into T:ANE using their user credentials, this enables the system, and a small window in the interface somewhere has the daily number displayed.

When the user initiates a download the first time, they then enter in the key-gen code into a small window, and that tells the DLS that this is in fact a registered user and to allow the content to be downloaded.

If the user does not have a code, and is running T:ANE, then they can't download content which limits the user to an unregistered local install only, or scarfing all over the place for content. It won't stop base-product piracy, however, it will slow one of the very reasons why people like the Trainz franchise so much because of the huge amount of freely available routes and assets. It will make the KUID hunt more difficult because nearly every route has some built-in asset somewhere.

Sure there are already some foreign sites that have packs of built-ins. I have come across these during many a great KUID hunt, however, these are the older assets and without the proper updating won't work in T:ANE anyway, besides we can't import old built-ins directly anyway.

This system is far from perfect, but it beats the usual *.* global approach that N3V has taken on this.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

John

Click to expand...

Good idea, this is another alternative. Even if the "code of the day" were done on a weekly or monthly basis, it would be enough to keep out most if not all pirates, due to lag time.

JCitron said:

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

John

Click to expand...

First really Constructive post in two pages is my thinking...... Congratulations.

BLizzard Entertainment, I believe, was the first to try something similar to this. They created what they called "An Authenticator", available for purchase or Download, which you could attach to your account. They used a unique algorithm (To each copy/device) to generate a number that changed every 2-3 seconds that was required to log into whatever account the device was attached to. The algorithm ostensibly having a copy running on their servers somewhere so it knew what numbers to look for...... It was an incredible system. I have doubts that it ever stayed entirely "Hacker Proof", but it certainly made hacking individuals accounts equipped with such such a pain in the derriere for the rewards they were looking for that Blizz was able to say on numerous occasions later that "Reports of hacked accounts have dwindled to almost nothing", and I would easily believe it. Hence what I keep saying about "Throwing Road Blocks into the Path"......

The big draw back with that system is that it has a ton of front end resource eating to do. Setting up the system itself was neither easy or quick for Blizzard, and thats before you even get into Distribution..... And though the DLS is the only place this could really work for N3V (Perhaps MP as well), it won't do much for the illegal copies. All it would really take to defeat something like this is one person willing to copy assets off the DLS and post them somewhere else for DL, thereby side stepping the mothership entirely.

Personally, I think what they've done has a chance of working as intended. I'm willing to give it a shot and see what happens.

@RRSignal
You call him out on proof, but then provide none of your own? I'm not trying to be funny or cop an attitude, you raise an interesting point and I'm wondering how you came to the conclusions you did. Why do you think these users had unassigned Keys? I rather thought they would have the same key(s) as what the person that originally posted their copy of Trainz had or the software wouldn't have worked at all? Further, if there was a Key-Gen involved, for it to work at all it would have been capable of generating Keys that appeared "Correct" to N3V's system, or it wouldn't have worked as a Key-Gen at all..... Key Code Protection is usually a Check for Correct Key encryption and Math, not a direct Key-Check against a Spread Sheet, and even then, just sharing my Keycode and User ID to all and sundry would defeat even that regardless. As for the DLS, and protecting it, for the reasons I just outlined in my response to John I can't honestly see that working. You're just making Torrent into DLS-V2......


@Cascade
I've done my best to calmly answer your *repeated* inquiries.... But then you turn around and say nobody has done so, and ask the same questions all over again. I'm done helping you increase your post count. Have a nice day.


-Falcus

To answer your question.....(OP)

Some people would get paranoid over something else!

Please for the love of whatever you believe in, give it a rest about DRM!

Regards.
CaptEngland. :n:

@ Falcus . The key gen sounds a lot like RSA SercurID. A number is generated every minute that in combination with a user supplied code has to match what an authentication server has. Used all the time in business. Perhaps a bit overkill for a game but the idea would work. Every minute might be a bit much too, a new number once a day should be enough

Falcus said:

First really Constructive post in two pages is my thinking...... Congratulations.

BLizzard Entertainment, I believe, was the first to try something similar to this. They created what they called "An Authenticator", available for purchase or Download, which you could attach to your account. They used a unique algorithm (To each copy/device) to generate a number that changed every 2-3 seconds that was required to log into whatever account the device was attached to. The algorithm ostensibly having a copy running on their servers somewhere so it knew what numbers to look for...... It was an incredible system. I have doubts that it ever stayed entirely "Hacker Proof", but it certainly made hacking individuals accounts equipped with such such a pain in the derriere for the rewards they were looking for that Blizz was able to say on numerous occasions later that "Reports of hacked accounts have dwindled to almost nothing", and I would easily believe it. Hence what I keep saying about "Throwing Road Blocks into the Path"......

The big draw back with that system is that it has a ton of front end resource eating to do. Setting up the system itself was neither easy or quick for Blizzard, and thats before you even get into Distribution..... And though the DLS is the only place this could really work for N3V (Perhaps MP as well), it won't do much for the illegal copies. All it would really take to defeat something like this is one person willing to copy assets off the DLS and post them somewhere else for DL, thereby side stepping the mothership entirely.

Click to expand...

I doubt N3V's system was either quick or easy for either them or us, particularly judging by the number of outages.

@RRSignal
You call him out on proof, but then provide none of your own? I'm not trying to be funny or cop an attitude, you raise an interesting point and I'm wondering how you came to the conclusions you did. Why do you think these users had unassigned Keys? I rather thought they would have the same key(s) as what the person that originally posted their copy of Trainz had or the software wouldn't have worked at all? Further, if there was a Key-Gen involved, for it to work at all it would have been capable of generating Keys that appeared "Correct" to N3V's system, or it wouldn't have worked as a Key-Gen at all..... Key Code Protection is usually a Check for Correct Key encryption and Math, not a direct Key-Check against a Spread Sheet, and even then, just sharing my Keycode and User ID to all and sundry would defeat even that regardless. As for the DLS, and protecting it, for the reasons I just outlined in my response to John I can't honestly see that working. You're just making Torrent into DLS-V2......

Click to expand...

I'll happily provide proof:

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/show...lp&p=1369199&highlight=registered#post1369199

I'm basing this on the fact that this and other users had nothing registered. They could have gotten their hands on "legit" keys, or could have used a program called a "keygen" that generates random keys that are supposed to work with a given algorithm. Fortunately, keygens often (if not usually) don't work, and known-pirated serials can easily be revoked via a revocation list.

John's idea is an additional layer on what would already be a pretty tough system.

I'm not sure what torrents have to do with anything: As far as torrents go, you realistically can't torrent the DLS due to its size.