Why upload with things missing ?

[dzien50]

Hi All

First off, I truely admire all the hard work and dedication that creators put in making items for us all to use.

However in particular when it comes to locos and rolling stock why so often are there vital bits missing that are not on the DLS and no ref as to where to find them ?

I don't understand computer programming but to me if I could create something I would check before uploading it that everything was available on the DLS, so often bogies are missing like on todays upload of the NSWGR coaches.

Obviously the creator knows where these missing assets are so why can't he/she add them to the DLS or give a direct link to where they are or use assets that are already on the DLS

Cheers
PJ

 

[pcas1986]

Hi All

First off, I truely admire all the hard work and dedication that creators put in making items for us all to use.

However in particular when it comes to locos and rolling stock why so often are there vital bits missing that are not on the DLS and no ref as to where to find them ?

I don't understand computer programming but to me if I could create something I would check before uploading it that everything was available on the DLS, so often bogies are missing like on todays upload of the NSWGR coaches.

Obviously the creator knows where these missing assets are so why can't he/she add them to the DLS or give a direct link to where they are or use assets that are already on the DLS

Cheers
PJ

It's not that simple. I recently uploaded a loco where all the assets not built by me appeared to be either on the DLS or built in. For example, some versions of couplers, hoses, lamps etc had their asset kuids updated for the Settle and Carlisle pack. If you didn't have that pack then the referenced kuids would have appeared to be missing. The more experienced creators and uploaders will know about these things and often use beta testers to try and avoid errors.

Professional developers have QA teams to validate their creations. An unpaid volunteer doing it by themselves is more likely to have those problems. It's one thing to alert the developer that assets are missing but complaining about it is something else.

It is not possible, either practically or morally, for developers to upload missing assets to the DLS when they are not the asset owner.

Trainz asset creation has little to do with software programming unless your asset has a unique script. Even for locos this is not always necessary.

 

[clam1952]

Afraid this question is constantly asked about on here, numerous threads, unfortunately not every Trainz user reads or even uses the forum and may not be aware there is a problem. Some apparently couldn't care less, for some it's an oversight. However, sometimes they are not always actually missing, try downloading the items again, often that will pull in the bits missed first time.

 

[NSWGR_46Class]

Are you talking about my content - if you are you, might want to know that the bogies were up loaded 3 days ago but for some reason only known to N3V the coaches have been approved and on the DLS before the bogies. Next time you might want to drop a polite PM to the content creator before you start this type of tommy rot thanks

Hi All

First off, I truely admire all the hard work and dedication that creators put in making items for us all to use.

However in particular when it comes to locos and rolling stock why so often are there vital bits missing that are not on the DLS and no ref as to where to find them ?

I don't understand computer programming but to me if I could create something I would check before uploading it that everything was available on the DLS, so often bogies are missing like on todays upload of the NSWGR coaches.

Obviously the creator knows where these missing assets are so why can't he/she add them to the DLS or give a direct link to where they are or use assets that are already on the DLS

Cheers
PJ

 

[dzien50]

I don't think its " TOMMY ROT " I am just expressing my opinion, I come from a pre computer age I sold my business and retired when i was 35 yrs old and long before computers were standard in offices or the home.

Trainz is in fact the only computer game I have ever played and this is only due to health reasons that I had to give up my " real " model railway. I only use my computer for news/sport, emails and Trainz and thats it.

I did state at the beginning of my post how I admire all the creators and my post was in fact a query from someone who does not understand in the slightest how computers/programmes etc work nor at my age do I have any interest in knowing I just would like things simple if possible.

So some of your replies have helped me to understand your problems

Cheers
PJ

 

[sniper297]

Way back in 2001 a guy named Bill Burnett, a self admitted computer dummy, started playing with the MSTS route editor occasionally posting screenshots of his work. There was a huge amount of interest and requests to upload the route, but he didn't have the technical skills to package it, and had no idea how to find out which assets he used were built in and which he had downloaded from somewhere - and he couldn't even remember where he got most of the non default assets to begin with. That's how I got to be "The god of coconuts", I had nothing to do with the creation of the Sea View route, that was all Bill's talent, all I did was sort out what went where and why so any n00b downloading it would have it work with no assembly required.

