I Need help with signaling, please.

[thegrindre]

Will someone please direct me to a 'signaling tutorial for dummies', please. I can't get this seemingly easy thing to work.

Situation is, you see a mainline in black and two passing siding tracks in blue. Both AI drivers will stop at the entrance of either siding while staying on the mainline just staring at each other. Overall distance is 5-8 miles max.
Why won't one train pull into a siding to let the other train go by??? I've placed a signal at all lettered locations.

I can't figure it out...

 

[Natvander]

Unfortunately the AI doesn't quite understand 'normal' signalling. You can either use a combination of triggers and rules to ensure the trains pass each other, or do the un-prototypical thing by removing one of the starting signals at each end of the loops.

 

[thegrindre]

I don't understand what you're calling a loop? I have all signals lettered, would you mind telling me which signal(s) to remove?
If Aruan didn't/couldn't make it prototypical, then how are we supposed to make these things work???:n: (KRS is looking sweeter and sweeter as time goes by.:Y

Thank you,

 

[Natvander]

The blue track is the loop.

Try removing B, D, H and J for AI operations.

Alternatively, as I stated, you can use triggers and rules to control the signals and junctions.

The big difference between Trainz and most other simulators, concerning AI, is most run under scenario conditions and the creator designates the state of signals and junctions. With Trainz' open ended gameplay, it is hard to have the AI respond prototypically, especially as what is prototypical in one region may not be in another. That is where rules fill the gap.

 

[Dermmy]

Hmmmmm... I'd be removing all the sigs protecting the facing junctions - A, F, G and L. It ain't prototypical, but it prevents the sort of 'Mexican standoff' situation Rick describes.

There was a long thread at the old forums titled "Crossing Loops Trainz Style" or something very like that which IIRC after much discussion arrived at the conclusion above - only signal the departure ends of crossing loops.

If direction markers are used to enforce left (or right) hand running, then the unused 'departure' signal can also be removed...

Andy

 

[misterchugg]

hi mate
kill a f g and l

i found to my amazement that works for me in TC
it works like a block signal

cheers
ron

 

[john259]

Some possible sources of useful information about signalling:

Chuck Brite's Surveyor tutorials on his Midwest Central web site

Greg Furlong's Surveyor tutorial videos on Razorback TV

And if you've got TRS2004:
C:\Program Files\Auran\TRS2004\Docs\manuals_cd\manuals\Signaling_Guide.pdf

John

 

[fran1]

have just done a simple simulation of your problem. a loco either end with 2 loops. b,e,I.j worked under Ai control. lay the loops in the opposite direction to that of your main line, this helps encourage Ai to use them.

 

[thegrindre]

LOLOLOL I'm not laughing at anyone here, please don't take this the wrong way but, only at the situation at hand.
Do you realize how many answers I have received to what should have been a simple solution to a simple problem? I don't understand this at all... There should have been one answer with all of the rest of you agreeing to it. I'm more confused then ever, now. Which 'rule' should I apply in the future? Which one of you have given me the correct answer to my problem that I may apply to any track work I may construct in the future?
I've been told to lay track in all the same directon but fran1 says to change that.
John, from Razorback, has pointed me toward some reading material I believe I may have to read.

More confused then ever , now...

Thanks, guys

EDIT: Thanks, John. Excellent video tutorials. Something I was looking for...:Y:

 

[SpikeTop]

I've been following this thread along rather closely and have found it all to be quite interesting. I have also applied each scenario mentioned above to discover that when I've sent the AI drivers to 'Drive', some scenarios would work but, when I've sent the AI drivers to a specific location beyond the loops, the scenario wouldn't work.


My query is similar to thegrindre's. What is the 'standard of thumb', here? Is this all just trial and error? Is Aruan at fault for not properly setting up the signaling aspects in the game?


Spike Top

 

[Bill69]

signaling

Hi thegrindre,

I have spent lots of time getting AI drivers to perform quite complicated opperations, both in TRS2004 & TRS2006. The most reliable way to make them do what you want is to use drive to commands and wait for trigger commands. The wait for trigger command is kuid 57344 80001 download it if you don't have it.

Here are some screenshots, I hope I can explain them.



This first pic is just to show the trackmarks and you can possible see the trigger at the top left of the picture. If you have a passenger active station you do not need the station trackmark.
Just tell the driver to drive to (station name), (load), then next destination command.


Second pic is the slow goods train arriving and pulling into the loop. The driver instruction is:- drive to trackmark loop, stop train, wait for trigger, trigger main, by any train.


Third pic is the goods train waiting at the trackmark and the passenger train arriving at the station ( which isn't there)


Fourth pic Passenger train departing after loading. (yea right)



Fifth pic The passenger train has activated the trigger and the goods train is departing under a caution signal. Therefore it will travel at half speed until it gets a green signal. To avoid this and get the goods to depart on green place the trigger beyond two mainline signals. Also you must have a minimum of three signals round the single line section of track. Don't forget speed limit signs either or the trains will travel at the default speed all the way.

