Why can't America have high-speed trains?

magine being able to travel from New York to Los Angeles without having to step on a plane, yet be able to do so in a fraction of the time it would take to drive. On the surface, that tantalizing prospect took a step closer with the news last month that a Japanese maglev train had reached a top speed of close to 400 mph, breaking its own world record in the process.And the sight of futuristic looking trains whizzing past platforms at hundreds of miles per hour isn't confined to Japan: China, France and Spain, to name a few, have their own high-speed rail networks. Indeed, while these bullet trains may look futuristic, they have been around for decades; they're a tried and tested technology that the Japanese debuted over 50 years ago.
So surely it's only a matter of time before large numbers of U.S. passengers are doing a daily commute to New York from Washington and Boston in about the time it would take them to drive to work in their own cities, right?
Not anytime soon.
While several countries have undertaken the tough work of raising the money to invest in bullet trains, it's unlikely the United States will ever see the vast network of high-speed trains that blanket other countries. Indeed, passenger rail service in the United States lags behind much of the rest of the developed world, for several reasons.
For a start, much of the United States is not exactly an ideal market for high-speed rail. Compared to places where rail really flourishes -- Japan and Western Europe, for instance -- the United States is geographically vast. As a result, in much of the country, cities are far enough apart that air travel provides significant time savings, even compared to some of the fastest trains.
The layout of cities matters, too. When you arrive in Tokyo, Paris or Barcelona, it's often convenient (and even pleasant) to walk to your final destination. When it's not, a fast and frequent mass transportation system awaits to whisk you away. This is not the case in many American cities, where arriving by train typically means jumping into a cab or renting a car for the last leg of your journey. Simply put, in many sprawling U.S. cities, getting to your destination by train can still mean you've got quite a way yet to get home. We could change that. And we probably should. But we're not there yet.
Still, there are several parts of the United States where high-speed rail makes a great deal of sense.
The Northeast Corridor (Boston-New York-Washington) comes in at the top of just about every list of potential candidates for high-speed rail, with the distances involved being considered within the "Goldilocks" zone for fast trains. For example, at just over 200 miles from New York to both Boston and Washington, fast trains could compete with even faster airplanes by offering centrally located stations and providing an alternative to the hassle of airport security lines. These cities are dense, have strong downtowns, and extensive mass transit systems once you arrive.
Just as importantly, rail on the Northeast Corridor can also compete with driving, mainly because traffic congestion makes driving in the region so slow and unreliable, while tolls and parking costs can make it an expensive and time-consuming option. Rail in the northeast even has a great track record; after Amtrak's almost-high-speed Acela service began on the Northeast Corridor in 2000, ridership exploded, quickly outstripping air travel between New York and Washington.
However, the biggest barrier to improved rail service in the United States is simply the lack of political will. At the federal level, support for passenger rail service has languished and Washington has devolved decision-making (and increasingly, funding) to the states. With the nation's transportation trust fund nearly broke and no permanent solution in sight, it seems unlikely the federal government will champion high-speed rail -- a costly endeavor -- in the near future.
Without leadership from the federal government, the states are largely in control. Yet many of the most promising corridors for high-speed rail cross state lines, making it difficult to plan for better rail service. In 2009, the Obama administration awarded nearly a billion dollars of stimulus money to plan and upgrade a high-speed rail line connecting Chicago to Milwaukee and Madison. A year later, Scott Walker, the newly elected governor of Wisconsin, rejected his state's portion of the money and the project was, for the time being, at least, derailed. (The money quickly found its way to a grateful California for its high-speed rail line.)
Still, all is not lost for those hoping to see high-speed rail in the United States.
California is committed to building its high-speed rail link between San Francisco and Los Angeles, paying for the line largely with state money raised by a new cap-and-trade market on carbon emissions. Several privately funded projects are also in the planning stages. For instance, a Dallas-to-Houston line promises 205 mph service in 2021 without a single dollar from the taxpayer. Meanwhile, another private company has already begun construction on a Miami-to-Orlando line with a more modest speed of 125 mph, with service expected to begin in 2017.
All this points to how high-speed rail will likely progress in the United States: piecemeal. It is doubtful that we will have a nationwide system of fast trains soon. And this is not necessarily a bad thing; through a combination of private and public action, we should target markets where high-speed rail makes sense. That means looking for shorter corridors connecting dense places with existing mass transit infrastructure.
High-speed rail won't be cheap, so we'll have to choose wisely. Some of the most promising corridors are also the most expensive; Amtrak estimates upgrading the Northeast Corridor to true high-speed rail would cost upward of $150 billion. Such an undertaking requires careful consideration of the economic, environmental and other costs and benefits of individual projects. But more importantly, it requires the kind of long-term planning that seems to have become vanishingly rare.
Thankfully, high-speed rail doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing approach. And while given the choice I would rather be riding Japan's speeding bullet trains, even the incremental improvements we've seen in services like Amtrak's Acela can make rail travel a lot more appealing for the hundreds of thousands of passengers who rely on it every year.
 