Artistic talent and technical skills are rarely found in the same brain, so sometimes you get introverts who create wonderful things but are too shy to ask for help in testing and packaging. To me that's the whole point of joining a trainsimmers community and sharing creations, it's not about who gets credit for what or who is famous and fawned over - it's about pooling together different talents to get an experience that no one person working alone could ever have. In other words like a model railroad club.

 

[johnwhelan]

Artistic talent and technical skills are rarely found in the same brain, so sometimes you get introverts who create wonderful things but are too shy to ask for help in testing and packaging. To me that's the whole point of joining a trainsimmers community and sharing creations, it's not about who gets credit for what or who is famous and fawned over - it's about pooling together different talents to get an experience that no one person working alone could ever have. In other words like a model railroad club.

Introverts are not necessarily shy, they do tend to reflect on things and internally mull things over which is a very useful attribute when creating. Often they have the patience you need to wade through content creation. They're kind of fun as well the intelligent ones can fake being extroverts but normally need a period of rest or adjustment afterwards. Extroverts basically need constant stimulation to stop falling asleep. However there are more than fifty characteristics that can be measured about the human mind not just introversion and extroversion.

As to the original question I think its been answered but if it hasn't then just remember when you create you include anything on your machine not just items on the DLS etc. As far as I am aware there isn't even a magic button to say only use items that are on the DLS. TC3/S&C items do you count them as built in or not? and there are some nice bogies in there as well as the new version of the couplings. Even with very through beta testers things do get missed and the best approach is to just post on the forum mentioning there is a problem.

Computer programming and content creation are quite different, though both can be frustrating at times. You also have to think about what motivates people to create content. Often its done for their own enjoyment. Ashburton layout for example was created in this way. It was released after several people made requests for it and yes it contained a number of items that weren't on the DLS. Requesting content creators do additional unpaid work to check that everything is available or restrict themselves to DLS content just increases the burden on the content creators. We have few enough of them as it is.

Cheerio John

 

[sniper297]

It is a valid point tho, for any n00b coming into the game over half the stuff you download needs some kind of repair or google the KUID, it would be far better if everything on the DLS worked out of the box instead of all this batteries not included some assembly required nonsense.

Example;

Burlington 4-6-0,<kuid:568725:100077>

Downloaded that, view dependencies;

Unknown Location: <kuid:96914:504840>
Unknown Location: <kuid:96914:504841>
Unknown Location: <kuid:96914:504842>
Unknown Location: <kuid:96914:54104>
Unknown Location: <kuid:96914:55201>
Not faulty: C-41 Engine
Not faulty: C-41 Steam

For a n00b that's impossible, he doesn't have the first clue where to start. Set the content filter for author = #96914 and I get lucky (if the author never uploaded anything to the DLS this won't work), it's bdaneal. So I go here;

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?292732-List-of-Trainz-Add-On-sites

And find the link for his website. Maybe I can download the unknown KUIDs, but more often than not on these 3rd party websites there's no organization, so you pretty much have to download a dozen different packages at random hoping some will include the KUIDs you're missing.

Again not really flaming anybody, what I'm driving at is that newcomers often find the whole thing baffling with good reason, the old salts are used to it so don't give it a second thought.

 

[pcas1986]

"Pre computer age" these days would make someone quite old since they were in use in the '50's if not earlier. I think Babbage's engine is deemed to be the first calculating machine. Google may prove me wrong. I've had a "personal" computer since the mid seventies - the first being a Texas Instruments 99/4. I learned rudimentary coding just so I had a game to play because in those days we had to write our own.

It takes a very wide range of skills to be a content/asset creator. It can be a challenge which what I like most about it since it keeps my decaying brain from ... decaying!

But back to the point the OP was trying to make. It sure would be nice if there was a validation tool for asset dependencies. I don't know what N3V's checking process is for new content but that isn't one of them.

 

[dzien50]

Since I started this I feel an obligation to respond to some of the comments. I think Sniper 297 has made some very good points especially about pooling skills and working together.

In reply to pcas1986 yes of course they have been around a long time but I am talking being in general everyday use which they were certainally not 25 yrs ago, also for instance the " barcode " system was invented around 1947 !! but did not become common useage until the late 70s/80s

I see my sons and grandchildren playing their computer games and have no problems what so ever. My intention with this thread was just try and find out/understand why downloading items was not a simple straightforward thing to do and can anything be done to make it easier, surely everyone would like to one click download something and it all be there complete

Cheers
PJ

 

[JCitron]

Since I started this I feel an obligation to respond to some of the comments. I think Sniper 297 has made some very good points especially about pooling skills and working together.

