Graphics settings
- Thread starter Twowit2woo
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Twowit2woo
Member
Thanks for that. Shadow Quality is what did it
Good to hear!Thanks for that. Shadow Quality is what did it
As I said, there are so many combinations of things that can cause issues and shadows is one of them. For my machine, shadows are fine but it was the trees that caused the stuttering and higher graphics settings. I too have large cities, but I use the old-fashioned, but still very viable Dave Drake's (dmdrake) city blocks. These are single objects that fill in large areas really nicely with little overhead too.
That's what Vsync does, (assuming 60hz monitors) 'Half' will limit your framerate to 30 for typically a smoother experience. While you may get 41 FPS in some spots of a route with it off, they will, sometimes drastically, jump higher or lower in other sections. Vsync maintains a consistent 30 (or 60 for 'Full') as long as your graphics card is powerful enough to display above that FPS as you move around.
I have found this post of yours and is very interesting. I use lots of sketch-up models (building cities is very hard to find good models that resemble florida or things like that). I was wondering if that can be the reason of my freezes, as I currently run out of ideas and the problem becomes more and more frustrating.
johnwhelan
Well-known member
When a game is produced professionally the scene creators work with a budget of how many polys they can use. If you look at manage content and preview asset it will show you the number of polys and textures that are required. Fewer is better. Sketchup has three problems when a beam crosses another in blender each beam is 12 polys so 24 polys in total. In sketchup it breaks the beams up into sections so it becomes 5 times 12 or 60 polys. Sketchup has a tendency to use one texture per face so the number of textures can get quite high which is more files for Trainz to keep track of. The last is the lack of LOD although if you can keep the poly count down below 400-500 polys this doesn't really matter.
If you have the textures a scenery object is quite easy to create in Blender especially if you have a plan and photos of what you're after.
Cheerio John
Thank you very much for your detailed answer!
When I try to import from sketchup, I tend to limit the polys under 5k, however the textures are a big problem, making the model go up even to 150 MB each.
When you export a model from sketchup, it shows it has 10k polygons, but under it says textures polygons, which is 30k in this case. I wonder if this has an impact in trainz, as it is now shown when you preview an asset.
I wish I had the time and knowledge to make my own assets, however even the imports take time considering you also need to make a night mesh.
My freezes are random and seem like a hiccup. The engine seems to not work, because when the freeze happens, the game menus (content manager) works fine, but previewing an asset doesn't work.
All the best and thank you!
johnwhelan
Well-known member
That freeze is another issue. I've run into that recently myself which I've discussed before. The most recent time was while coupling on to a consist. The freeze occurred during the coupling movement and then the program unfroze causing my locomotive to surge forward pushing a string of boxcars off the end of the siding. Other times, this occurred in Surveyor and this is where I came across it and thought it was related to something I was doing at the time.
With Sketch-up models, you'll see a patch of stuttering that goes away when you move to another spot on your route.
There are other situations where this kind of freeze occurs and from experience this is related to something that's corrupted. I had some buoys on the Gloucester Terminal Electric route that marked a river channel. These dated back to when George Fisher built the route originally in TRS2006 or TS2009. The problem only occurred in one particular area and only when I faced the camera or moved in that area in Surveyor. Once I passed through the area, the problem went away until I loaded the route again.
After telling myself every time I loaded the route that I should look into the problem, I finally looked into the problem and I deleted objects, replaced objects, and even relayed the track in that area all to no avail. After removing what I thought were the most obvious items, I came across the buoys. I deleted the red buoy and that solved the problem. These tiny buoys, probably the size of tiny bugs, on my monitor, were bringing the route to a standstill at that one place.
_METALMANIA_
Member
For me, the game is basically not smooth and it often stutters and the notebook gets really loud in the main menu, which is not the case with many AAA titles. Meanwhile, my RX 6850M XT and the Ryzen as well as the 32 GB RAM are really a very strong combination, but Trainz doesn't seem to be enough or Trainz is just fundamentally poor in performance. I haven't had it on my PC at all since I reinstalled my Windows because I gave up.
Thank you for your answer!
In recent years I have seen the game improve a lot, but the versions are more and more unstable, making the game crash or have problems way more often than before. As you have played the game for a longer time than I do, I think you can confirm that versions like 2009 or 2012 (even though not as good as what we have today) were not giving problems like this.
The coupling problem I have seen before, I was helping out a guy who posted a video on discord and we looked for days into the problem, think it is either the ACSlib, an AI train that was moving around or from his graphics card. Apparently installing the Pottery line DLC was creating a new ACSlib, while the AI train was overloading his GPU, making it crash when the ai was close to coupling.
Regarding my issue, I have tried to make a new route and merge with the existing one thinking there may be something corrupt. One more theory I have was regarding the v-sync. If you remember I talked to you about a problem regarding the splines not rendering and flickering when were laid down in surveyor, turning on v-sync solved the issue. I can estimate the crashes appeared after turning v-sync on but no confirmation. I have some buoys too, so definitely will go delete them
All the best!
