Trainz and DRM

[RRSignal]

And this was all I said... nothing more.

Please try to be a little clearer in the future.

At this point you are just putting words in my... posts... I have never indicated otherwise. The misinformation is is the speculating and saying this or that will happen with no basis (see below). Again you jump to a conclusion because I do not share the same urgency over it, and here you stoop to insults... Hey if that's what it takes to make you think you won an argument, be my guest.

I get the impression that you don't even know what you're arguing. I'm not sure. Maybe we're just miscommunicating, I don't know the deal. But, I'm trying to step back and refocus the point of this thread, as I have had to do several times. Public forums have a tendency to get derailed rather easily, and this thread has demonstrated that tendency amply.

This is the misinformation I am talking about. Surely you can't be as dim as to misunderstand the meaning of this post. If you need an explanation:

I fully understand the meaning of the post - that N3V does not consider users of some (if not all) legacy versions to be customers, and, therefore, has little reason to fear remotely disabling their installations of Trainz, assuming a phone-home DRM system was in place. Put another way, let's just say, for the sake of argument, that a phone-home DRM/product activation scheme was in place when TRS2004. Given N3V current attitudes toward these "non-customers", they might shut off activations of this product. Given the aforementioned attitude expressed by Windwalkr (and backed by yourself in your post above), there is little reason to fear any kind of customer backlash (or 'corporate suicide', as another poster put it) since N3V has written off those users anyway. While I realize that N3V can't go back in time and add DRM to TRS2004, then certainly can add it to the next version of Trainz or even the next patch of TS12.

I realize this post is pretty complicated for your level of understanding, and I can try to break it down to be simpler, if needed. Feel free to PM me if needed.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

I fully understand the meaning of the post - that N3V does not consider users of some (if not all) legacy versions to be customers, and, therefore, has little reason to fear remotely disabling their installations of Trainz, assuming a phone-home DRM system was in place. Put another way, let's just say, for the sake of argument, that a phone-home DRM/product activation scheme was in place when TRS2004. Given N3V current attitudes toward these "non-customers", they might shut off activations of this product. Given the aforementioned attitude expressed by Windwalkr (and backed by yourself in your post above), there is little reason to fear any kind of customer backlash (or 'corporate suicide', as another poster put it) since N3V has written off those users anyway. While I realize that N3V can't go back in time and add DRM to TRS2004, then certainly can add it to the next version of Trainz or even the next patch of TS12.

Yes - very true - but that is quite a contrived scenario. As I had indicated above, I wouldn't want them to have that kind of control over the software. On the other hand, my TRS2004 discs are in a box in the garage and have not been touched in many many years. If they did shut off some kind of activation at this point, I would be unaware.

I realize this post is pretty complicated for your level of understanding, and I can try to break it down to be simpler, if needed. Feel free to PM me if needed.

Again with the insults? Run out of Intelligent things to add?

 

[RRSignal]

Yes - very true - but that is quite a contrived scenario. As I had indicated above, I wouldn't want them to have that kind of control over the software. On the other hand, my TRS2004 discs are in a box in the garage and have not been touched in many many years. If they did shut off some kind of activation at this point, I would be unaware.

It's far from contrived; essentially the same thing is pretty common, and a few users have posted examples of personal experiences with other software. Just replace TRS2004 with Corel whatever KingConrail mentioned, or another game mentioned by another poster. I also listed a number of major manufacturers/distributors who've done the same thing. I used TRS2004 as an example as many of us here are familiar with it, but there are many actual cases of this kind of thing happening, and they are quite common indeed.

Again with the insults? Run out of Intelligent things to add?

I'm sorry that you feel insulted, but I've simplified things down as much as I can and I'm a fairly capable writer. Sorry. I really don't know how to be any simpler or more direct, and I'm kind of tired of having to repeat the same concept trying to explain things to you. Keep in mind some of your prior posts were pretty insulting as well. I'm not sure if you're just trying to be obstinate, play devil's advocate, or you aren't getting things. As somebody who often plays the role of devil's advocate, I (and most other people, AFAIK) generally state that fact upfront. Since you haven't, I'm assuming there is another reason for the issue but, if you are, just state that. There's nothing wrong with taking that stance. So-called devil's advocates (I hate that term, BTW, but it's very common) are useful for advancing discussions and, frankly, this thread would be about 4 pages long, not 14, if it weren't for needless and pointless arguing, usually over minutae.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

I used TRS2004 as an example as many of us here are familiar with it, but there are many actual cases of this kind of thing happening, and they are quite common indeed.

