Validating, why N3V keeps loosing customers, and what to do about it

Fabartus

Banned
I'm going to kick off this thread with some 'SIDE BUSINESS' FROM UPSTREAM IN THIS 'Validation, Validation' THREAD to remain on point. Ive been studying N3V and the Trainz release history, shortcomings, fixups and so forth both for the attempts to userfy the N3V Wiki, but also for updating the Wikibook. Someone has to write some stuff for beginner Trainzers, and N3V has had since 2008 to get something together in the TrainzOnline Wiki. We all know how it hasn't happened. I have about 20% of the edits in the N3V wiki, but Windwalkr wants nothing to reflect the N3V we all experience. This thread starts with that topic, in point, counter-point order, but in a day or three and for a while after that, I'm going to post fixes that the community should consider, and the reason why they are more important than TANE to the survival of N3V and Trainz by any release date.

This continues from a discussion where I excerpted a bunch of emails that pointed out there were quite a few unhappy with the N3V status quo in TS12, most quoted being software savvy like myself:

Perhaps. However, you should also keep in mind that:

* In this thread, well in advance of your post, we've already identified specific issues that we'd like to investigate further.
* We have a major project underway to overhaul the Trainz engine, specifically to bring it up to date for modern workloads.

If that's "arrogance" and "lack of focus" then so be it.
chris

NOT my comment, as with many in that pistache. Just the way the wind blows from some other software people I network with, not all of them in Yesterdayz Trainz, either. Personally, I figure you've got a bit of PTSD, and should have been relieved of your "FACE" duties here on the forum several years ago. MANY of your answers come off as snippy, juvenile, and dismissive, and as the poster noted above, you run and hide often enough to be twitted about it.

As chief software geek, you have better things to do, I'm sure, and frankly your lack of sensitivity just alienates the people because your impatience shines through. People usually refer to that as arrogance, and believe it or not, I usually defend you on that. Actually, I defend you quite a bit. Mostly I point out that that appellation is not quite accurate, and you have other things you're balancing. As a designer I understand that very well. I'm heartened that you admit here that your code isn't perfect and may be at fault, as it sets that arrogance accusation back a bit. Back on topic to interject ... I'm leaning to a design flaw as the BAD 'BOO BOO BOO HISSSSSSSSS' case seems to be when YOU think it okay and reasonable below. (more later)

The difference between me and the average poster here, is that I'd hopes by confronting you in July, the sounds thing in November and with those candid thoughts of others besides myself above, you would perhaps improve your listening and actually focus on the issues. (You're bann on this draft N3V wiki edit on a page which had been stagnant for months I just find childish. All you did with that is hurt the new customers--whom I'd hoped to have help for by Christmas!. There are after all, many here that shake their heads at your 'Wiki', usually with swearing attached! Tony Hilliam had to take his time to renew what I'd started--three months later. Good un, Chris! I actually set Trainz aside for near three months, as being not worth the time--because you clearly weren't going to smarten up. Not sure resuming is smart of me. HOPE you prove my faith is warranted.)

Instead you are almost certainly rushing to push TANE instead of fixing TS12 as all the complaints since a year ago have begged. On this I'm with John Weylan, Fix TS12, and especially the DLS, then resume development of TANE. Your lack of dealing with both the former expeditiously just stirs up anger each occurrence of getting burned again by either. I went off on you in November on the sounds thing after an extended session of error fixing. Unforgivable, the time you cost others with inaction and ineffectiveness. I'm unpersuadable on that point. Your failure to effectively terminate the DLS errors issue is your greatest error. Until you correct that boondoggle, I'm going to forever have trouble seeing you as a true professional, the ceiling tops out at 'promising bush-leaguer'; you have talent and skills, but cogent priority setting seems vastly deficient. (In short, every time we get a new error from the DLS, or the performance dragging in TS12--we get P.O.'d all over again. To not bog this thread down, I'll post some concrete steps you can take immediately elsewhere in the next day or so. I've given it A LOT OF THOUGHT.)

[That's about a third... Good thing I excerpted to go on point again in the other thread!]
 
