Trainz and DRM

norfolksouthern37 said:
I don't recall arguing with anyone. This has been more observing and asking (also answering) questions in my view. My initial post in this thread was to say you had outlined your points very well and that little could be added to that - and to suggest you look into KS a bit more before making the kinds of statements you were. Since then you have not only added but repeated and made your point many times.

You did ask some good questions, why not wait for an answer to them without all the wild speculation? Why bring your thread to near irreparable silliness with the attacks and constant chant of anti-DRM? I mean like it or not you will get an answer. It doesn't matter how many times you say you will not support them.
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Based on that, I guess, you're right. Something that *might* have prevented a lot of debate here, would be to accept the gospel of Kickstarter. Evidently, it's inappropriate to assume that a company that must beg for money on KS is financially unhealthy. Fine. But, the only reason I made that assumption - apart from the fact that Auran went tits up once - is that, people who have the money don't have to beg for money.

Okay, so I'll give you that KS doesn't necessarily indicate financial unhealthiness.
 
amigacooke said:
Except for Richard Garriott of course.

10 richest people in the gaming industry

Shroud of the Avatar
Click to expand...

Cool guy. Even if an exception to the rule, please, keep sharing examples of video game entrepreneurs who've made millions if not billions off of the backs of folks who fell for their product (enforced via DRM, in many if not most cases.) I'll raise you a Gabe Newell and a Mike Harrington of Steam, just for a start.

Hey, just like Chris (Windwalkr) of N3V pointed out, it's great (he never mentioned as long as you're not the customer.) Who can dispute that?
 
RRSignal said:
Cool guy. Even if an exception to the rule, please, keep sharing examples of video game entrepreneurs who've made millions if not billions off of the backs of folks who fell for their product (enforced via DRM, in many if not most cases.) I'll raise you a Gabe Newell and a Mike Harrington of Steam, just for a start.

Hey, just like Chris (Windwalkr) of N3V pointed out, it's great (he never mentioned as long as you're not the customer.) Who can dispute that?
Click to expand...

Don't buy the product if it offends you that much. You claim to own a business. What are you making off the backs of others?*
This is a video game to amuse, not a forced way of life.
 
Help! You guys now have me totally confused after reading the thread. I have never had a program as far as I know that uses this"DRM". MY wife and I travel a lot and in a lot of areas there is no internet connection other than verizon or wifi and a lot of times not even then. If a program has DRM do you have to have an internet connection to run it at all or can it be configured to run the base program without a connection to the internet? By this I mean could I run Trainz on my computer but just not be able to use cm to download or update anything? You can't download or update anything without the internet anyway, so whats the differance? As far as Microsoft, or for that matter any other company, is concerened I've never had any of their stuff refuse to run because I didn't have a connection, unless I made a hardware change and to me that is understandable as I've changed the system configuration, and usually a phone call works. If I couldn't run trainz at all without a connection then I could see a problem for me, if there was not a workaround, that does,nt mean I wouldn't support it, just something else to deal with. As far as all other arguments, we are dealing with software and computer companies, what can I say! I,ve been pulling what little hair I have left out starting with the Commodore 64. Any more it doesn't seem to be a matter of trust, just a matter of how bad is it going to be.
 
sparky15 said:
Don't buy the product if it offends you that much. You claim to own a business. What are you making off the backs of others?*
This is a video game to amuse, not a forced way of life.
Click to expand...

Nothing* But I do have an investment, in terms of the game itself*, content*, and what I've created myself*.

Was it really possible* that you missed* this or is that fact that you're* an Apple* user* that you expect this kind of thing*?
 
