Heat Issue

[boleyd]

I installed a program (APP) called Core Temp. Well, it is possibly quite revealing. I initially set it with no alerts. The read-out did show some cores hitting the 100c mark, which is the clock throttling point. But Trainz worked ok. Then I started to occasionally get Trainz errors but they "did no harm" when I continued. Later I set alarms and the they went off frequently at the 100c point but Trainz continued ok.

I narrowed down the culprit - EDITING. Making changes to areas of turf tripped the 100c mark consistently. I am blaming it on PBR which is visually appealing. The amount of calculations got way beyond just laying down colored pixels on an existing elevation. PBR has to do that and in the context of "wavy" elevations as well. At least that is my guess.

Normal panning around is not a heat problem. It is only seems to be an issue when editing PBR texture and elevations of PBR. Following a train at ground level has temperatures in the 89c range. I need more structured testing to be sure. I tried a mass replacement of a PBR texture but it locked up Trainz on the large route.

Note: all four fans are running. Opened the side panel for more ventilation but no help.

I installed my last motherboard about 8 years ago. Is there still a separate CPU fan on the current crop? 1 year old PC, Windows-11
Dick

 

[Lewiscc65]

I know what you are talking about. I just built a new computer and have 2 fans blowing air in and 4 fans blowing heat out, 2 on the water cooler. And it is running at 78C when I run trainz and about 35C to 40C in normal operations.

 

[autodctr]

I have a Ryzen 9 7900 with 32g RAM and an RTX 3080. Running at 60fps, core temps are usually around 60 - 70C. With no limit on fps, they and the GPU temps escalate almost immediately. So, it depends on what your settings are as to the temp. Also, the amount of trains on the route: moving or not moving, will run the CPU temps right up.

 

[boleyd]

I have no heat issue while operating the train scenarios. It only occurs during the edit of textured areas. As an example editing an area to change elevation cause alarms (100c). Just running multiple trains, while following one of them, is in the +80c range. Almost all of my textures are PBR- looks good. I tried a bulk change to an older non-PBR texture and the program locked up. I presume it was due to the large size of the route and thus the expanse of the grass texture (PBR-8). I can edit (with alarms) ok but I feel I am playing with fire-literally.

I forgot to mention that reducing the options to minimum did not help. D-PBRing near all the tracks is probably the only answer.
I considered water-cooling but the thought of one little leak costing $1500 and the loss of date caused me to skip that option.

 

[JCitron]

PBR textures are really CPU and GPU intensive and really increase the processing and power consumption. This is more evident when you're up-close during editing than when you're in the cab driving.

The case can really matter when it comes to heat dissipation. Many prebuilt computers come with cases that are too small for the components used. Imagine squeezing a huge RTX4090 into a medium sized tower. They may fit but there's little space for the heat to get out of the case. It doesn't help that the CPU is also working hard and putting out hot air, and what doesn't help further is many of the newer CPUs run really, really hot such as the Intel i9 CPUs which will run close to their maximum of 100 C.

With my Dell 8950, I ended up opening up the side panel and placing an old-fashioned box fan in front of the opened case. In addition to the box fan, I also run MSI Afterburner to control my GPU fans and I setup an automatic fan curve to ensure that the temperatures remain reasonable for the GPU with the maximum temperature settling at 72 C instead of reaching the maximum of 83 C for my RTX3080. Prior to opening the case, the GPU was throttling due to not only basking in its own heat but also that from the CPU, and the box fan helps even more. With the fan and the case open, my water-cooled CPU too runs a lot cooler than before because the idiots at Dell designed the case so that the fan attached to the AIO cooler faces inward instead of outward causing all the heat to remain inside the case.

I remember from my tech days that components do weaken and fail over time when run at a constant high temperature and given the cost of these boards is so high, I'm ensuring that I get the best lifetime out of the parts before upgrading to another system.

 

[autodctr]

Okay.....I misunderstood.....or more likely misread. One thing that I tried a long time ago when I had a much lesser machine was to turn the shadows off while I was working on a route. That seemed to lower temps just a bit and also the save times.

