Help? (Again, For a old timer :P )

kcdowdy

TCR Mod, TheKoolKid :)
Hey everyone.. Gah I wonder if I will see any old friends from here, It's been AGES since I've come back and I'm looking to buy a rail simulator ;) Soon.

So.. What is better for making routes? Can anyone breakdown the differences between Trainz 2010 and Railworks? Also, What's happened to the download station and I hear something about 2006 version is not supported? :(.

Anyway, I"m going to be searching some more, Any help is greatly appreciated.

Basically... What's going on..? And also, The old smilies still exist! :mop::mop:
 
Welcome back then.

Can't say anything for Railworks, there seems to be a bit of a Marmite attitude towards it, love it or hate it. Personally, I'm on TS09 at present and find that it is fantastic for route building, limited more by available content (which to be honest, isn't really a limitation given the tens of thousands of free items out there and even more if you include payware) and your own imagination, than anything else.

Granted, there are a lot of negative posts about the majority of versions but I would guess there are at least as many who never post because they don't have any problems.

Support now only goes back as far as TS09. It is still possible to download content from the DLS for earlier versions as long as you purchase a First Class Ticket (I think that's the deal but I stand corrected if not). It isn't possible however, to upload new content for pre TS09 versions.

All in all, I'm a happy user. I'm sure there are more who will agree and those who will say otherwise. As an alternative to taking up vast quantities of space in my small flat with a model railway, Trainz is great.

Hope that's some food for thought.
 
So.. What is better for making routes? Can anyone breakdown the differences between Trainz 2010 and Railworks? Also, What's happened to the download station and I hear something about 2006 version is not supported? :(.

Ok, but this topic will end up being flamed heavily - there are a lot of users on these forums that cannot bear to hear anything but 'trainz is perfect'.

Route Creation:

Trainz is the better of the two here - barely. While railworks has built-in DEM support and splines work more reliably in it, it has some serious issues with stability - trackwork wil often 'vanish' myseriously when you save, leaving you with invisible track that should be visible, and the only option is to delete it. Junctions in railworks are prettier, but far more difficult to form - there are very limited angles where you can approach the track and it form a junction, also your mouse clicks have to be very precise for it to determine that you want a junction rather than crossing track.

Edit:

I meant to write more here about why I say 'barely'... Trainz' route creation is on the whole easier than Railworks, however, there are some lingering annoyances, such as trying to delete trackwork can often result in the wrong piece of track being deleted, and there are occasions where 'undo' doesn't exactly work. There are occasions where adding a piece of track results in it actually placing the track running off to infinity, and in a way that cannot be selected or deleted.

Also, working to realism and DEMs/Overlays involves buying TransDEM, which for someone that has no income like myself is actually horribly expensive - it costs as much as SnC did. There's also no way to try it to see if it actually does anything that you will benefit from. Roland of course has a right to ask money for it, it's his choice, but it does mean that Railworks with its built-in DEM support has an advantage there.

End Edit

Graphical Quality:

Here's a little less easy to say. Theoretically, trainz has the upper hand, as railworks has real problems with any textures above 1024x1024, and will very rapidly crash if you have too many large textures (as ikesmith's WD 2-8-0 and ROD 2-8-0 models proved). However, there is something more gritty and realistic about Railworks' visuals. It's very likely that it's an issue of the shaders, Railworks uses Direct3D shaders quite extensively, and the metal shaders provide a fairly realistic metal look, Trainz on the other hand is still mostly based on a 10+ year old OpenGL rendering model that lacks the realism of modern shaders.

Off-track scenery however is flat and uninspiring in Railworks, trees are billboarded, and don't look anywhere near as realistic as well-configured Speedtrees. When moving billboarded trees look bad, very bad.

The two are kind of diametric opposites in a sense, since trainz does a good job of looking good from a distance but looks plastic-y when you get close the action, whereas Railworks looks good close-up, but starts to look terrible as you zoom out for a wider look (this is somewhat route dependant, Newcastle-York Modern looks pretty fantastic zoomed out).

Quantity of Assets:

No competition here, Trainz has thousands more. Railworks has a very limited set of freeware assets, especially for rolling stock, but also scenery objects pale in comparison to Trainz. Rolling-stock wise, you WILL be paying, and expect to pay into the several hundred pound area to have enough of an assortment to model any specific region/era.

While TS2010 lacks freeware UK steam assets badly, you can at least buy a handful with the SnC pack, which is very reasonably priced compared to it's Railworks counterpart (WCML North offers less route, and only 1 new locomotive for a higher price than SnC 2009).

Driving Experience:

Railworks wins here, sadly. Consistant cabs and quantity of camera positions without hacks makes RW far more enjoyable while driving. Driving in trainz always involves setting some junctions by hand, no matter how hard you try. There is simply no equivalent to the ability to enter a timetable by stations and have the computer control the switching, unless you want to simply watch trainz' AI drive, which isn't really driving now is it?.

By default Railworks has AWS and other features enabled, whereas trainz will require third party rules added to a session to achieve anything similar, along with knowledge of the railway rules relevant to AWS, speed limits and signalling. Railworks 'just works' in this sense.

That said, Railworks' session creation can be frustrating, the AI is far dumber than trainz' AI, and creating drivable sessions with any AI presence requires experience and some trial-and-error. Often you can't even achieve what you really want, and have to compromise to get the AI to let you fit around it. Once you understand the railway operating procedures, and have mapped out the junctions and paths, trainz can provide far more rewarding sessions.

The quality of cab views in trainz is generally rubbish in comparision to Railworks, this is true of default AND third party locomotives. Although some freeware Railworks locomotives lack cabs, there are also many trainz locomotives that lack cabs. Sadly, since trainz lacks the quantity of camera views, a missing cab in trains is far more painful, as you cannot fall back on 'external looking-out-of-the-cab-window' mode that railworks provides even if a cab isn't available. Cabs *can* be made to look good in trainz, the steam engines in SnC prove that, but it seems to be something that many content creators don't care at all about.