Hope this explains things clearly,
Bill69

Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting

 

[Red_Rattler]

I don't understand what you're calling a loop?

Just to clear that up, Australians (& probably UK) term for passing siding is a loop.

Okay, who named them AI drivers? Seems like another name should be found for them!!

Wait for Trigger commands
The only thing wrong with that, if the layout needs a lot of triggers, in Surveyor some trigger names get hidden, & it is impossible to scroll up/down for them - even when the screen is set to different resolutions.

There is a rule available that attempts to link signals to act like blocks, but -- when someone figures out how to work the rule, can they let us know??

 

[jdenm8]

There is a driver instruction "Drive Via Trackmark" (it should be built-in) and it might work. You just need to tell the Computer-controlled trains what to do. Place the trackmark on the loop (Passing siding, Bypass track) and tell one of the trains to drive via the trackmark you placed. Give it a special name. Then one train should drive Via the trackmark and the other via the Mainline.

 

[Bill69]

AI operations

There is a driver instruction "Drive Via Trackmark" (it should be built-in) and it might work. You just need to tell the Computer-controlled trains what to do. Place the trackmark on the loop (Passing siding, Bypass track) and tell one of the trains to drive via the trackmark you placed. Give it a special name. Then one train should drive Via the trackmark and the other via the Mainline.

Very true BUT, how do you get the train going through the loop to stop and wait till the orther train has passed with the drive via command???????

Bill69

 

[Red_Rattler]

Why won't one train pull into a siding to let the other train go by??? I've placed a signal at all lettered locations

TG, did you tell one of the trains to go via the loop?

There is a driver instruction "Drive Via Trackmark" (it should be built-in) and it might work.

Very true BUT, how do you get the train going through the loop to stop and wait till the orther train has passed with the drive via command???????

That's strange confused: ), because when I make a test layout with passing loops, add trackmarks, tell the trains to via XYZ, it works, BUT, but, when the same setup appears in a full layout, it doesn't usually work.

Thegrindre, have you tried placing a caution signal somewhere between the two loops? (although the test layout worked, even without caution signals)

 

[thegrindre]

OK, to be a little more specific, I'm building a narrow gauge route around the 1800 area and don't want any signals to show so, I'm using the invisible ones. I've read that the AI drivers only follow 3 signals anyway, Green, yellow, and red, period. This is the simplest form of signaling and that's what I am trying to do.
Unfortunately, I've run into the same problems as SpikeTop has in that sometimes they work and other times they don't.
All I'm trying to really do is signal a mountain pass. I don't want two trains at the top of the mountain at the same time. I want each train to wait at the bottom of the mountain until it is clear to pass.

Does this help any?

Thanks,

 

[fran1]

spike Top,
there is no standard rule of thumb. grindre's original set up should in theory have worked.to many signals for Ai in my opinion. however he said it did not. signal what you have with out going OTT, then add as necessary to make it work. What signalling works in real life may need to be adapted to suit trainz.

 

[Red_Rattler]

All I'm trying to really do is signal a mountain pass. I don't want two trains at the top of the mountain at the same time. I want each train to wait at the bottom of the mountain until it is clear to pass.

Does this help any?

Does this help? Hmm, I'm not sure TG, but try using a "wait for trigger" command, and ask it to wait for any train.

Invisible signals:
TG, if you don't want modern signals, have you tried downloading signalmen that are holding signal lamps?

 

[Bill69]

Signaling

OK, to be a little more specific, I'm building a narrow gauge route around the 1800 area and don't want any signals to show so, I'm using the invisible ones. I've read that the AI drivers only follow 3 signals anyway, Green, yellow, and red, period. This is the simplest form of signaling and that's what I am trying to do.
Unfortunately, I've run into the same problems as SpikeTop has in that sometimes they work and other times they don't.
All I'm trying to really do is signal a mountain pass. I don't want two trains at the top of the mountain at the same time. I want each train to wait at the bottom of the mountain until it is clear to pass.

Does this help any?

Thanks,

Hi again,
This puts a different light on the subject. It now seems your trains are running in the opposite direction to each other. If this is so you must not have any signals on the single line section. Only one singal protecting the entrance to the single line at each end. The down side of using invisible signals is, there is no invisible branch signal, only simple red, yellow, green. Therefore your departing train will always be running on a yellow or caution signal. However it should work with signals only and no triggers. You will require a minimum of three trackmarks on the single line section to stop the AI from backing up to get to the next trackmark mentioned in his orders.

Hope this helps,
Bill69

 

[thegrindre]

Yup, Bill69, that's it. I'm running trains in opposite directions to cross a mountain pass. It hit me to leave all signals off the mainline, (black), and signal the sidings only, (C,E,I,K), but that didn't always work either.

Will some engines follow 'rules' and signals and such better then others?