Well, Trainz doesn't really like to run on laptops, is running hard even on my desktop, so I understand your issue.
johnwhelan
Well-known member
Trainz uses a lot of end user content some of which is more computer friendly than others. Middleton for laptops will run on your machine without stuttering etc. It is just a matter of choosing content carefully.
Cheerio John
Interesting issue with V-sync. Ensure your graphics drivers are up-to-date for that. I haven't seen anything like that unless it zapped me and I didn't realize what that may be. I wouldn't be surprised if the coupling issue is related to the old ACSlib. There are some people working on an update for that. I don't know of a confirmed ETA on a full release.Thank you for your answer!
In recent years I have seen the game improve a lot, but the versions are more and more unstable, making the game crash or have problems way more often than before. As you have played the game for a longer time than I do, I think you can confirm that versions like 2009 or 2012 (even though not as good as what we have today) were not giving problems like this.
The coupling problem I have seen before, I was helping out a guy who posted a video on discord and we looked for days into the problem, think it is either the ACSlib, an AI train that was moving around or from his graphics card. Apparently installing the Pottery line DLC was creating a new ACSlib, while the AI train was overloading his GPU, making it crash when the ai was close to coupling.
Regarding my issue, I have tried to make a new route and merge with the existing one thinking there may be something corrupt. One more theory I have was regarding the v-sync. If you remember I talked to you about a problem regarding the splines not rendering and flickering when were laid down in surveyor, turning on v-sync solved the issue. I can estimate the crashes appeared after turning v-sync on but no confirmation. I have some buoys too, so definitely will go delete them
All the best!
Are you merging the new route into the old or the other way around?
TS2009 - 2012 were far from 100% stable. All of these versions had their share of issues which unfortunately moved on between versions. TS2009 used to randomly produce spikes on the terrain. I had a row of them appear on one route and they happened to show up in the middle of a lake. I lowered them a bit and turned them into a string of islands.
TS2010 had an issue with undo. If you used it one too many times, you'd end up with disconnected splines including track. The splines and track too would then spring off into space and randomly attach themselves to other assets, such as grade crossings on the other side of the route, or remain up in space. It was disheartening to see the bowl of spaghetti. There were other quirky things such as water turning clear. Yes, water lost its color no matter what and turned literally into clear water. Mine went from water to what appeared to be the dried soup mix found in Lipton packaged noodle soup then when I exited the water turned clear. This was on all routes and that finally got fixed in TS12.
TS12... HA! That version had issues. CTD when merging routes initially and fixed by HF1, awful sound problems requiring audio file editing to solve, purely awful performance with SP1, HF4, and the worst of all TADAEMON running for hours validating content. We were told that we could continue to build or drive routes, but that was an outright lie. Impossible because when that issue occurred, the CPU was pegged at 100%!
Among the other annoying bugs was track-objects losing their position when adding a spline point. Add in a junction and all the signals, speed limit signs, bridge abutments, and anything else that's a track-object would end up somewhere else on the route! I had one stretch of track on my large route that became devoid of all objects. As I was adding them back in, this was before discovering what the problem was, I found all my track-objects in one clump stacked on top of each other at a bridge along the tracks. I deleted a signal, only to find another, another, and another all interlaced and fitting together like they were put that way deliberately. The same with signs, speed limits, switch stands and even bridge abutments. This reminded me of tipping the route on end with all the track-objects sliding down the tracks to the end.
TRS2004 and TRS2006 were very buggy too with TRS2006 being worse. If you looked the wrong way, it would crash and you needed to install SP1 prior to running the program, otherwise, you could never install the service pack. There are so many other bugs and issues, that this could be yet another topic.
Probably I remember them being more stable as I have great memories from these years, but now I remember some of the issues you mentioned.
I have merged the old route into the new one, hoping this will fix some corrupted files.
In another forum, I pointed out that some good assets (MSGSapper, CUK) are very high poly. Apparently, I was told that even assets with 100k poly can be handled well if you have a good computer, but then why would the game engine (I have a pretty good computer) struggles to load my sketchup models? The game engine is not made for this kind of assets, doesn't matter what card you have.
Here is the forum: https://forums.auran.com/threads/content-by-msgsapper.83363/page-149#post-2010848
johnwhelan
Well-known member
There is nothing wrong with the game engine. Well there are a few bugs but it works quite happily rendering content. Trainz runs an a wide range of hardware. All you need is an RTX 4090 powered by an AMD Ryzen 9 7950X, with 64 gigs of DDR5 memory and four NMVE disk drives. ASUS make a nice NMVE disk holder. With this machine you can run Sketchup models without too many problems.
For lower powered machines you can use the sliders or select the content more carefully and you'll certainly want to avoid assets without LOD.