A comparision of the default class 37 cabs on railworks and trainz shows just how bad the two compare, and bear in mind that RSC even went and released an updated class 37 later, which has a better cab still.

Railworks:



Trainz 2010:



Physics:

Railworks claims to have a better physics engine, and on the surface of things it may appear so. However, railwork's physics engine is hampered by long-standing (since RailSimulator) bugs that will likely never be fixed since RSC isn't interested in fixing things that aren't direct revenue sources.

Trainz' might not have the collisions of Railworks, but at least wagons don't jump in the air when you nudge into them at 1mph. There are notorious bugs in Railworks that result in such wonderful features as trains that accelerate by 20mph instantly when you release the brakes (even with 0% throttle), trains that can accelerate uphill with 1% throttle, and carriages/wagons that move by themselves.

Future Abilities:

Trainz wins here. There are only a few of the trainz flaws that cannot be overcome easily - noticably camera views and the ability for the simulator to handle switching for the driver, both of these need Auran's attention - all the rest can be improved by the userbase. Railworks isn't nearly as user-extendable, and since RSC are unable/unwilling to fix many issues, many problems with Railworks will remain there til the end of time.

Do not be fooled by the release on friday of 'Railworks 2' by the way, it is merely the same Railworks with a new 'casual player friendly' user interface for the cab controls. Functionality has not improved at all, and it is in no sense a 'new game'. The 'footy fans' over at UKTS love to point out that 'other companies do that, EA's NHL hasn't changed since 1998', but this ignores that those companies DO change their products for new releases. While hockey the sport hasn't changed since 1998, EA's hockey game has, significantly. Railworks has not.

Overall:

I'm not sure there's an overall winner, they're both good at some things, lousy at others, Trainz most certainly is more flexible and CAN be made to be better overall than Railworks (with minimal time investment by Auran, but a lot more by content creators). If you do opt for Railworks, make sure your credit card can handle it, you WILL need to buy a lot of 3rd party addons, regardless of how much you tell yourself 'I don't have to own every addon'.
 
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How is the sound in 2010? The last version of Trainz I bought was 2006 and myself and a lot of other people weren't too impressed with some of the sound problems ie. it didn't matter whether you were inside or outside the cab the engine sound level didn't change, which was annoying if you were driving a big diesel with a whisper cab and the noise of the engine drowned out everything else!:(

:cool:
 
How is the sound in 2010? The last version of Trainz I bought was 2006 and myself and a lot of other people weren't too impressed with some of the sound problems ie. it didn't matter whether you were inside or outside the cab the engine sound level didn't change, which was annoying if you were driving a big diesel with a whisper cab and the noise of the engine drowned out everything else!:(

:cool:

It hasn't changed much, if at all. However, I believe that one of the chinese engines (probably one of Ocemy's since he is consistantly showing everyone just how well trainz can work) demonstrated that it's possible to have seperate sounds internally and externally for the cab, thus it is yet another of those aspects that the community can go somewhere towards fixing by applying a little cunning.

Auran will need to intervene for things like doppler and proper occlusion (inside/outside occlusion like this is one thing, but being able to hear the difference as another engine drives behind a shed will require proper occlusion simulation).
 
That's a shame, I've been running FSX and when you're in the cockpit you can barely hear the engines but switch to external view and you get the full sound. I love Trainz but the sound leaves a lot to be desired and at the end of the day it's all about the immersive experience.;)

:cool:
 
OT: @Sunfrog: FSX has a separate volume control for "internal sound" (or something like that). If you adjust it, you can bring up the Cockpit Sounds to the level where they will all but drown out the radios and such. In most real aircraft, there is enough sound deadening in the cockpit area so that one would expect that being outside would be much louder than inside.

Bill
 
And that's my gripe with Trainz, the cab noise shouldn't be as loud as the external engine noise (steam is different of course). Oh well it might get fixed one day....I just wont hold my breath in the mean time!:D

:cool:
 
Oh, definitely. I've driven a steam engine (and a diesel, for that matter) and I agree that steam is different. The diesel was just a little yard job, and had no real distance between the cab and the motor so noise levels were pretty high. The steamer was different - the noise outside was actually quieter than the cab unless you were standing by the tracks when it went by.

Modern computers all have pretty sophisticated sound chips (or cards) and multi-channel mixers are the norm. There is no reason why gaming companies (and I mean pretty much all of them) can't assign sounds to various mixer channels and let the consumer raise/lower volume on individual channels as they wish. Some companies are good at this, some aren't.

Bill
 
I'm not sure what you mean by "buy on steam". If you are referring to the gaming site called "Steam" then I would advise against it. Auran deals fairly well with problems and introducing yet another level of support (Steam) into the mix would not help matters.

I bought a game called "The Ship" which required a Steam account or the game would not run. After receiving a lot of spam that had to be generated for my newly-created email account specifically to be used with Steam, I gave up and killed my account (both the Steam account and the email address). A few times, when I tried to start the game, I would be told that the servers (at Steam, presumably) were down and that I couldn't run the game. Initially creating my account asked for a lot of personal details that I thought the company had no right knowing - but you couldn't select "Don't want to answer" as a choice.

Your mileage may vary.

Bill
 
Payware is great ... but there are thousands of freeware assets.

I am using TRS2006 presently ... contemplating 09/10 soon.

PM me if you need TRS2006 advise
 
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I would NOT advise you to buy on Steam. Lots of reasons for this, one being the fact that the service packs don't apply to Steam version. Besides, why not buy it directly from Auran.com? No extra business links.
 
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