I realize you used TRS04 for that but I was attempting to explain a reason it shouldn't matter. Also, you may want to take into consideration cases where the opposite happened - xyz company takes away the remote activation of old software but gives an alternative means of use.

I'm sorry that you feel insulted, but I've simplified things down as much as I can and I'm a fairly capable writer. Sorry. Keep in mind some of your prior posts were pretty insulting as well. I'm not sure if you're just trying to be obstinate, play devil's advocate, or you aren't getting things. As somebody who often plays the role of devil's advocate, I (and most other people, AFAIK) generally state that fact upfront. Since you haven't, I'm assuming there is another reason for the issue but, if you are, just state that. There's nothing wrong with taking that stance. So-called devil's advocates (I hate that term, BTW, but it's very common) are useful for advancing discussions and, frankly, this thread would be about 4 pages long, not 14, if it weren't for needless and pointless arguing, usually over minutae.

I don't feel insulted, but I can see where you would think making it seem like I am incapable of your level of understanding should insult me. This is your third attempt at it.

I think the discussion has advanced without anyone taking a devil's advocate stance. I don't need to take that stance, I am simply stating what my views are. If you refuse to understand them or acknowledge them that is your choice. Obstinate would probably best describe my posts here, as I see no reason to reconsider my opinion even after everything prior.

 

[chuffbuff]

While I agree with some, others went off on a completely obscure tangent promoting much exaggeration regarding this topic. For those that are unsure what DRM (Destructive Repetitious Media) or call it what you will merely consists of.

PC GAMING WIKI - COMMON TYPES OF DRM

Should we all still continue to ignore reading the fine print of the EULA (End User Licence Agreements) TOS (Terms Of Service) statements before we clicked on the "I AGREE" button ? :hehe:

 

[amigacooke]

Should we all still continue to ignore reading the fine print of the EULA (End User Licence Agreements) TOS (Terms Of Service) statements before we clicked on the "I AGREE" button ? :hehe:

Probably a bit late at that point. I certainly agree with the central thrust of this thread that N3V should make the position regarding DRM clear before or at the point of asking for money to finance the project.

 

[jadebullet]

Hey guys, I did a test. I unplugged my internet, and ran trainz. It still worked. I then tried to run the Blue Comet DLC and that still worked. I don't really see why you guys are talking about a doomsday scenario where auran shuts down and suddenly you can't play your game or use your DLC. The only issue that would arise is that you wouldn't be able to redownload your DLC.

Sure, there may be some DRM involved, but as someone who had purchased Spore, and also just barely dodged the bullet on Sim City, I have to say that it really isn't that bad of one. My CD burner hasn't been disabled. There is no always online requirement or anything like that. I am going to have to agree with NS37 on this one.

On another note, is there any place to download your stuff now rrsignal? I understand your reasoning, but I don't appreciate my computer's harddrive being taken up by little white squares because you decided to wipe your DLS assets by replacing them with white squares, especially because I was using, and required some of those assets. Are you hosting them somewhere else so that I can fix that issue?

 

[norfolksouthern37]

On another note, is there any place to download your stuff now rrsignal? I understand your reasoning, but I don't appreciate my computer's harddrive being taken up by little white squares because you decided to wipe your DLS assets by replacing them with white squares, especially because I was using, and required some of those assets. Are you hosting them somewhere else so that I can fix that issue?

Dare I say exercising his own form of invasive DRM? I was unaware of this, but very interesting...

 

[amigacooke]

Dare I say exercising his own form of invasive DRM? I was unaware of this, but very interesting...

What deleting content that users have already downloaded to their computers? Surely not.