Cheerio John
For lower powered machines you can use the sliders or select the content more carefully and you'll certainly want to avoid assets without LOD.
Cheerio John
We all have great memories of the older versions when using the current ones. When we're on TRS2099, we'll remember TRS22 and relations, in the same way. ;-)
High poly assets are fine as long as they are constructed okay. The issue with Sketch-up models is how they're created. Sketch-up uses a different method to create the original model. When that model is converted to a model with polygons from the b-spline format, the translation creates many more polygons to create the same surface of the original model. The number of polygons is only part of the issue. Remember what we said about the textures? When a model utilizes a UVW map, which is like a decal sheet for physical models, they can render quickly and put less load on the GPU because all the textures are loaded into memory at once on the video card. With Sketch-up models, the textures are individual textures because when the model is translated, the surfaces become slices of polygons instead of a single sheet as they are in b-splines. These individual textures put an extra load on the system because it has to read each one individually even if they are the same because the GPU has to read the coordinates of each and every texture as if it's a new texture.
Another issue, which also plagues some other non-Sketch-up models, is double-sided polygons. Instead of being rendered only on the side that's facing outwards and can be seen, Sketch-up models, from my observations are always double-sided. This makes the graphics card do the work twice for every texture that needs to be rendered. With single-sided texturing, the walls are invisible when we go inside the models. There are many examples of these on the DLS. For some models, double-sided textures are not a problem, but for others it is. This has always been the case and we need to pick and choose carefully what we're going to use.
To add insult to injury, Sketch-up doesn't create LOD targets. These are the same model as the original, placed in the same location at lower resolutions. N3V, like many companies, has set a specific level of detail (LOD) at certain distances from the close-up model. At a certain distance away from the original, the model is rendered at 80% detail, followed by less a further distance away, to eventually the original model being nothing more than a flat plane or tiny cube with an image on it. There are many high-polygon models, not just Sketch-up that do not have LOD and N3V is enforcing this with new versions of models but not older ones. As you know, we'll eventually see older models with errors due to no LOD and the fur will fly over that.
Without LOD, models are rendered at their full detail regardless of the distance from the camera. For low resolution models, this isn't so much a problem with the exception of them popping up suddenly when they come into view. With high resolution models, this becomes an issue, and with Sketch-up models with all the other issues associated with them, this becomes more of a problem because even if they're not rendered in view, they are loaded and ready to pop up suddenly. This is why there's that drag on the system with Sketch-up models. They're hogging resources constantly and only make matters worse when they're competing with other objects on the route in an area.
Now, with all that said, can you use Sketch-up models? You can use them but use them sparingly and don't fill a city with them. On one of my routes, I use some mills buildings that are Sketch-up models with no performance issues at all compared to other parts of the route. Note the word some. I didn't use 20 of them, and instead only 3 or 4 buildings instead.
One more thought on this. If someone is creating Sketch-up models, they should import them into Blender and do some finish work on them to create LOD targets and fix the textures. RRSignal did that with his buildings, but not everyone has done that. This will make Sketch-up models more useful without the problems that they have.
I understand now what you mean, thank you for the details. I did not know how it worked very well with ketchup. I mention the .tga files, which make the model size very big.
The LOD is really efficient and useful, I wonder if lowering the render distance would help reduce the effects of no LOD models.
I will use less SketchUp models and do a mix, so the effects won't affect performance a lot.
Importing and editing the models in blender would improve the performance, however, who does that? I also don't like people that people do not add nightmode to their objects. They are not usable in cities if you want to make a night scene.
The LOD is really efficient and useful, I wonder if lowering the render distance would help reduce the effects of no LOD models.
I will use less SketchUp models and do a mix, so the effects won't affect performance a lot.
Importing and editing the models in blender would improve the performance, however, who does that? I also don't like people that people do not add nightmode to their objects. They are not usable in cities if you want to make a night scene.
Lowering the distance may help with the lack of LOD but then again there's that trade-off of losing the distant scenery. I generally go no higher than 10km unless there are distant mountains to see. I find that it's a waste of resources if I'm driving mostly through close-up urban scenery and tree tunnels as it is where I live.
That's a good plan with the Sketch-up models. We were all caught short by them when they became available through the converter. I "created" and uploaded a ton of buildings and so did a lot of others. As I said, using a few here and there is fine due to the too much of a good thing effect.
Large .tga files are a more recent issue. There's a possibility that the content-creator used a higher than necessary resolution for the textures. I've had buildings load really slow when I've previewed and sought out alternatives.
The only content-creator I know of that fixed up Sketch-up models from the Creator Warehouse is RRSignal. He took the buildings found there that he uploaded and worked with them. There may be others that I'm not aware of.
If you are looking for large city blocks, I recommend Dave Drake's (dmdrake) Cityscape series. There are some on the DLS.