Last edited:
re: In short, all from technical professionals who have a bit more experience in large ponds as small fish growing wiser without fullfilling the Peter principle so young as you

In short, a comment like that makes you an ass and comes across more than a little ageist. Not saying you're stupid or don't make occasional useful input, but turning everything into personal attacks against myself and my colleagues doesn't help anything and has actively lead to you being banned from our wiki. I find that a real shame personally, because you were one of the more active wiki editors and we want to see more wiki activity, but if you spend as much of your time attacking what we do as you do making yourself useful, then we don't have much time for you.

chris
Being called an Ass by you is something of a badge of honor, just as being banned by you over a good faith edit--when you point that sort of finger, you forget three are pointing right back at you. Besides, the more correct term would be a DICK. Further, It's really not meant as a personal attack Chris, just the way I see you. Wearily. Slowly failing. Flailing. You fell into a choice job while very young and inexperienced, and we techies on Skype basically attribute many of N3V's failings to that single factor. In a nutshell, you don't and haven't had the opportunity to grow to be more cosmopolitan as a geek by observing others day to day and going through the half-dozen defenses of your approaches we see in a bigger operation.

Further, your actions and posts in dozens of places are frequently defensive, many have the snide comments and uncaring dictates, and worse, unanswered points... those behaviors aren't mine to own. They're yours. I'm just Frank enough and sick and tired enough to point them out in an attempt to be constructive--if by nothing else getting you to look at the deleterious impact your code has on our time. If that makes me an ass for defending every Trainz user your in-actions have victimized, then so be it.

I'm afraid I have to insist on better from you. Think I get my jollies running people down? I got better things to do with my time, I'm hoping for a rationale payback here. Not just to make you feel bad. One of the quotes I pasted from the email mentioned you guys being too isolated, or the like. I agree, you're a big fish in your pond, unaware of that mouth into a large lake just through those weeds. Out in the Lake when a bunch of customers tell us they're unhappy with performance we move to fix it.

I don't think it particularly ageist either, but do cite your inexperience at other jobs being a major contributing factor to why I believe you are continuing to make the same mistakes here in this job; at least that's how I defend you when others say far worse. You're a lot like our President, you want to dictate the discussion and the outcome, and never give the other party a fair shot at making their contributions. Without feedback a system runs amuck. When a direction is ill chosen, or a directive goes bad, the same thing happens; worse, in many cases instead of backing up and acknowledging a bad choice, resetting and resuming progress, such a bad-dictate oft takes on a half-life far longer than it warrants and much time is wasted trying to patch it. TS12 does not respect a users time, as I complained back in June. Is it really that onerous that we should want it fixed properly?

Consider this damning situation... Sometimes, if you don't like the direction a discussion goes, you try to move it to another topic--most often dwelling on some side issue like this point by point rebuttal/summary close by you. Answer me this... WHY PRAY TELL are we needing software TOOLS from PEV, ANDI06, IAN, etc. when YOU broke the data definitions and have total control of the parsing, saving, and processing? Why didn't YOU issue upgrade tools about the time of TRS2006-SP1 and that first batch of errors?

Why aren't we using CHRIS-toolz 4.2 and instead have to go to a third party to restore functionality? Because you care so much? Or because it was easier for you to break the processing and for whatever reasons (Personally I defend those as likely being necessary) change the data model definition syntaxes? I wasn't aware that a customer base that was primarily weighted to the retiree communities was ever all that interested in software maintenance tasks, which alas, resembles work all too much.

Most of us have Trainz for when we wanted to take a recreational moment... yet come to find that time after time we're Screwed out of that pleasure because we have to spend chunks of time... as we perceive it, unnecessarily, doing tasks we shouldn't ought to do as customers... Think on that bit of reverse-ageist reality. To this community you are the prime villain. WHY? Why doesn't N3V use their own KUID2 system? Where are all the updated <kuid:-1:> assets as kuid2s? Why did you all 'cheat' and translate most of them (in TRS2006) into TS09, but not update them to conform to your own standards? You picked the error messages to enforce, where is the leadership to set the example? NOT publishing those pretty much guaranteed that all TRS2004-TRS2006 routes depending on legacy track assets can't be brought into TS12--a good chunk of the DLS--and precisely the part a new user will most likely download... routes, I'd wager.