GeorgeCW said:
Help! You guys now have me totally confused after reading the thread. I have never had a program as far as I know that uses this"DRM". MY wife and I travel a lot and in a lot of areas there is no internet connection other than verizon or wifi and a lot of times not even then. If a program has DRM do you have to have an internet connection to run it at all or can it be configured to run the base program without a connection to the internet? By this I mean could I run Trainz on my computer but just not be able to use cm to download or update anything? You can't download or update anything without the internet anyway, so whats the differance? As far as Microsoft, or for that matter any other company, is concerened I've never had any of their stuff refuse to run because I didn't have a connection, unless I made a hardware change and to me that is understandable as I've changed the system configuration, and usually a phone call works. If I couldn't run trainz at all without a connection then I could see a problem for me, if there was not a workaround, that does,nt mean I wouldn't support it, just something else to deal with. As far as all other arguments, we are dealing with software and computer companies, what can I say! I,ve been pulling what little hair I have left out starting with the Commodore 64. Any more it doesn't seem to be a matter of trust, just a matter of how bad is it going to be.
Click to expand...

Excellent questions George, and the purpose for this thread...to get answers from N3V as to their intended implementation of DRM in future trainz products.

To answer atleast one question; It depends on the form of DRM, and how stricktly it is implemented, as to whether or not it will be useable without an internet connection...and until/unless an N3V representative replies to this thread, or any of the numerous others, no one will know until they pay for a product that may end up being useless to them.
 
GeorgeCW said:
Help! You guys now have me totally confused after reading the thread. I have never had a program as far as I know that uses this"DRM". MY wife and I travel a lot and in a lot of areas there is no internet connection other than verizon or wifi and a lot of times not even then. If a program has DRM do you have to have an internet connection to run it at all or can it be configured to run the base program without a connection to the internet? By this I mean could I run Trainz on my computer but just not be able to use cm to download or update anything? You can't download or update anything without the internet anyway, so whats the differance? As far as Microsoft, or for that matter any other company, is concerened I've never had any of their stuff refuse to run because I didn't have a connection, unless I made a hardware change and to me that is understandable as I've changed the system configuration, and usually a phone call works. If I couldn't run trainz at all without a connection then I could see a problem for me, if there was not a workaround, that does,nt mean I wouldn't support it, just something else to deal with. As far as all other arguments, we are dealing with software and computer companies, what can I say! I,ve been pulling what little hair I have left out starting with the Commodore 64. Any more it doesn't seem to be a matter of trust, just a matter of how bad is it going to be.
Click to expand...

Short answer-DRM has nothing to do with anything you can or can't do with your software.. Oh, wait, it's everything. lol.

It's all about whether you are ALLOWED to run it or some part of it. You can have all the disks, a million dollars worth of add-ons, but it you cannot connect to the internet for the company (N3V) to say "yes" then neither the game nor any of the content can run period, finish, no matter who you are. FOR THE RECORD, the current level of DRM only applies to official N3V content as issued so far. Don't suggest that said DRM might be extended in the future, lest you be treated as a heretic.
 
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RRSignal said:
Nothing* But I do have an investment, in terms of the game itself*, content*, and what I've created myself*.

Was it really possible* that you missed* this or is that fact that you're* an Apple* user* that you expect this kind of thing*?
Click to expand...

Still a video game you're losing sleep over.*
 
We have intentionally been staying out of this thread to see where it headed and what spectrum of views would be offered. We will most certainly be providing information about our decisions on DRM prior to and in the T2 project. Lot's of information has not yet been released, so this is not a standpoint against DRM. There will be time after Nov 13 to further debate the issues prior to closing of the project.

Meanwhile, it would be good to avoid the personal issues here
 
Thanks for the response Tony, given the opportunity to make an informed choice before installing should negate the need for any complaint later.

For the record , my DRM protected software includes the use of USB dongles, Flexlm/RLM license servers and some node-locked software that remote server checks on startup [ not all though ] forewarned is forearmed, the need for DRM was clearly explained before install.

I would like to able to play offline, that's my only issue.

Nothing else to say here :)
 
Tony_Hilliam said:
We have intentionally been staying out of this thread to see where it headed and what spectrum of views would be offered. We will most certainly be providing information about our decisions on DRM prior to and in the T2 project. Lot's of information has not yet been released, so this is not a standpoint against DRM. There will be time after Nov 13 to further debate the issues prior to closing of the project.

Meanwhile, it would be good to avoid the personal issues here
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Thank You Tony, for acknowleding the discussion, and providing a bit of information, and a tentative time frame for answers.
 