Ask the airline lobby.
Ask tree huggers
Ask crooked politicians.
Ask auto mfg.
Start up to high must be government built and you know they never go over bugget.
 
Also ask the labor unions and the government employees who will get top-shelf benefits and pensions for the rest of their lives paid by the taxpayer. There's a reason why this stuff is so expensive.

I can drive to DC in roughly the same amount of time as the train. Actually, it's probably faster accounting for parking, buying a ticket, waiting for the train, etc. I only live about 4 miles from the nearest NEC station. To take the train tomorrow, I'd have to park in the middle of the ghetto for the privilege of paying $73 each way for a redeye or almost twice that for a daytime, non-Acela train that's half-full, probably with people blabbing on their phones or with kids running up and down the aisle. With HSR, halve the time and triple the fare for a trip most people make once every few years, if that. No thanks. As much as I hate driving, driving makes far more sense.

If you think being able to live in Delaware and work in NYC is a good idea, here's a better one: Move to the NYC area. If you want to live in Boston but work in DC, move to the DC area. All are served by some kind of commuter rail if you'd prefer not to drive. But don't demand that we put the country and the taxpayer further into debt so you can shave a few hours off of your occasional train ride.

If anything, commuter rail is where the expansion needs to be, and it's a lot cheaper than HSR.
 
The US likes cars and planes too much, plus the infrastructure is already in place for those. If it costs a lot to construct, then we won't be too keen on building it. With the Acela leading as an example as what high speed trains could be like, and with California having broken ground on the first segment of the state's high speed rail system, we may yet see some proper modern high speed trains whizzing about in the somewhat near future. Somewhat near. If the CHSR turns out to be successful, it could serve as a model for other high speed systems around the country and encourage the public to vote for such projects to be approved.

The number one reason for high speed rail projects to die before they even start is because of funding concerns. The CHSR project was approved by voters in 2008, cleared countless hurtles, and even received federal funding to help it along. Even after all that, some group will find some way to try and stop or delay it.
 
Stop electing trash. When you're country is run by garbage this is what to expect. Garbage in, garbage out.

Mike
 
If you think being able to live in Delaware and work in NYC is a good idea, here's a better one: Move to the NYC area. If you want to live in Boston but work in DC, move to the DC area. All are served by some kind of commuter rail if you'd prefer not to drive. But don't demand that we put the country and the taxpayer further into debt so you can shave a few hours off of your occasional train ride.

If anything, commuter rail is where the expansion needs to be, and it's a lot cheaper than HSR.

Probably the most sensible thing regarding US HSR I've ever read.
 
[QUOTEIf you think being able to live in Delaware and work in NYC is a good idea, here's a better one: Move to the NYC area. If you want to live in Boston but work in DC, move to the DC area. All are served by some kind of commuter rail if you'd prefer not to drive. But don't demand that we put the country and the taxpayer further into debt so you can shave a few hours off of your occasional train ride.

