HST and Class 11

[IsambardKingdomBrunel]

Equally simple solution, keep your money in your pocket

Exactly but don't whinge and moan, when you don't get the same access as subscribers :hehe:

 

[Forester1]

Going back to the OP, I don't think he is whining about access per se, but he is saying that some assets are promised to non-subscribers after a certain amount of time but then appear to never be made available. So in essence he is claiming broken promises. I don't keep track of things that are not offered to me, so I have no idea, and I know some things are specifically given only to early adaptors and such, and I would have no idea what timeline N3V has planned for early preview assets to hit the mainstream, so I am not really commenting either way. It is just the way I read the OP.

 

[HPL]

At this time there are 7 DLCs that can't be purchased although they show a purchase price in the Store (listed in order of issuing):

• BR HST - Inter-City 125 & Midland Pullman
• CNJ Blue Comet 2.0 - The Seashore's Finest Train
• British Model Railway [this one including the Class 11]
• Amtrak Superliners
• LNER Peppercorn Class A1 60163 Tornado
• Datsun Junction Model Railroad
• Budd RDC-1

 

[pware]

At this time there are 7 DLCs that can't be purchased although they show a purchase price in the Store (listed in order of issuing):

• BR HST - Inter-City 125 & Midland Pullman
• CNJ Blue Comet 2.0 - The Seashore's Finest Train
• British Model Railway [this one including the Class 11]
• Amtrak Superliners
• LNER Peppercorn Class A1 60163 Tornado
• Datsun Junction Model Railroad
• Budd RDC-1

ALL of the above are advertised in the latest N3V newsletter as NEW releases that are available for Gold and/or Trainz Plus members. They are NOT YET available for non-members.

 

[pware]

Going back to the OP, I don't think he is whining about access per se, but he is saying that some assets are promised to non-subscribers after a certain amount of time but then appear to never be made available. So in essence he is claiming broken promises. I don't keep track of things that are not offered to me, so I have no idea, and I know some things are specifically given only to early adaptors and such, and I would have no idea what timeline N3V has planned for early preview assets to hit the mainstream, so I am not really commenting either way. It is just the way I read the OP.

You may well be correct, likewise I do not know. Can anyone point to an old N3V newsletter that lists Trainz+/Gold DLC items that have never (that word again) become available for non-subscribers despite the passing of some clearly identified timeline. If so is this a deliberate act, an oversight or a technical glitch?

These days it seems that the first response to a problem anywhere is to invoke a conspiracy theory and make an "angry" public post rather than make a polite inquiry through proper channels.

 

[amigacooke]

Exactly but don't whinge and moan, when you don't get the same access as subscribers :hehe:

I’ll try and be a model forum member, just like IKB.

 

[bolivar]

Bolivar's initial point is still valid despite the numerous attempts to divert attention from it. He is a TRS22 user that wants to buy DLC packages and N3V will not sell them to him. He wants to know why. Seems like a fair question to me. I suspect that the items he wants are not ready to go on sale yet.

Thank you Wreeder for succinctly describing what my initial post was asking. You are correct in stating that some jumped on this post to inject their own narrative. My expectation when I purchased TRS2022 was that the HST would eventually become available like all other Trainz store item. But for some reason that eludes me, this is not the case at all. So my frustration led me to believe that
1. N3V was trying get blood from a stone by dangling the carrot and trying to "milk" every last drop of money by tempting peeps to take out a subscription.
2.Which led me to the conclusion that N3V in its quest for profit has treated those of us, who by choice or circumstance cannot or do not want the subscription model, like pariahs. I feel like I have been pushed to one side after two decades of financial support for the company, firstly under the banner of Auran and now N3V, and that in their view I am below contempt. The arrogant and downright nasty attitude taken by their spokespeople, whether they be official or not, has certainly taken be by surprise.

 

[Paulsw2]

I have strong views about this. I don't object to SAAS per se - clearly, having a subscriber-base enables N3V to have a fairly secure, stable income/turnover that pays to keep the game up to date and to issue updates. This is preferable to issuing new versions of the game every 18-24 months and having to persuade the user-base to buy it all over again from scratch.