Bit of a no answer really. T2 Project close, Hmmm due December 2014, Guess we won't find out about this issue till mid next year. I guess its best to keep the negative news out of the lime light for as long as possible.

Cheers

Lots
 
Lots_Trains said:
Bit of a no answer really. T2 Project close, Hmmm due December 2014, Guess we won't find out about this issue till mid next year. I guess its best to keep the negative news out of the lime light for as long as possible.

Cheers

Lots
Click to expand...
That's always assuming Tony didn't mean the close of the pledging period. DRM is a live issue when it comes to video games projects on KickStarter and I don't think that N3V will be able to get away with not making their position on DRM clear before the pledging period closes.
 
G'day, like some people my PC with trainz on is never connected to the internet so implementation of DRM would be a problem for us, then you have those on fixed/low incomes who tend to only turn on the internet when necessary or have no internet, DRM would be a problem for them.
Then you have those who will not use games that are on "steam" and the like they are very unlikely to accept DRM. Just these three situations would cover quite a few people and I would think the majority would not be inclined to come on board for this very reason.
Just my humble opinion.
Regards
Barrie
 
Tony_Hilliam said:
We have intentionally been staying out of this thread to see where it headed and what spectrum of views would be offered. We will most certainly be providing information about our decisions on DRM prior to and in the T2 project. Lot's of information has not yet been released, so this is not a standpoint against DRM. There will be time after Nov 13 to further debate the issues prior to closing of the project.

Meanwhile, it would be good to avoid the personal issues here
Click to expand...

My only concern with this Tony is that after Nov 13th it may be to late to get a definitive answer for some. There are many out there like myself who have not really contributed to this debate but have a need to see the answers given. I have had some very negative issues with DRM in the past - and I have watched here to see what will happen with Trainz. Im one of those who bought a product in the past where the company went belly-up and the game was useless from that point on. So Im no fan of DRM. However Im also aware of why it was initially introduced, but like many others I think its gone to far. Some guidelines would be appreciated.
 
Whilst I dislike having to have a disk in one of my dvd/cd drives in order to play the game I'd put up with it, as I do with my old UK build 2370 version, if it means not having to be connected to an external server.

Once the game is loaded I can remove the disk if I want to use the drive for other purposes (rare). It usually stays in the drive, so to all intents and purposes it's almost as good as having the game launched from the hard drive.

N3V need to protect from piracy, but please don't shut out potential customers by putting up too many barriers.

There is no way I would consider an "always on" internet connection to use Trainz.:(
 
I've been trying to keep out of this thread today, since RRSignal seems to have it in for me. I will never understand why though, as I'm entitled to an opinion just like anyone else here.

As Tony has said though, it's worth waiting until November 13 to see what is said on Kickstarter.

I still feel though that the issue of DRM has been blown out of proportion by several members of this thread (I'm probably one of them).

That's all I'm going to say on that for now. As I've said before, I can work with some types of DRM, and not others (the ones I cannot work with are ones that tie you to a particular company like Apple or Amazon for example).

Shane

P.S. It doesn't help that I'm not what some would call 'normal' so I do react differently to most people when it comes to contentious topics.
 
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I want to lay an eggie too on the fringes of the dust :)
I choose to believe that N3V will not jeopardise trainz and disappoint thousands of fans by forcing something on us that we do not want .
Trainz is a quality fun game and costs to have it is fair and reasonable at the moment and should stay like that otherwise we will stop playing it .
Father time will tell, it always does.
Meanwhile I leave the sorting to the guys who understand what is going on and keep playing with what I have till the dust settles.
 
DRM protects everyone
The user who has purchased a legitimate game.
The creators of assets - be they free or payware and yes the company that actually owns the entire digital software program.
Remember, (we) the user have only paid for the right to use the software as per a ”User Agreement” and we actually do not own any of the software program.
The best that we can hope is that N3V do not hog-tie the new game down with an authentication/sign in process every time we use or re-install the game. I think this is where the argument should be focussed – DRM in some form is already there and in almost every form of digital media.
Look at Apple, Google & Microsoft products – Phone Apps etc – they literally know everything you do, when and where you are doing it and with whom – way too much information!
Butler57
 
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