If anything, commuter rail is where the expansion needs to be, and it's a lot cheaper than HSR.][/QUOTE]



Why is it we always put the price tag for high speed rail as if it's from the ground up. If we are talking about the speeds that were papoose for the 80 180MPH. And never realized, do to not rebuilding or repairing of critical infrastructure. And still have to spend about 2/3 of the 150 billion just make existing rail lines safe and live up to designed travel speeds (Example) the NEC has some 200 plus bridges that are deficient in design an structure . To make any one of these ( SEPTA, MARC, NJ TRANSIT ) commuter lines more efficient these would need to be addressed regardless.



[Also ask the labor unions and the government employees who will get top-shelf benefits and pensions for the rest of their lives paid by the taxpayer. There's a reason why this stuff is so expensive.
/QUOTE]

Labor always seems to get a bad rap here, a construction project has cost of planing, design , and construction. Of which labor is usually the lowest part of. The Design usually dictates the technical of type of construction, which in my experience drives up cost do to unseen unproven methods. That labor has no control over. Nor is there any financial tie's to benefit construction labor afterwards .

Higher speed lines that have been papooses in the Midwest and West cost run into the added cost of in incorporating the new rail into an older systems that require the same as commitment of funds to bring design function up to date. An expenditure that would and is still needed.

But If you build it, you got to maintain it. As I see it we don't do a great job of ether. But were great at dishing out blame as to why it hasn't happen.
 
HSR just like any big industry is a long gone thing in America. We live in a country that has disinvested in its infrastructure in the name of big profits for a few individuals. This means that anything that requires capital expenditures, whether public or private, will never get done. It isn't just the railroads that have suffered from this, but other industries as well. This is why we no longer have a steel industry, or textiles, or shoe industry. As time went on the equipment became more and more expensive to run. Labor costs were blamed, but in reality it's the old efficient equipment that's the cause. Keep in mind newer technology means better ways, most of the time, of doing things that cost less to operate and require fewer people. If a new company starts up making steel widgets over in another country, our steel mills can't keep up due to the new factory being able to produce the parts faster, not taking the underpaid workers workers into consideration as well, but for all intent in purposes the new company is already light years ahead with a modern efficient factory, while our mills are a 100 years old or more.

The problem too is instead of putting more money back into the factory here to make it better, the big stockholders, meaning the useless ones that do nothing but rake the company profits into their own pockets call the shots. They are not interested in actually spending any money and will sell off the company and trash it rather than invest. Instead we now have the jobs moved off to another place and the towns devastated. The same thing happened here with the shoe and textile industry. In the 1950s, post WWII era, the big textile mills in New England could not compete with those now starting up in Brazil and South Korea. Instead of reinvesting in the companies here, they initially moved south, blaming the cost on the labor rather than their poor old equipment, whose lifespan was well beyond what we'd expect any equipment to operate for. The shoe industry is another one that perished by the 1970s, and once employed over 50,000 people in the city I live in.

The railroads are no different. We have a rail system that's now going on 200 years old, and it's pretty much the same system we had back then. The mainlines follow the same route they did in the beginning, and like many areas along the East Coast, have tight curves as they negotiate the shorelines and traveled into dense populated areas. The expense to build this the "right way" is more than anyone would want to spend, thus, we're stuck with trains, including the so-called fast ones, trundling along at the same speeds that the PRR and NYC set back in the 1930s. What's interesting is the Boston and Lowell railroad is one of the earliest railroads in the US, dating back to 1835. The 26 mile (42 km) trip from Boston still takes 53 minutes while making all stops, and is the same speed that the commuter trains took in 1853 when Charles Dickens visited the US!