 

[nicky9499]

You could delete the most recent versions to revert to the previously obsolete versions.

 

[jadebullet]

What deleting content that users have already downloaded to their computers? Surely not.

Nah, he obsoleted his old content and replaced it with a mesh that is just a small white block to prove that he could still retain rights to his content on the DLS.

 

[amigacooke]

Nah, he obsoleted his old content and replaced it with a mesh that is just a small white block to prove that he could still retain rights to his content on the DLS.

But isn't the effect of this that Trainz will ask users to download the latest version which will effectively remove the content, as happened in your case?

 

[RRSignal]

Hey guys, I did a test. I unplugged my internet, and ran trainz. It still worked. I then tried to run the Blue Comet DLC and that still worked. I don't really see why you guys are talking about a doomsday scenario where auran shuts down and suddenly you can't play your game or use your DLC. The only issue that would arise is that you wouldn't be able to redownload your DLC.

Sure, there may be some DRM involved, but as someone who had purchased Spore, and also just barely dodged the bullet on Sim City, I have to say that it really isn't that bad of one. My CD burner hasn't been disabled. There is no always online requirement or anything like that. I am going to have to agree with NS37 on this one.

On another note, is there any place to download your stuff now rrsignal? I understand your reasoning, but I don't appreciate my computer's harddrive being taken up by little white squares because you decided to wipe your DLS assets by replacing them with white squares, especially because I was using, and required some of those assets. Are you hosting them somewhere else so that I can fix that issue?

As for the the Blue Comet, yes, it will work - for about a month. Then it won't. Windwalkr confirmed this:

TBQH, if we all dropped dead today and nobody took over the IP, then yes, the payware assets would stop working after a month or so.

When performing test, please actually do a test. Thanks.



Now, NS37 is right, for once. Yes, I did practice a form of DRM. Tough. I put the content on the DLS and I took it away, just like companies that practice DRM do. So imagine that happening to your DLC or the game itself, even without going out of business. If you have a problem with it, go pound sand. You didn't pay me for that content, so I don't consider you a customer, like N3V doesn't consider legacy users to be customers - the only difference is, you paid for a copy of Trainz at one point. You never paid me diddly, so I owe you nothing, legally or morally. I hope this illustrates what DRM can do. Thank you.

 

[amigacooke]

Now, NS37 is right, for once. Yes, I did practice a form of DRM. Tough. I put the content on the DLS and I took it away, just like companies that practice DRM do. So imagine that happening to your DLC or the game itself, even without going out of business. If you have a problem with it, go pound sand. You didn't pay me for that content, so I don't consider you a customer, like N3V doesn't consider legacy users to be customers - the only difference is, you paid for a copy of Trainz at one point. You never paid me diddly, so I owe you nothing, legally or morally. I hope this illustrates what DRM can do. Thank you.

It illustrates that while you believe you have the right to protect your own content by whatever method is available, you don't believe that companies that make their living by their products should have the same right.

I'd still like to know what N3V intend DRM-wise for T2 though.

 

[jadebullet]

Please explain how N3V will take away my ability to play the game I am currently playing and can continue to play without an internet connection, as well as my DLC that is the same way.

As for your DLS assets, I think that N3V should delete your current ones and reupload the previous ones. I mean, it is technically their right to do so seeing as you uploaded them there and thus agreed to their terms of service and contractually signed the rights to said content over to them with that action. It is in their terms of service. I am actually pretty glad for them having said ability as it allows them to include good routes for the latest editions of trainz, rather than relying on self made content that probably wouldn't be that good. It also is what allows other users to bring faulty content up to present day standards in regard to errors. Is this a bad thing? No, because by uploading you acknowledged that you understood and agreed to the terms of service. I tell you what, them reuploading the old version would sure save me a bunch of time since I wouldn't have to keep going through each obsolete asset, removing its guts, and cramming them into the updated asset so that your assets work properly again.