 

[afe_uy]

It would be necessary to distinguish between the work of the cpu/gpu and the dissipation capacity of the cabinet...
Personally I have the same simple case from 12 years ago and my 3060 dual fits just right (actually I can't put a hard drive at same height).
I have an inlet fan at the front and another as an extractor at the rear, which helps the one from the power source and none on the side.
The front is not used ... in fact I have not connected it.
Without the rear the cpu goes to 58°C(132°F) and the 3060 (12GB) reaches 82°C (180°F).
Just adding the rear, the flux is enough to lower the cpu to 55° ( 130°F) and the 3060 doesn't exceed 69°C ( 156°F) so it works comfortably...
The cpu is a 65w Ryzen 5600g

 

[boleyd]

This is my first pre-built pc after 25 years. It has three front and one rear fan. Given the lighting, which I do note see a need for, I tend to believe that the three LED lighted front fans contribute very little due to case geometry. I could just bolt a fan on top for stronger inward airflow. Oh well, the trains run ok and if I am careful, editing will not overheat the thing. THANKS for all the inputs.

 

[JCitron]

This is my first pre-built pc after 25 years.

Same for me as well. My older, ca. 2015 machine, took a power hit when my UPS died, and I needed to replace it. I knew this wasn't good for the parts and I was running on borrowed time and I was waiting until I could afford the parts. It was working okay until the GPUs and other parts were at their highest cost ever, and then the machine died. Without a working desktop and unable to afford the individual parts, I decided to go for a pre-built machine.

My brother had gotten a Dell a short time before and I decided to do the same. I've had good luck with Dell computers over the years in corporate support, and I had an old Dell laptop that still worked pretty well considering it was almost 10 years old. Well, I was in for a disappointment! The components are great, but the case is horrible with inadequate cooling for the most expensive components in the box. When I looked at the Dell forums, I saw many complaints about the high temperatures inside the case with little in the way of support from Dell.

It would be necessary to distinguish between the work of the cpu/gpu and the dissipation capacity of the cabinet...
Personally I have the same simple case from 12 years ago and my 3060 dual fits just right (actually I can't put a hard drive at same height).

The old desktop I was using was one I put together using a case around the same age. The ancient Corsair 980D case with hot-swappable hard drive bays, loads of fans, and options for water-cooling, really was quite versatile and I was able to keep my parts nice and cool. My GTX1080 TI started up at 32 C, air-cooled and got no warmer than 65C. The Intel Extreme 5960 CPU never got above 58 C and even the hard drives remained cool. I still have the case and if I ever build a new machine, I'll definitely put it to use. I'll need to replace the fans though because they are the original ones and were starting to have some wear-related issues when the motherboard had died.

 

[boleyd]

Indeed the case IS the mainstay for a PC. May be surprising but the plastic and metal boxes with colored lights are not engineered - they are designed!

My old PC uses a Cooler Master case, that alone weighs 45 pounds. Fans on top, back, one side and the power supply fan on the bottom, exhaust in back. Turned it on yesterday and it still works Plus it has Windows-10. Throw in a new motherboard with solid state storage and a many core CPU, it will beat any prebuild. Due to age I ain't doin no building.... Hanging around for Living World.

 

[JCitron]

I agree. Unfortunately, there's a trend to make the form instead of the function with little in the way of airflow and do other fancy things with flashing lights and baubles instead of using a case for the true purpose of holding the computer components and providing adequate airflow to them as well.

The good news is Fractal Design that has bucked the trend with this awesome case.

Amazon.com: Fractal Design Define 7 XL Black Solid Brushed Aluminum/Steel E-ATX Silent Modular Full Tower Computer Case : Electronics

If I build a new machine, I may look into this one.

This is similar to the old Corsair case I have from 2009 with the multiple drive bays and plenty of space for fans and water cooling.

 

[boleyd]

Well, I still needed a solution or eventually suffer a failed CPU. So I had some 4 inch fans setting around for my old PC case. I noticed that the old cased had a fan On TOP orientated to exhaust.. This was in addition to the rear fan. So I connected the 4 inch fan to my 12volt power supply. I set it on top of the new "deluxe" case to exhaust. Well two things happened. First I noticed reduced airflow from the original rear facing fan. Second after a lot of texture and elevation editing I had no 100c alarms. Temp did hit 96C on some cores, but within limits. This was after an extensive editing session.

I did not want to connect the fan to the PC power. I do not know how far it is from its max rating. Once I get the courage I will strip down the designer case and see what can be changed. Oh, so far the rear fan is not hot despite operating in a partial vacuum.

 

[JCitron]

Well, I still needed a solution or eventually suffer a failed CPU. So I had some 4 inch fans setting around for my old PC case. I noticed that the old cased had a fan On TOP orientated to exhaust.. This was in addition to the rear fan. So I connected the 4 inch fan to my 12volt power supply. I set it on top of the new "deluxe" case to exhaust. Well two things happened. First I noticed reduced airflow from the original rear facing fan. Second after a lot of texture and elevation editing I had no 100c alarms. Temp did hit 96C on some cores, but within limits. This was after an extensive editing session.