I'm still missing 24 bridges and tunnels in my major route, and now that I've worked my way into TS12, find I have to figure out how to port those, which mean I have to upgrade them too. I'm supposed to be happy with that kind of omission from the DLS? TS12 won't take my codes for TS09 and TS10, so importing their JAs seems a forlorn hope. Reloading from scratch is a likely future task. How's a new customer, one without TS09 or TS10 to know that those missing 45, 60, or 432 assets on that route he got off the DLS were part of TRS2006. How many give up with a list of missing assets, a screenful of errors? This sort of bad planning is plain stupid and inexcuable. Yet we try to remain loyal, to cut the company slack. It wears, Chris, It wears.

Tying these factors together... THAT'S YOUR JOB. You're the tech guy. Maintaining backwards compatibility has always has been a prime priority in an ethical company. (The backstory betting there is you've managed to flim-flam Tony Hilliam with techno-double-speak, and so have sidestepped his ire. I'm not sure I buy that totally, but do believe he's ignorant of how much you could process and fix automatically.) You want to change code reading so an TR04 asset which worked fine breaks because 'that referenced texture' is in a sub-folder, and also needed in both there and the root or another child folder, then you and your translations should continue to handle it, or auto-fix it. Trainz 1.3, UTC or TR04 made the asset in 3D, you going to tell me you can't write a subroutine to check for the same named texture in all dependent folders when you get an error? I've more faith in you than THAT!

Similarly, why complain about a uniform texture. Shrink the thing to 16x16 or whatever, and move on. Just get a pragmatic fix out of the way. Hell make a library of HTML or RGB colors and refer to an entry. DON'T bother people who just want to use it; we don't buy these programs to pick up your dirty laundry. In short, in everything you do... avoid decisions that cost customers TIME. People are frustrated because you seem to never do anything but do things which cost us time and effort.

WHY does Trainz so often bother people when 'it' (a fix) can be done automatically? You make a 3D object, you gonna sell me that with a little effort you can't adapt Railyard to manifest a 3D image and auto-image an thumbnail set? You auto image a rotating image in Surveyors' Tool windows (F3 & F4) Ditto spelling errors, ditto a dozen other aggravations that worked, and your code changes broke, like remarks, whether semicolons, '//' and REM with quotes. Comment the damn offending line, patch the file with an annotation that can be read in description and move on. Park the original config.txt file as a archived change copy if you must, but stop wasting users time. If needed, add a developer's check level, otherwise code to fix and fly along.,. But no, you chose a path which wastes the users time, what is supposed to be enjoyable hobby time for every one of us turns into a daily frustration and aggravation... THEN freezes, pauses, hesitates, and validates with little rhyme or reason.

YOU'RE A BETTER SOFTWARE GEEK than that, unfortunately, you apparently aren't very good reading why people get angry, or are just a rotten person. You choose; binary solution set. Maybe you truly don't care--that makes you something of a sociopath, iirc. Certainly your track record backs that up your lack of action to resolve these sort of issues since 2006. Yes we expect things to be backwards compatible, as every computer customer has since the 1950s. Explain to JamesMoody THAT's always been 90-95% of the job function of a software engineer. We also expect reasonable performance from running a TRS2006 route on a newish 3.7 GHz quad-core, high-end Nvidia Gcard system with RAM to burn... not staggers and pauses and unexpected delays. Nor do we expect to see the same performance issues we asked for remediation of back in June.
// Frank

(Continued)
 
Being called an Ass by you is something of a badge of honor, just as being banned by you over a good faith edit--when you point that sort of finger, you forget three are pointing right back at you. Besides, the more correct term would be a DICK. Further, It's really not meant as a personal attack Chris, just the way I see you. Wearily. Slowly failing. Flailing. You fell into a choice job while very young and inexperienced, and we techies on Skype basically attribute many of N3V's failings to that single factor. In a nutshell, you don't and haven't had the opportunity to grow to be more cosmopolitan as a geek by observing others day to day and going through the half-dozen defenses of your approaches we see in a bigger operation.