The other thing is we have basic corridors which are better served by commuter trains rather than HSR. The middle of our country is empty, and I mean empty. Has anyone traveled across Nebraska, or Montana, or even parts of Kansas and Oklahoma. Seriously folks, there is absolutely nothing for hundreds of miles except for a lonely Walmart. The rest is open land with cows and cattle. Do you think these states would want to invest in something that will be of no benefit to the residents? These areas don't even have good cellular phone coverage because the population is so sparse. So now we have three north-south corridors, west, middle, and east, and the east is a short one at that which only serves the most populated areas on that coast from southern Maine to Washington DC. The central, Chicago to Gulf is viable with its bigger cities located long the Mississippi River to NO and another which branches to the DFW area. Then there's the West Coast region with a majority of the traffic in CA north-south, and to Las Vegas. Since these are basically very small chunks, there's a sparse chance that the full country would support the public funding, and given the current history of investing in anything infrastructure, the chances are even more slim other than small bits here and there in the more populated areas.

John
 
HSR just like any big industry is a long gone thing in America. We live in a country that has disinvested in its infrastructure in the name of big profits for a few individuals. This means that anything that requires capital expenditures, whether public or private, will never get done. It isn't just the railroads that have suffered from this, but other industries as well. This is why we no longer have a steel industry, or textiles, or shoe industry. As time went on the equipment became more and more expensive to run. Labor costs were blamed, but in reality it's the old efficient equipment that's the cause. Keep in mind newer technology means better ways, most of the time, of doing things that cost less to operate and require fewer people. If a new company starts up making steel widgets over in another country, our steel mills can't keep up due to the new factory being able to produce the parts faster, not taking the underpaid workers workers into consideration as well, but for all intent in purposes the new company is already light years ahead with a modern efficient factory, while our mills are a 100 years old or more.

I couldn't of said it better, one point is the little thing of cost benefit of said HSR projects is usually not held to one specific industry.
 
Even if you could run at an average speed of 100 MPH, it's still going to take over a day to get from East Coast to West Coast. That means you still need trains that are the equivalent of rolling hotels, with bedrooms, restaurant cars and associated staffing levels, but still cannot compete with your appetite for domestic air travel for overall speed.

"HSR" works in the UK and Europe because distances are relatively short, the trains (at least these days) pack people in 80 to a carriage and quite often minimal catering - very few services these days convey a traditional railway restaurant service. Something from the microwave (overpriced and overheated) taken back to your seat is as good as it gets. Internal UK flights exist but are still largely the preserve of up market business travellers or plane cranks and our road system doesn't compare to that in the US.
 
Even if you could run at an average speed of 100 MPH, it's still going to take over a day to get from East Coast to West Coast. That means you still need trains that are the equivalent of rolling hotels, with bedrooms, restaurant cars and associated staffing levels, but still cannot compete with your appetite for domestic air travel for overall speed.

"HSR" works in the UK and Europe because distances are relatively short, the trains (at least these days) pack people in 80 to a carriage and quite often minimal catering - very few services these days convey a traditional railway restaurant service. Something from the microwave (overpriced and overheated) taken back to your seat is as good as it gets. Internal UK flights exist but are still largely the preserve of up market business travellers or plane cranks and our road system doesn't compare to that in the US.


Absolutely true, Vern. The UK is the equivalent of a segment of our country and fits in all of New England plus a tiny bit of New York State. All of this is reachable within several hours at the most no matter which direction we travel if the traffic is good. The HSR is perfect for highly populated corridors because it can move people quickly. However, over here the most populous areas are located directly on the coastline between New York and southern Maine. The rest is woodlands and old farmsteads.

Our domestic airlines is far from luxurious, and the regional airlines now charge for a lousy bag of peanuts, but will give out free soda and juice!

John
 
Just an observation, but a HSR to the East to West coast with an average speed of only 100 mph. Would be kinda like beating a dead horse. that speed would be going backward as fright of the 40 t0 50 were doing that, let alone passenger service of that era.

Times to New York to Chicago have increased, along with times from Boston to Washington to Miami. Overall track speed has declined because of needed investment. Don't know about the west cost.

But the HSR that's mostly talked about is of smaller distances as the UK, such as Boston to New York, New York to Washington. Or Miami to Fort Lauderdale.
( Many other have been given ) Semi short runs to be connected to a larger system later. A truly cross country HSR is really only a pipe dream at this time, and would be costly given the distances needed to be crossed.
 