However, the subscriber-model in gaming should essentially be for the game engine and environment, NOT the content, which should be available to the user-base as DLC. That way you maximise profits - users subscribe for the latest version of the game and pay for the DLC to run on it. In the case of a Train sim, this actually parallels real-world modelling as people who follow the hobby typically want to collect models (even if they haven't got much of a layout to run them on!) but to own not to rent. So DLC - if of sufficient quality - can be a very useful income-generator (and I believe is now a significant part of N3V's income stream.)

As HPL notes, above, there are now a number of items of content that are bundled-in with the subscription and are not available to the full user-base as genuine DLC:
• BR HST - Inter-City 125 & Midland Pullman
• CNJ Blue Comet 2.0 - The Seashore's Finest Train
• British Model Railway [this one including the Class 11]
• Amtrak Superliners
• LNER Peppercorn Class A1 60163 Tornado
• Datsun Junction Model Railroad
• Budd RDC-1
I'm not sure, but I wonder if the WCR class 47 (and accompanying Mk1 coaches) also falls into this category? In addition, note that the Tornado pack also includes (bizarrely) the full set of blue and grey Mk1 coaches (even if they are the wrong colour and the wheels don't go round.)

The other stuff I can live without, but having the HST and Mk1 coaches bundled in this way is significant. Firstly, if I cease to pay the 'rent' (subscription) I will lose access to these models (which are pretty essential to anyone modelling BR in the 1970s and 80s.) Secondly, these models cannot be used in sessions uploaded to the DLS for any route that I am building. Or rather, they can be uploaded, but very few people will be able to use them. It's a long established principle in Trainz that uploaded routes (and their accompanying sessions) are available to a wide as possible user base. This has tended to militate against using payware models in the past, but at least with DLC it is available to the full user-base for a one-off cost. If content is increasingly bundled with the subscription, then we are going to see the emergence of a two-tier community of those who can afford a subscription and those who can't (who increasingly have to make do with a bargain-basement version of the game.)

I see that N3V and their supporters keep referring to the bundled content as a 'reward'. It does not feel like a reward to have to pay an eternal subscription for items of content that are essential for the era you are modelling. It feels like blackmail.

Final point, all these marvellous items of new DLC content for UK Trainz - where are the screenshots on the forum? No-one appears to be using them as far as I can see. In some cases this is because they are too niche (class 11, WCR class 47); in others because they are defective (class 42 Warship with no nameplates); but for the rest there is the suspicion that models bundled-in with a subscription do not appeal to the wider Trainz public. I wonder why?

Paul

 

[pware]

As HPL notes, above, there are now a number of items of content that are bundled-in with the subscription and are not available to the full user-base as genuine DLC:
• BR HST - Inter-City 125 & Midland Pullman
• CNJ Blue Comet 2.0 - The Seashore's Finest Train
• British Model Railway [this one including the Class 11]
• Amtrak Superliners
• LNER Peppercorn Class A1 60163 Tornado
• Datsun Junction Model Railroad
• Budd RDC-1

And as I posted immediately after HPL's post, these items are in the latest newsletter as new content available initially (and that seems to be a point of contention but with no supporting evidence as yet) only for subscribers.

So it seems that the complaint(s) come down to the fact that subscribers, as well as getting additional program features such as Surveyor 2.0 and, in the next iteration, HD Terrain, are also getting *free* additional content that is not available, for a set period at least, to non-subscribers. I emphasise the *free* because subscribers are really paying for this, admittedly at a great discount, in their subscription.

If I was a cynic I would probably believe that this is simply a case of "sour grapes" or "envy". But, as I actually know for a fact, all of us Trainzers are totally beyond that sort of petty juvenile behaviour so it must be something else that is creating this angst. I am still awaiting enlightenment.

 

[pware]

As a side (off topic??), but not unrelated issue, what would the reaction be in the following hypothetical scenario?

So far all the the new features in Trainz Plus are in the Surveyor interface, not the route data itself (as far as I am aware). But eventually a creator will use the new (yet to be officially released) HD Terrain feature to build and upload a new route that would, obviously, only be useable in Trainz Plus

Would it make any difference if the route was DLC or DLS?

There are routes currently on the DLS that will only run in TRS19 or TRS22 and exclude users who only have T:ANE or earlier.