In reply to pcas1986 yes of course they have been around a long time but I am talking being in general everyday use which they were certainally not 25 yrs ago, also for instance the " barcode " system was invented around 1947 !! but did not become common useage until the late 70s/80s

I see my sons and grandchildren playing their computer games and have no problems what so ever. My intention with this thread was just try and find out/understand why downloading items was not a simple straightforward thing to do and can anything be done to make it easier, surely everyone would like to one click download something and it all be there complete

Cheers
PJ

PJ,

Even if you've used PCs since the mid-1980s, your grand kids will still be light years ahead. I've been a technician since 1982-1983. I've built some of the earliest computers and video terminals, fixed their motherboards, floppy drives, and even repaired early hard drives and controllers. Fast forward to this past July. I purchased one of those Android-based tablets. A nifty little device that has some cool features like browsing abilities, and being small enough not to take up too much space while traveling which is what I bought it for in the first place. Well I downloaded a couple of little free applications including Kindle software since I already own a Kindle. Two hours later, and I still couldn't figure out how to install the applications. I finally gave in and called my 12 year-old nephew. He came over and in less than 20 seconds he had the applications installed!

I too agree with Jim. Instead of people taking the high-road, we should all work together on things such as this. This not only helps the individual, it also is great for the community as well.

John

 

[sniper297]

I wish there was an easy answer, unfortunately some test, others don't, N3V attempted to help by having the 'bot for uploads kick back anything with unknown KUIDs for a while. It looks like they no longer do that, probably because there were so many false positives, IE kicking back 40 freight cars with one email for each about an unknown KUID - which was a bogey that had been on the DLS forever and was built in to all later versions.

Reading descriptions might help - no description or an incoherent misspelled description is sometimes a clue that you should pass it by, but sometimes you get content that doesn't work at all which includes a good description, simply because the reskinner who screwed it up just left the original description in the config file.

Best idea, make a notepad file and keep a list, whenever you download something that works out of the box add the author's name to the list, eventually you'll know what content is worth downloading just by looking at who uploaded it.

 

[chrisaw]

If something is made that requires built in assets from a particular version, it isn't the creators fault if N3V don't include those dependencies in a later version.

Chris.

 

[sniper297]

Where did THAT come from? As far as I know all the built in assets from previous versions that were left out of TS12 have been uploaded to the DLS and debugged long ago. Do you have a KUID number for one example of something made for a previous Trainz version, using content that was built into that version but is not available in later versions or from the DLS?

Maybe I missed something, but I thought the discussion was about assets on the DLS using dependencies that are not built in AND not available on the DLS, you can only get them from 3rd party websites because they have never been anywhere else. Like this;

Someone asked me to reskin a JointedRail F7 A and B set when I first got Trainz, so I did and then uploaded from TRS2004. I had no idea at the time that some of the dependencies were only available at JointedRail because it came in a single CDP package for a Great Northern F7 set, so to get the missing dependencies you have to get that set from JointedRail. If I HAD known about it I would have included that information in the description, but I learned from that and don't reskin stuff from 3rd party websites any more. With TS2010 content manager it's also possible to check dependencies easier than TRS2004.

Main thing here is that creators should keep a second copy of Trainz and set the content mangler filter for built in = false Location = Local, select all delete all so you have a "virgin" copy of Trainz to test stuff in. Save your route or loco to CDP WITHOUT DEPENDENCIES, only the one asset in the CDP file. Open the virgin copy of Trainz, import the CDP, and check dependencies. If there are any unknown KUIDs in the list find out where you got those and add that to the description before you upload it, or find alternate dependencies to replace them.

 

[boleyd]

Some people who make things are not doing a good job. They can create more headaches than the program does on its own. The new customer has a significant learning curve when it comes to the DLS. N3V could end up loosing new customers who simply do not want to spend time hunting stuff that SHOULD NOT be missing. I have begun to take that position. I do not like to hunt stuff since that is NOT why I bought the program. I went through that for awhile but now draw the line. I have a simple criteria that a missing dependency, whose source is not obvious, gets tossed. Another criteria, that works well for me, is that I do not download anything that is less than a certain file size depending upon what it is. A Barrel can be 100kb and look real good. A house that is that size looks like something from a cartoon show. I end up with buildings that are over 1mb in all cases. This insures two things. I get a close to reality asset and the author is usually more dedicated and provides all the goodies in her/his package. Now if re-skinning people would only take the time to properly paint an engine and its bogies that would add to my collection. But most look like toy trains with no detail/textured painting so they get tossed as well.