I did not want to connect the fan to the PC power. I do not know how far it is from its max rating. Once I get the courage I will strip down the designer case and see what can be changed. Oh, so far the rear fan is not hot despite operating in a partial vacuum.

Modern fans tend to be lower current compared to those from years ago, so that shouldn't be a problem. If anything, check the power rating on your power supply and add up the wattage and power draw on the fans. I doubt that they will make much of a difference.

I had a similar issue many years ago with a designer case I had. I took the rear exhaust fan and turned it around as an intake fan. This case did have the ability to and install additional fan inside the side panel of the case. This location so happened to line up with the video card that still wasn't cooling down enough, so by putting the large fan in there to pull the hot air out and away from the video card. This had the benefit of not only pulling the hot air away from the video card, but also this pulled out the additional hot air that built up inside the case and prevented the CPU from cooling down even with the exhaust fan pulling the heat out of the top of the case.

 

[ColPrice2002]

The last pc I bought from an assembler (highly rated UK) had a range of cases available. I chose a “Fractal” case - 2 fans front, pushing air in, one extractor on top, one extractor at rear. Option to add another fan…

No problems with overheating.
the other issue is that many PCs seem to come in micro ATX format - while smaller and taking less space, there’s less volume of air, so it may run hotter!

 

[boleyd]

I have added a large fan on top of the case at the opposite end from the exhaust fan. It is blowing cool air downward in a manner similar to the three colorful fans in the case. The ambient temperature is lowered. However, editing swaths of textures and elevations is a killer. Almost instantly temperature jumps to the 100c thermal cutoff. Maybe the thermal paste is misapplied. I am at a loss. I looked at water-cooling Setting aside the possible leakage, i remain reluctant to dismount the cpu fan for the install. The very rapid increase in the temperature seems to say that AMBIENT cooling may not be an answer.

Few people probably monitor their CPU temperatures thus other may be in same situation, unknowingly.

Core Temp 1.18 is the monitoring program that I use.

 

[ColPrice2002]

Hi,
having fried a cpu using TRS2006 (the cpu was tasked with both running the program and rendering the graphics), I do keep a careful watch on the temps.
there are a number of after market cpu coolers around - some liquid cooled others are enhanced heat sinks and cooling fans ranging from £10 to £120 in the uk (20% tax included).
my pc has a water cooling system (corsair) and is still fine >5 years.

I suspect that the standard cpu cooler supplied doesn’t expect 100% usage for extended periods.

 

[boleyd]

Yes, there were many bad comments about the CPU coolers when I was building my old PC. I put a large copper fin unit on my i5 cpu, over clocked it to max, and never had an issue for several years. Today it continues to work without problems. I just need the courage, at an advanced age, to remove the cooler, the motherboard and install a new one.

 

[autodctr]

I have no heat issue while operating the train scenarios. It only occurs during the edit of textured areas. As an example editing an area to change elevation cause alarms (100c). Just running multiple trains, while following one of them, is in the +80c range. Almost all of my textures are PBR- looks good. I tried a bulk change to an older non-PBR texture and the program locked up. I presume it was due to the large size of the route and thus the expanse of the grass texture (PBR-8). I can edit (with alarms) ok but I feel I am playing with fire-literally.

I forgot to mention that reducing the options to minimum did not help. D-PBRing near all the tracks is probably the only answer.
I considered water-cooling but the thought of one little leak costing $1500 and the loss of date caused me to skip that option.

I had to go back and find this. Interesting thing happened today: I went into my latest layout to edit it. However, Just as I got into it, my wife needed me in the cellar. So, without editing a single thing, I went to the cellar. Returning to the PC about 10 minutes later, the fans were pretty much ramped up: sounded like a Boeing readying for take-off. Why? I don't understand why the temps would go up when literally nothing was being done!

 

[JCitron]

Trainz really pushes the hardware. My video card fans scream when I'm editing. It's the only program that does that too.

If you have no activity, meaning your machine crashed, I'd be concerned about your CPU. A failed CPU will cause the fans on some systems to spin out of control due to the power management logic on the motherboard not doing anything.

 

[boleyd]

Use a free program like Core Temp to give a detailed temperature of the CPU.
Same reason to use MSI Afterburner to check the video card temperature. Narrows things down. You now know the culprit and the big challenge maybe correction.