This scenario will not be "hypothetical" for much longer.

Opinions please.

 

[Paulsw2]

[deleted....]

 

[Paulsw2]

And as I posted immediately after HPL's post, these items are in the latest newsletter as new content available initially (and that seems to be a point of contention but with no supporting evidence as yet) only for subscribers.

So it seems that the complaint(s) come down to the fact that subscribers, as well as getting additional program features such as Surveyor 2.0 and, in the next iteration, HD Terrain, are also getting *free* additional content that is not available, for a set period at least, to non-subscribers. I emphasise the *free* because subscribers are really paying for this, admittedly at a great discount, in their subscription.

If I was a cynic I would probably believe that this is simply a case of "sour grapes" or "envy". But, as I actually know for a fact, all of us Trainzers are totally beyond that sort of petty juvenile behaviour so it must be something else that is creating this angst. I am still awaiting enlightenment.

Not sure what you're driving at here - I have a full Gold subscription so I have access to everything for the next year. Beyond that, who knows?

Paul

 

[pware]

I just went back and surveyed all the posts in this thread. I noted with interest that ALL the negative posts about the additional DLC provided to subscription holders have been made by posters who do not have the subscription.

 

[bolivar]

@pware, did the same thing, interestingly I found that the most nasty, arrogant and downright offensive posts were from those who do have a subscription. Yup, I guess it depends on what side of the fence one sits, Hmm?

 

[pware]

... I think its called the "Digital Divide"?

 

[bolivar]

Well on that, we can certainly agree.
I am going to ask mods to close this thread down. Nothing of value can be gained by this back and forth. Cheers to all and thanks for your input.

 

[Tony_Hilliam]

I disagree that nothing of value can be gained from threads like this. Well reasoned posts that present opinions on our business model do help guide future decisions.

For example, the distinction being drawn between DLC which can be purchased, versus membership content which is only [currently] available through subscription is interesting. If someone used items from more than a couple of DLC packages, the cost for DLC would be higher than an annual sub.

As for memberships being out of reach for some people I would say if you can't afford $2 a week then you need to find a cheaper hobby. Or perhaps you need to be a member for a month, cancel, take a break and save up for a month, and rejoin the next month.

The old model was a new version every 3-4 years, and that still applies today. The difference is you are seeing "parts" of the content and features coming out in the interim period, and for some reason, you feel that this makes you a "pariah".

I would say learn to embrace memberships (whether you participate or not) as our overall product is improving because of the new business model.

You'll get access to everything just as you did before memberships arrived. It's up to you whether to enjoy the wait, feel like it's unfair that you have to wait, or jump onboard and enjoy the rewards now.

 

[pware]

It does not feel like a reward to have to pay an eternal subscription for items of content that are essential for the era you are modelling. It feels like blackmail.

I make a point of avoiding any DLC or "Payware" content in my routes and sessions that I upload to the DLS. This now extends to any "Packaged" assets that are not on the DLS. I do my utmost to weed them out before I upload.

It has not hampered my efforts to recreate a region or an era. I have always managed to find alternatives that are either "Built-in" or on the DLS.

ADDENDUM: If you include DLC assets in your uploaded route then you are locking out all users who do not have access to the same DLC package - isn't that also a form of "blackmail"?

 

[amigacooke]

I disagree that nothing of value can be gained from threads like this. Well reasoned posts that present opinions on our business model do help guide future decisions.

Obviously, from N3V's point of view, the subscription model is ideal. A regular flow of income must make budgeting far easier.

Sadly, I have to look at the deal from my point of view. The best value for money is buying the product for a one off amount, probably in a sale. I have never purchased TRS22 as it's major new feature is not one I have a use for. I hope one fine day to be using HD terrain, S20 and TLR, but when they're done, not in development.

If content is being sold exclusively to one group of Trainz users, it would be helpful to know how long that exclusivity will last after product launch. If N3V are intending to go subscription only, that would be good to know as well.

 

[IsambardKingdomBrunel]

I’ll try and be a model forum member, just like IKB.

I never claimed to be a model forum member.

I say what i think, if you don't like it or don't agree.

Put me on your ignore list.