Further, your actions and posts in dozens of places are frequently defensive, many have the snide comments and uncaring dictates, and worse, unanswered points... those behaviors aren't mine to own. They're yours. I'm just Frank enough and sick and tired enough to point them out in an attempt to be constructive--if by nothing else getting you to look at the deleterious impact your code has on our time. If that makes me an ass for defending every Trainz user your in-actions have victimized, then so be it.

I'm afraid I have to insist on better from you. Think I get my jollies running people down? I got better things to do with my time, I'm hoping for a rationale payback here. Not just to make you feel bad. One of the quotes I pasted from the email mentioned you guys being too isolated, or the like. I agree, you're a big fish in your pond, unaware of that mouth into a large lake just through those weeds. Out in the Lake when a bunch of customers tell us they're unhappy with performance we move to fix it.

I don't think it particularly ageist either, but do cite your inexperience at other jobs being a major contributing factor to why I believe you are continuing to make the same mistakes here in this job; at least that's how I defend you when others say far worse. You're a lot like our President, you want to dictate the discussion and the outcome, and never give the other party a fair shot at making their contributions. Without feedback a system runs amuck. When a direction is ill chosen, or a directive goes bad, the same thing happens; worse, in many cases instead of backing up and acknowledging a bad choice, resetting and resuming progress, such a bad-dictate oft takes on a half-life far longer than it warrants and much time is wasted trying to patch it. TS12 does not respect a users time, as I complained back in June. Is it really that onerous that we should want it fixed properly?

Consider this damning situation... Sometimes, if you don't like the direction a discussion goes, you try to move it to another topic--most often dwelling on some side issue like this point by point rebuttal/summary close by you. Answer me this... WHY PRAY TELL are we needing software TOOLS from PEV, ANDI06, IAN, etc. when YOU broke the data definitions and have total control of the parsing, saving, and processing? Why didn't YOU issue upgrade tools about the time of TRS2006-SP1 and that first batch of errors?

Why aren't we using CHRIS-toolz 4.2 and instead have to go to a third party to restore functionality? Because you care so much? Or because it was easier for you to break the processing and for whatever reasons (Personally I defend those as likely being necessary) change the data model definition syntaxes? I wasn't aware that a customer base that was primarily weighted to the retiree communities was ever all that interested in software maintenance tasks, which alas, resembles work all too much.

Most of us have Trainz for when we wanted to take a recreational moment... yet come to find that time after time we're Screwed out of that pleasure because we have to spend chunks of time... as we perceive it, unnecessarily, doing tasks we shouldn't ought to do as customers... Think on that bit of reverse-ageist reality. To this community you are the prime villain. WHY? Why doesn't N3V use their own KUID2 system? Where are all the updated <kuid:-1:> assets as kuid2s? Why did you all 'cheat' and translate most of them (in TRS2006) into TS09, but not update them to conform to your own standards? You picked the error messages to enforce, where is the leadership to set the example? NOT publishing those pretty much guaranteed that all TRS2004-TRS2006 routes depending on legacy track assets can't be brought into TS12--a good chunk of the DLS--and precisely the part a new user will most likely download... routes, I'd wager.

I'm still missing 24 bridges and tunnels in my major route, and now that I've worked my way into TS12, find I have to figure out how to port those, which mean I have to upgrade them too. I'm supposed to be happy with that kind of omission from the DLS? TS12 won't take my codes for TS09 and TS10, so importing their JAs seems a forlorn hope. Reloading from scratch is a likely future task. How's a new customer, one without TS09 or TS10 to know that those missing 45, 60, or 432 assets on that route he got off the DLS were part of TRS2006. How many give up with a list of missing assets, a screenful of errors? This sort of bad planning is plain stupid and inexcuable. Yet we try to remain loyal, to cut the company slack. It wears, Chris, It wears.