And sure, you don't owe us anything, but guess what, this is a hobby. You weren't selling these assets, and you agreed to the terms of service. Also, like I just said, it is a hobby and there is a social aspect to it. At least for me, if I upload content that I create, I do it because I want people to use it, and get pride out of seeing it used because it means that I helped out the community and people liked what I made. That being said, I upload to a third party website just because I 1) am not good at uploading to the DLS and 2) prefer to bring traffic to USLW.net, but I have uploaded to the DLS in the past. But yeah, by getting upset and taking your toys and going home, any route that has ever used your content on it is now rendered ugly due to stupid blocks.


Edit: I just want to clarify that I hate DRM and do not agree with it because in most cases it doesn't work because it is too invasive, but there are many games that I have that include DRM that work properly because you don't notice it at all unless you are pirating. Really, DRM in trainz is nothing new. The use of the serial numbers is a form of DRM, and I personally have no problem with the auto download system put in place for DLC, it is much simpler than the previous method, and like I said, I can use it without internet so it isn't really invasive.

Edit2: and yes, I do know that my idea of N3V reuploading your content to fixed standards is kinda harsh, but quite frankly, your rude attitude was quite offputting.

 

[RRSignal]

Please explain how N3V will take away my ability to play the game I am currently playing and can continue to play without an internet connection, as well as my DLC that is the same way.

This was already discussed in the original post. I suggest you read it. The fact that the existing DRM method, with TS12 SP1, could permanently disable DLC was verified by N3V's own Windwalkr. I, and some other users in this thread, have provided examples of companies potentially or actually disabling their product, including companies that didn't go out of business, but disabled their product activation servers for other reasons.

As for your DLS assets, I think that N3V should delete your current ones and reupload the previous ones. I mean, it is technically their right to do so seeing as you uploaded them there and thus agreed to their terms of service and contractually signed the rights to said content over to them with that action.

Incorrect, and N3V themselves have stated that I still retain the ownership rights. While I do not wish to get in a peeing contest with them, and I'm sure they feel the same way, worse comes to worst, I'm pretty sure I'd prevail. Moral of the story: Don't poke the bears.

Edit: I just want to clarify that I hate DRM and do not agree with it because in most cases it doesn't work because it is too invasive, but there are many games that I have that include DRM that work properly because you don't notice it at all unless you are pirating. Really, DRM in trainz is nothing new. The use of the serial numbers is a form of DRM, and I personally have no problem with the auto download system put in place for DLC, it is much simpler than the previous method, and like I said, I can use it without internet so it isn't really invasive.

Seems you really have no idea what is being discussed here. Might I suggest you go back and read the original post and, perhaps, at least the first few pages? Serial numbers really do not constitute DRM by most modern definitions and, even if they did, that's not the kind of DRM being discussed here: The kind being discussed are invasive types like internet activation, be it one-time, once-a-month, once-a-week, one-a-day, always-on, whatever. They're all effectively the same apart from frequency.

 

[JCitron]

Please keep the personal attacks out of this thread.


John

 

[norfolksouthern37]

...NS37 is right...

You pretty much destroyed your own argument here... Very nice work. :hehe: Perhaps you should read those EULAs that come with software, and see just how much they really 'owe' you... that's right, nothing. You are wrong, and you have lost. All you have left now is your rude comments and insults.

It illustrates that while you believe you have the right to protect your own content by whatever method is available, you don't believe that companies that make their living by their products should have the same right.

I'd still like to know what N3V intend DRM-wise for T2 though.

But yes I am interested in the DRM for the next sim, just out of curiosity. I am pretty confident that it will not result in doomsday for anyone or for Trainz. :wave:

 

[amigacooke]

Incorrect, and N3V themselves have stated that I still retain the ownership rights. While I do not wish to get in a peeing contest with them, and I'm sure they feel the same way, worse comes to worst, I'm pretty sure I'd prevail. Moral of the story: Don't poke the bears.

I think the original assets are still on the DLS. You could probably download them with the black pages.

 

[JCitron]

Look guys,

Please keep this civil or this thread, sadly, will be locked and moved.

Rather than saying something that will cause hurt feelings, we should wait for the official word from N3V. Didn't Tony say something on this line a few pages back?

Seriously guys, you have rehashed the rehash on the same subject.

John