Maybe interurbans should be rebuilt/reinvented. They are the perfect combination of HSR and commuter. In the city, they can be slower trolleys, and then accelerate faster outside city limits.
 
Seems to me the larger the country the less likely coast to coast HSR is to ever be built. It just isn't practical. Why take a 200 MPH train when you can take a 600 MPH airplane. As has been said above relatively short HSR's are possible but only in a limited number of places where the ridership can (eventually) offset the cost of construction and maintenance.

Remember:
Those for it always vastly over estimate the potential ridership and profit and under estimate the cost of construction and maintenance. Those against it always do the opposite. Reality never seems to rear its head no matter who is talking (and most importantly - someone who quietly remains in the background will make a ton of money).

Ben
 
Just an observation, but a HSR to the East to West coast with an average speed of only 100 mph. Would be kinda like beating a dead horse. that speed would be going backward as fright of the 40 t0 50 were doing that, let alone passenger service of that era.

Times to New York to Chicago have increased, along with times from Boston to Washington to Miami. Overall track speed has declined because of needed investment. Don't know about the west cost.

But the HSR that's mostly talked about is of smaller distances as the UK, such as Boston to New York, New York to Washington. Or Miami to Fort Lauderdale.
( Many other have been given ) Semi short runs to be connected to a larger system later. A truly cross country HSR is really only a pipe dream at this time, and would be costly given the distances needed to be crossed.

These short run regional systems are the way to go with HSR and these would compete well with the airlines as they do now with the Boston/Portland to Washington service. The speeds sure have slowed down. The old New Haven used to do the Boston to New York City run back in the 1940s to the 1960s in about 3-1/2 hours and this included the engine swap at New Haven from steam and diesel to electric traction for the run into New York Penn Station. The Penn Central was able to maintain this running speed, however, as the track maintenance fell off the speed dropped. By the time Amtrak came along the run took over 5 hours, or a bit longer than it does to drive from Boston to New York. It wasn't until the electrification of the segment from New Haven to Boston did they finally achieve the same speeds the New Haven once did.

But as far as a cross-country system, I doubt it too.

John
 
Yup - coast to coast HSR is basically "pie in the sky by and by". Sounds great but in reality isn't workable.

Ben
 
Why is it we always put the price tag for high speed rail as if it's from the ground up.

You're right to the extent that it's not from the ground-up. That $151bn is for an HSR that reuses most of the existing right-of-way and avoids building on top-dollar real estate like that in Center City Philadelphia or Manhattan. It would be orders of magnitudes higher if we were building a line from scratch, due to land acquisition costs alone.

But, if major public-works products like the Big Dig are anything to go by, that $151bn - which represents a very low-end estimate - will easily end up closer to half a trillion dollars.

If we are talking about the speeds that were papoose for the 80 180MPH. And never realized, do to not rebuilding or repairing of critical infrastructure. And still have to spend about 2/3 of the 150 billion just make existing rail lines safe and live up to designed travel speeds (Example) the NEC has some 200 plus bridges that are deficient in design an structure . To make any one of these ( SEPTA, MARC, NJ TRANSIT ) commuter lines more efficient these would need to be addressed regardless.

$151bn is Amtrak's number, so it's probably orders of magnitude below what it would cost, and, in all likelihood, Amtrak knows it. Even if we are to take these estimates at face value and not account for the fact that they will go far above budget, $50bn for a faster train is a lot of money, especially for one nobody rides as it is.

Labor always seems to get a bad rap here, a construction project has cost of planing, design , and construction. Of which labor is usually the lowest part of. The Design usually dictates the technical of type of construction, which in my experience drives up cost do to unseen unproven methods. That labor has no control over. Nor is there any financial tie's to benefit construction labor afterwards .