Tying these factors together... THAT'S YOUR JOB. You're the tech guy. Maintaining backwards compatibility has always has been a prime priority in an ethical company. (The backstory betting there is you've managed to flim-flam Tony Hilliam with techno-double-speak, and so have sidestepped his ire. I'm not sure I buy that totally, but do believe he's ignorant of how much you could process and fix automatically.) You want to change code reading so an TR04 asset which worked fine breaks because 'that referenced texture' is in a sub-folder, and also needed in both there and the root or another child folder, then you and your translations should continue to handle it, or auto-fix it. Trainz 1.3, UTC or TR04 made the asset in 3D, you going to tell me you can't write a subroutine to check for the same named texture in all dependent folders when you get an error? I've more faith in you than THAT!

Similarly, why complain about a uniform texture. Shrink the thing to 16x16 or whatever, and move on. Just get a pragmatic fix out of the way. Hell make a library of HTML or RGB colors and refer to an entry. DON'T bother people who just want to use it; we don't buy these programs to pick up your dirty laundry. In short, in everything you do... avoid decisions that cost customers TIME. People are frustrated because you seem to never do anything but do things which cost us time and effort.

WHY does Trainz so often bother people when 'it' (a fix) can be done automatically? You make a 3D object, you gonna sell me that with a little effort you can't adapt Railyard to manifest a 3D image and auto-image an thumbnail set? You auto image a rotating image in Surveyors' Tool windows (F3 & F4) Ditto spelling errors, ditto a dozen other aggravations that worked, and your code changes broke, like remarks, whether semicolons, '//' and REM with quotes. Comment the damn offending line, patch the file with an annotation that can be read in description and move on. Park the original config.txt file as a archived change copy if you must, but stop wasting users time. If needed, add a developer's check level, otherwise code to fix and fly along.,. But no, you chose a path which wastes the users time, what is supposed to be enjoyable hobby time for every one of us turns into a daily frustration and aggravation... THEN freezes, pauses, hesitates, and validates with little rhyme or reason.

YOU'RE A BETTER SOFTWARE GEEK than that, unfortunately, you apparently aren't very good reading why people get angry, or are just a rotten person. You choose; binary solution set. Maybe you truly don't care--that makes you something of a sociopath, iirc. Certainly your track record backs that up your lack of action to resolve these sort of issues since 2006. Yes we expect things to be backwards compatible, as every computer customer has since the 1950s. Explain to JamesMoody THAT's always been 90-95% of the job function of a software engineer. We also expect reasonable performance from running a TRS2006 route on a newish 3.7 GHz quad-core, high-end Nvidia Gcard system with RAM to burn... not staggers and pauses and unexpected delays. Nor do we expect to see the same performance issues we asked for remediation of back in June.
// Frank

(Continued)

Actually....you don't speak for me nor quite a few others. I personally don't have any problems with TS12 or N3V personal.
 
(Last, whew! Continuation)
My personal view is that Trainz has evolved rather than been planned out
Absolutely true. Or more accurately, there was a plan, and it did not survive the encounter with the enemy (to steal a good phrase.) Each individual version of Trainz is carefully planned out, and certain systems have long-term plans, but to claim that we know exactly what we'll be doing in another 10 years is completely rubbish. We'll take it as it comes. Generalization is easy (we'll improve graphics, make the DLS more robust, add some key gameplay features, etc.) but as to what we'll be doing on this day in ten years time? No idea.
chris
(PLANS NEVER DO, when meeting an enemy--that's why they're called the enemy!) BUT for those of us more used to the gauntlet of design reviews and revision and re-presentations of planning/designs in a cycle of refined plannig and then working the until the modification of the plan is set only after input by 12-50 others-- your planning (and production) is obviously missing MANY things we feel should have 'never' occured, or missing things which should have not been overlooked. 'The back channel allegations' are you really don't even listen well to your Beta testers, or ship too soon, letting many things go that they should have caught. That's most popular with those fond of opining you are arrogant and don't listen... where's the truth? Maybe your co-workers know.