 

[johnwhelan]

Some people who make things are not doing a good job. They can create more headaches than the program does on its own. The new customer has a significant learning curve when it comes to the DLS. N3V could end up loosing new customers who simply do not want to spend time hunting stuff that SHOULD NOT be missing. I have begun to take that position. I do not like to hunt stuff since that is NOT why I bought the program. I went through that for awhile but now draw the line. I have a simple criteria that a missing dependency, whose source is not obvious, gets tossed. Another criteria, that works well for me, is that I do not download anything that is less than a certain file size depending upon what it is. A Barrel can be 100kb and look real good. A house that is that size looks like something from a cartoon show. I end up with buildings that are over 1mb in all cases. This insures two things. I get a close to reality asset and the author is usually more dedicated and provides all the goodies in her/his package. Now if re-skinning people would only take the time to properly paint an engine and its bogies that would add to my collection. But most look like toy trains with no detail/textured painting so they get tossed as well.

Thank you for showing your appreciation for the content creators produce for free. I would recommend you simply stick to the ipad version with its very controlled environment.

I find your building criteria interesting, you are aware that the same building created in 3DS / Blender in usually a much lower poly count than the same building created in sketchup to the same level of detail? Translation they run slower.

I assume you understand that the number of textures used has an impact on performance. Also that with TS2009 .jpg textures can be used as well as .tga which means the size of the texture file does not correlate exactly with the quality of the end result. Also there are techniques called tiling or even using the same bit of texture repeatedly. kuid:86627:100035 is a good example of this. The version without night mode is 379.61kb for four houses which means it doesn't meet your quality criteria of 100 kb per house. I rather like them myself as did the person who suggested them.

Do feel free to delete any of my content you may have picked from anywhere.

Cheerio John

 

[chrisaw]

As far as I know all the built in assets from previous versions that were left out of TS12 have been uploaded to the DLS and debugged long ago. Do you have a KUID number for one example of something made for a previous Trainz version, using content that was built into that version but is not available in later versions or from the DLS?

steam 3 is a smoke texture used by the LN loco (and some others) for TC3 which is requested by users of later versions, so if it's on the dls why can't they find it?

Chris.

 

[sniper297]

Cuz the DLS has been busticated for several days, which is normal since the DLS server apparently has more loose screws than a hardware store hit by a tornado. Got your PM, downloading LN class BR(S) apple green,<kuid2:218467:50131:2> in TS2010 content manager, but not having a current FCT it's taking a while. Looking at the dependencies I get two unknown KUIDs;

Unknown Location: <kuid:311512:6002>
Unknown Location: <kuid:368699:50422>

 

[clam1952]

Only builtins from 2010 were uploaded not builtins specific to other versions such as TC3.

 

[sniper297]

Do you know for a fact that there are some builtins in TC3 that are not in 2010 and not on the DLS? I've never seen TC3 so I would have no way to check that.

Back to this loco, apparently it found SR Maunsell Lord Nelson Enginespec,<kuid2:368699:50422:2> but still doesn't know what the other is;

Unknown Location: <kuid:311512:6002>

Gresley A1/A3/A4 cab BR green,<kuid2:44090:55024:1> has a sub dependency;

Unknown Location: <kuid:44090:55023>

Author #44090 is Paul Hobbs, looking at the list of his assets I find;

Gresley A1/A3/A4 cab LNER green,<kuid2:44090:55023:1>

Again the usual failure of content mangler to find KUID2s when they're available.

Author #311512 is one of the ones Auran used, but that list jumps from FL9 bogey back,<kuid:311512:1099> to Stn MN North White Plains,<kuid:311512:100001> with no 6002 shown anywhere - this would seem to confirm what clam1952 said, built in content from some previous version that's not built in to 2010 and is not on the DLS. Might possibly be the same kind of weirdness they did with the default portal, in 2010 and previous that's Portal,<kuid:-3:10192> but in TS12 it's replaced with Portal,<kuid:-3:12000> automatically even though it's not a KUID2 with the same base number. Need to find out what that 6002 is and see what the equivalent might be. Also send a bug report if that was something they intended to upload and forgot to.