While it's all overpriced, the construction costs are exorbitant. Amtrak's projection, below, predicts 40,000 line construction jobs over 25 years. At $50,000 average wage, that's $50bn right there. The Amtrak report is not clear if those 40,000 are needed for the original construction project or for ongoing capital improvements (which are a whole separate set of expenses that could dwarf the original build cost.) Add to that the overhead of employment (the actual cost of having an employee is a good deal more than their salary, typically 25%-40% beyond their salary itself, and far more since we're talking about public employees who will be getting pensions and upper-end health plans.) Even obeying the cost-of-employee rule for private-sector employees, you've already got half the build cost in construction jobs. Add in the pensions and healthcare, and you're quite easily at $100bn.

http://articles.philly.com/2012-07-...eph-boardman-acela-express-northeast-corridor

But If you build it, you got to maintain it. As I see it we don't do a great job of ether. But were great at dishing out blame as to why it hasn't happen.

And that's yet another ongoing expense that won't go away.
 
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Absolutely true, Vern. The UK is the equivalent of a segment of our country and fits in all of New England plus a tiny bit of New York State. All of this is reachable within several hours at the most no matter which direction we travel if the traffic is good. The HSR is perfect for highly populated corridors because it can move people quickly. However, over here the most populous areas are located directly on the coastline between New York and southern Maine. The rest is woodlands and old farmsteads.

Our domestic airlines is far from luxurious, and the regional airlines now charge for a lousy bag of peanuts, but will give out free soda and juice!

John

What you say is correct John - Out here in Australia we have a similar situation,... a huge country and BIG, BIG distances between our State capital cities. It would be nice to hope that someone will just build the infrastructure, so that people can take a HSR trip instead of catching an aircraft. A lot of things have to happen before that will all come about. The Country needs to create a 'Tourism' industry so large (create the demand) that it is vitally imperative to have a transport system which can carry millions of people each year, to all of their major 'tourist' cities.

A good example: My wife and I toured China two years ago and I found this country intend to have the largest "Tourism Industry" in the world by 2020. In 2010 China had 56 million 'tourists' travel their country. We travelled from Beijing to Shanghai on their HSR - the train was full and the fares were cheap. It reached speeds of 340 kph and took 4 and one half hours. That's slower than an aircraft, but we didn't have to take a long cab drive to the airport at each end. The HSR stations are much closer to the heart of the city. We also used the Maglev from Shanghai airport into Shanghai itself (approx. 32km) which travelled at 431kph and we did it in 5 minutes. China are catering for tourists - getting them to all parts of the Country at a fast pace - the more time you save, the more attractions you will see.

Think about the population of Shanghai 24 million people,; Beijing 22.5 million people; Tourists 60 million people,.... basic trains, buses and aircraft can't handle those numbers. (The population of the whole of Australia would fit into Shanghai alone.) So something better and faster had to be introduced. China looks at it this way,... "You've got to spend money to make even more money". We even saw whole new satellite cities being constructed (no one living in them now) but when they are finished, they can move 20 million people in and create a whole new working environment that can pay back the money it took to build it.

Anyway, the United States and Australia really need to focus on ways to boost their Tourism Industry if they want to compete, but keeping in mind how to transport those individuals from one city to another, at the cheapest possible price. As 'Railwoodman' said "It's really only a pipedream at this time".

Ah well, back to my Trainz game - at least I can create what I like and it doesn't cost an arm or a leg.
Cheers,
Roy3b3 :p
 
Even if you could run at an average speed of 100 MPH, it's still going to take over a day to get from East Coast to West Coast. That means you still need trains that are the equivalent of rolling hotels, with bedrooms, restaurant cars and associated staffing levels, but still cannot compete with your appetite for domestic air travel for overall speed.

"HSR" works in the UK and Europe because distances are relatively short, the trains (at least these days) pack people in 80 to a carriage and quite often minimal catering - very few services these days convey a traditional railway restaurant service. Something from the microwave (overpriced and overheated) taken back to your seat is as good as it gets. Internal UK flights exist but are still largely the preserve of up market business travellers or plane cranks and our road system doesn't compare to that in the US.


However, a French TGV traveling at 320 MPH could go from Los Angeles to New York in 7 hours*
Or the Japanese Maglev, traveling at 375 MPH could go that distance in 5.9 hours*

*without stops, and considering that it travels at a consistent speed
 
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