I only know I'm shocked by the lack of important user feature boosts since TRS2006--and none of those 'important omissions' included a proper prioritization behind better graphics, nor speed tree friviolities and such. TS2009 has a few pleasant, upgrades, which are offset by the head-scratchers which remain. TANE's graphics with a badly performaning predecessor version makes me want shove that idea TOO, basically we're not all that trusting anymore, and NOW should be fixed before departing down a new departure path. TANE also means increased difficulty in producing assets and the likely failure of trying to maintain a dynamic freely modeled environment with all the new demands such new asset modeling is likely to impose on the game play. Alas, to me you've all but ignored the needs of the way most of us spend our time... working on routes. And the efficiency questions have been totally set aside, or SP2 would have fixed the stupid pauses.

The problem is most of their code relies on the old index methods against the files out on disk and the rest relies on the SQLite database. It’s a problem of inconsistency in data stores and really the amount of thrashing they put the disk subsystem through is pretty awful.

This is fairly accurate. We suffer pretty hard for maintaining on-disk compatibility with a system that was written at a time when 10 baseboards was a big route, and 256MB was a lot of memory, and direct filesystem access to the custom content was a requirement by our users. I don't think that anyone is under any illusions about the need to overhaul this, although ironically it's going to happen at around the same time as hardware actually makes this approach a lot faster (no more seek delays, yay!)
chris

We solved that problem in '89-'91, 24 years ago for what now underlies Oracle's Tech. You don't need new hardware advances, just a better software approach. Had you read the 'tea leaves'/hints better back in July, we could have had this fixed by October if you'd bothered to ask. Got Skype? Moody has my direct email.

Further, I demolished that argument in JULY, when we kicked your ass over eliminating remarks. Render a copy of the the config as org.config.txt or something, alter to the new model, and compile the asset into a 'JA analog' and get over all this need to check, recheck and cross-check, translate, re-translate ad infinitum. Work smart, not work the HDD's hard. Keep that 'brief validation' to testing to your binary versions only--I'd back up modulo-4 in rotation. That gives two unsollied safety copies if you do it right, and with a transactions file, and a backup on exit copy of the CRC reference file, one should be able to recover gracefully even on a power outage corruption of the DB.

THEN we wouldn't have this kind of issue, you would read faster, and don't have to concern yourself with corrupted source files, which seems to be the only justifiable reason I can rationalize for these validations. Take 32 or 64 bit CRC on a source directory, take others on JA's and Library files, et. al. and save each somewhere and copy all those to a backup when TADdaemon exits. Then when concerned, do a fast check if there's reason for doubt. Otherwise, let sleeping dogs lie... meaning trust the file structure and data. Especially if you compile into a JA cabinet file type. Your check sums do the main work. Neither would we have to wait 6-12 hours for SP's and HFs and all the other insane practices that drive customers off. //Frank

You could show lots and lots of diagrams and arguments to Chris but in the end I’m afraid he’s not interested in hearing opinions outside his own dev. Team. This can all be fixed pretty easily and would actually help Trainz but as a comedian has said “You can’t fix stupid!”
It's true, you can't.

(See how easy that was. Still wonder why I don't bother repeating answers that have been explained several times over?)
Chris
Veddy Veddy... Interesting that you would agree that you are difficult to reach and teach. If you are aware of it, why am I trying so hard to make the point? Now you know why I accost you so seldom when I really want to drop kick you over and over from Brisbane to Sydney and back again for blowing it so spectacularly at least ten times a week. Fortunately I'm not a violent person, but the fantasy is recurring! I wish I'd had the opportunity to be a game programmer... in point of fact I'm jealous... and resent every time I detect things that cost me time or extra effort as shouldn't. So do we all. // Frank

Unfortunately, it's very easy to say things like "fixed pretty easily" if you're not the person responsible. Underestimating the effort required to maintain a system which involves many, many stakeholders with varying requirements is a very common issue, and programmers tend to be the worst at this. Ever heard something like "Oh, that old crud? Just rewrite it, it'll only take a few weeks"? I assume that you're familiar with the fallacy in that line of thinking.
Chris
I am, and I for one consistently make a good faith time estimate then bid it x6, which seems to work out for me. However, that particular commentator has a rather deep understanding of software, software design, and such bids, as he runs his own company and employs more people than N3V, Auran-rump, and the Edelman's law firm combined. // Frank
REFACTORED ON TOPIC MATERIAL TO THE TOP of the source thread...

Perhaps. However, you should also keep in mind that:

* In this thread, well in advance of your post, we've already identified specific issues that we'd like to investigate further.
* We have a major project underway to overhaul the Trainz engine, specifically to bring it up to date for modern workloads.

If that's "arrogance" and "lack of focus" then so be it.

In short, a comment like that makes you an ass and comes across more than a little ageist. Not saying you're stupid or don't make occasional useful input, but turning everything into personal attacks against myself and my colleagues doesn't help anything and has actively lead to you being banned from our wiki. I find that a real shame personally, because you were one of the more active wiki editors and we want to see more wiki activity, but if you spend as much of your time attacking what we do as you do making yourself useful, then we don't have much time for you.

chris
And we've come full circle and covered all the rejoinders // Frank
 
Frank - Seems like your experiences are not the same as others in some cases (including me). However, the way you handle things is not helping I'm afraid, as there are right and wrong ways of handling things like this.

Also, whenever I've dealt with N3V, apart from a couple of instances I've not run into any issues with them. I've found that when it comes to bugs, a clear and concise explanation helps (usually including an image/video) - that's how I got one of the patcher bugs fixed.

Shane
 
Last edited:
Frank - Seems like your experiences are not the same as others in some cases (including me). However, the way you handle things is not helping I'm afraid, as there are right and wrong ways of handling things like this.

Also, whenever I've dealt with N3V, apart from a couple of instances I've not run into any issues with them. I've found that when it comes to bugs, a clear and concise explanation helps (usually including an image/video) - that's how I got one of the patcher bugs fixed.

Shane
Unfortunately there are those who do have problem's and when ever they have their say they are beaten back down by those who don't, Why cant he stand up for a game he obviously love's and have his say ? without those who don't have a problem having their say. There is a thread for those who are not having drama's and this isnt it Shane. I wont go anywhere near TS12 SP1 till it has become a hell of a lot easier to get working then it is now.
Most just want to play the game why should you have to go thru the hassle of fixing sum-one's mistakes before the game even starts ?. Stick it up em Frank as i'm sure there are a few who are behind you.
Cheers Mick.
 
Unfortunately there are those who do have problem's and when ever they have their say they are beaten back down by those who don't

Gawpo's comment would fall into this category.

Frank has brought up a few aspects of the software that affect me as well. Indeed he has raised these concerns in a slightly more enthusiastic tone than is usual around here, but these are valid observations and questions, not some kid trying to start some drama.
 
Oh, matruck, thanks for saying that! This has really been bugging me, and I have no right saying anything in this thread because it's all way over my head. Clearly many, many people are not happy. Frank only wants what we all want.

Cheers....Rick
 
What Frank didn't say though in this thread is that he's also been banned from Wiki editing due to his negative comments towards N3V staff (which can be seen on their relevant talk pages or the edit pages). I can see where Frank is coming from, but I still feel he is going about it the wrong way and causing himself (and potentially others) problems in the process. I have nothing against the comments themselves in principle, but rather how they are being made.

Shane

EDIT: I'd personally like to see some solution to the validation problem, but ranting about it is not the answer. What's needed is a repro case.
 
Last edited:
What Frank didn't say though in this thread is that he's also been banned from Wiki editing due to his negative comments towards N3V staff (which can be seen on their relevant talk pages or the edit pages). I can see where Frank is coming from, but I still feel he is going about it the wrong way and causing himself (and potentially others) problems in the process. I have nothing against the comments themselves in principle, but rather how they are being made.
Who give's a toss where he has been banned from Shane let him have his say. What are you anyway sum kind of Mod thinking you can beat sumone down with threats of trouble in the future if they do not be quite about a game they are passionate about, If what is being said here isn't to your liking Shane then go moderate another thread.
 
I'm more concerned about N3V's possible action towards him as a result of this thread, especially as WindWalkr (the other party) does have the ability of banning him completely. As I said before though, there are better ways of dealing with issues that are not likely to result in him having further problems with N3V. I know that James Moody is also not happy over some of Frank's comments as well, so Frank may be on a slippery slope. I've got nothing against Frank, but I don't want him to get banned from the community either as a result of his comments.

Shane
 
Who give's a toss where he has been banned from Shane let him have his say. What are you anyway sum kind of Mod thinking you can beat sumone down with threats of trouble in the future if they do not be quite about a game they are passionate about, If what is being said here isn't to your liking Shane then go moderate another thread.

Is there really any need for that? Shane isn't thinking he's a mod, he's just stating a fact. There's a right and a wrong way to go about doing things. It doesn't matter if what is being said here is right or not, if it's being done in the wrong manner then they can get into trouble. Abusing the staff is the wrong way to do things.

Also, when did he 'beat someone down with threats of trouble'? :hehe:
 
Is there really any need for that? Shane isn't thinking he's a mod, he's just stating a fact. There's a right and a wrong way to go about doing things. It doesn't matter if what is being said here is right or not, if it's being done in the wrong manner then they can get into trouble. Abusing the staff is the wrong way to do things.

Also, when did he 'beat someone down with threats of trouble'? :hehe:
Yeah there is a need for it as Shane stick's his nose in just about every thread when it's not warranted he isnt a Moderator but yet act's like one. Kind of hard to get your point across that sum thing is not right when the like's of Shane continually re-driect the attention away.
 
Yeah there is a need for it as Shane stick's his nose in just about every thread when it's not warranted he isnt a Moderator but yet act's like one. Kind of hard to get your point across that sum thing is not right when the like's of Shane continually re-driect the attention away.

Shane doesn't act like a moderator, and only "sticks his nose in" in an attempt to straighten things out and cool the situation down. There's absolutely no need for personal attacks. This is a forum, everyone is entitled to and allowed to comment on whichever thread they want, whether it is 'warranted' or not. Shane isn't the sort of person who starts millions of threads on every subject possible so I've no idea what the problem is. He is a good man with good intentions who wants to help, so how about we show a bit of respect?
 
Not sure where you got that idea from. I am simply concerned that the way Frank is going about things in this thread is going to make things worse between him and N3V (and from what I've seen already in other threads, things are already strained as it is) Sometimes one has to see the bigger picture.

Shane

EDIT: I know it may not be my business but I would rather not lose anyone from the community as a result of their comments. I have seen other members going the same way in the past, and I know that Frank did previously get temporarily banned from the forums. I just don't want to see that becoming a permanent ban, and I'm sure you probably don't either.
 
Last edited:
Shane doesn't act like a moderator, and only "sticks his nose in" in an attempt to straighten things out and cool the situation down. There's absolutely no need for personal attacks. This is a forum, everyone is entitled to and allowed to comment on whichever thread they want, whether it is 'warranted' or not. Shane isn't the sort of person who starts millions of threads on every subject possible so I've no idea what the problem is. He is a good man with good intentions who wants to help, so how about we show a bit of respect?
I made no personal attack so don't put word's in my mouth thanks muchly, If you or Shane do not agree with what's being said he then go else where where the reading is more to your liking. Frank deserves to be heard whether you Shane or anyone else here like's it or not.
 
Surely they are men enough not to ban a person just for criticizing them? Maybe not. For Frank's backers, let's try to keep our cool. Let's not give anyone a reason for shutting this down until we've heard what he has to say. For me TS12 was fine (too stupid to notice the problems?), and although I have an install with the updates I never use it, and might as well get rid of it. Thankfully it's also offline, so I have not had to go through all this crap. Sometimes I wonder what was the real reason behind all the "fixes".

Cheers...Rick
 
So in conclusion, without even reading the mind-numbing posts above, in typical fashion Frank will complain things are not his way and that anyone who disagrees is obviously young and incapable of understanding him and constantly re-assert himself as 'software savvy', 'computer engineer', 'software expert' etc etc etc until he gets banned.

Mark my words; this thread will go nowhere.
 
Frank is a pretty savvy guy; he seems to know his stuff and has pointed out some specific flaws in the program. In person, he's good company, and not at all the over bearing 'bull in a china shop' he seems to be in the forums. Unfortunately, he does like to 'break stuff'. Well, it's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it!
 
Back
Top