Modelling UK Signaling in the 1950s and 60s

[Tanker46]

Hello Everyone,

It's my first time posting in the General Thread but I wasn't exactly sure where this topic would fit in.

For those who don't frequent the UK Trainz threads, I'm currently working on modelling the entire Southern Region of British Railways in three separate routes that will eventually be merged upon completion into one massive route. I'm currently working on the first part of this project which will cover all of South London and almost all of the London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway from Brighton to Newhaven. The tracklaying of the route is now 85 percent complete and I am starting the scenery development of the route for it's beta release in the near future.

Currently I have begun installing signals on the main line between London and Brighton and I have noticed through my research material that BR had begun installing Color Aspect Signals in place of the tradition Semaphore Signals.] Below I have provided several photographic examples of BR(S) Aspect Signals along the Brighton Main Line:

My question is this: currently in Trainz do these kinds of signals exist in any capacity or has any content creator made 1950s/1960s Aspect Signals for use on routes in more modern versions of Trainz? It's one of the biggest holes in operation on this route and one of the last boxes I have to tick on the main line. I could really use the wisdom of veteran Trainz users more experienced than myself here.

 

[stagecoach]

You could search for Sig BR (S) and Sig 3A. They are semaphore and light signals.

 

[pfx]

I can't say I've seen any of the Southern approach light signals and the only standard colour light ones I've seen that don't have a rectangular surround only have a rounded top. I think there were only two aspect ones available.

You may well have seen the following link before, https://www.railsigns.uk/info/appsig1.html

 

[Paulsw2]

I think some of the Bloodnok colour light signals had some Southern variants (eg. in terms of the gantries used). But truth to tell, we've not had any new colour light signals in UK Trainz for quite a few years. And none that exploit the new features in TRS19 and 22 (ie. PBR texturing). Perhaps this could be a project for a gifted signal creator?

 

[Tanker46]

I think some of the Bloodnok colour light signals had some Southern variants (eg. in terms of the gantries used). But truth to tell, we've not had any new colour light signals in UK Trainz for quite a few years. And none that exploit the new features in TRS19 and 22 (ie. PBR texturing). Perhaps this could be a project for a gifted signal creator?

After taking a good look Paul, I think that might be exactly what is needed. I've thought about approaching Chrisaw about maybe commissioning some of these, but there are some really odd ones that might not translate well to Trainz.

Those Aspect/Semaphore Hybrids are definitely one of them. I have no idea how those would work in game - let alone the nightmare it would be to script it!

 

[chrisaw]

Sorry I can't help, I've never looked at Trainz colour light signals, and I know nothing about scripting or PBR texturing.
I think the colour lights added to semaphores were usually subsidiary indicators. e.g. calling on, backing, shunt.

Chris.

 

[edh6]

Hybrid colour light/semaphore signals aren't difficult to do, some of the ones I did for the Ffestiniog route have colour light homes with a semaphore distant in the same asset. I can't remember the exact details of scripts/configs I used, but recall it not being particularly difficult.

 

[stovepipe]

What era will your route be?

You may have seen these already, but the SREMG online website has articles from the the Railway Magazine describing the major resignalling scheme between Battersea/Bricklayers Arms and Croydon that ran from 1950 to 1954 over 4 stages. The maps and text imply that colour light signalling already existed at the London end, and all the way to Brighton from Coulsden - the latter being part of the original 1933 electrification scheme. The signals provided for the 1950-54 scheme seem very similar to the original VSR signals by Bloodnok.

Links to the articles-

https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/ExtnOfColourLightSignalling.pdf
https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/BrightonLineResignalling.pdf
https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/Colour-LightSignallingInTheNorwoodTriangle.pdf
https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/CompletionOfBrightonLineC-LSignalling.pdf

 

[Tanker46]

What era will your route be?

You may have seen these already, but the SREMG online website has articles from the the Railway Magazine describing the major resignalling scheme between Battersea/Bricklayers Arms and Croydon that ran from 1950 to 1954 over 4 stages. The maps and text imply that colour light signalling already existed at the London end, and all the way to Brighton from Coulsden - the latter being part of the original 1933 electrification scheme. The signals provided for the 1950-54 scheme seem very similar to the original VSR signals by Bloodnok.

Links to the articles-

https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/ExtnOfColourLightSignalling.pdf
https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/BrightonLineResignalling.pdf
https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/Colour-LightSignallingInTheNorwoodTriangle.pdf
https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/CompletionOfBrightonLineC-LSignalling.pdf

This... This is a wealth of information! I was just starting to delve into the 1950 Electrification Scheme but I had no idea where to start!

Thank you Stovepipe! I'll take a look at these and download the VSR Signals and return with my findings! This should be a good start for sure!!

 

[lewisner]

There are a number of SR and LSWR bracket gantries available and it would be a matter of finding colour light heads which sit at the same height as the brackets. I will have a look tomorrow to see what I have downloaded. I have experimented a bit to replicate the colour light bracket signals on the ECML at Thirsk with limited success.

 

[Tanker46]

There are a number of SR and LSWR bracket gantries available and it would be a matter of finding colour light heads which sit at the same height as the brackets. I will have a look tomorrow to see what I have downloaded. I have experimented a bit to replicate the colour light bracket signals on the ECML at Thirsk with limited success.

I've looked into them but the problem is that the majority of the signal bracket gantries involved do not exist in Trainz currently and the LSWR ones certainly wouldn't have been present on the Ex-LBSCR Network (if there were any left in useage).

Regardless, it seems that most of the Main Line between Brighton and Newhaven was predominantly still run by Semaphore Signalling up until closure in the 1960s. That certainly makes it a tad bit easier to sort out once I get to it.

I'm still going over Stovepipe's references but it appears there's far more to this than I initially thought. Signals are not my forte as I focus primarily on trackwork and rolling stock, but this dilemma has piqued my interest to fill in the gaps on my knowledge regarding the Southern Region. I can't build a proper route if I am ignorant on an area of it's workings.

 

[PortLineParker]

Hi Tanker,

I agree signalling is a key part of any route and one that you want to get right. One of the main reasons I decided to model the S&D between 1956-1958 is because although the BR(W) had taken over commercial control in 1950, they were yet to take any operational control so the infrastructure and trains themselves were still a joint affair between BR(S) and BR(LM). In 1958, the WR did gain operational control and that was when you started to see more WR stock and infrastructure; one of the more noticeable elements in this case were the signals, which I wanted to avoid. Thankfully, Chris has produced many excellent signals which can be used as doubles for those seen on the S&D, so in addition to the LMS and SR signals you would expect I have also made use of his LNER, NER and GER range as they are the same design.

I'd always encourage others to spend their time on getting the signalling right though; consult signal diagrams where you can and if in doubt always look for photos if modelling somewhere prototypical. A 'near enough' substitution may look the part but you'll be surprised at how quickly it can throw a spanner in the works if you're trying to run trains but the signal is wrong, and it can take ages to try and fix it then!

Best of luck with the project though, I'm looking forward to seeing some more screenshots soon of your latest progress.

Cheers,

PLP

 

[Tanker46]

Hi Tanker,

I agree signalling is a key part of any route and one that you want to get right. One of the main reasons I decided to model the S&D between 1956-1958 is because although the BR(W) had taken over commercial control in 1950, they were yet to take any operational control so the infrastructure and trains themselves were still a joint affair between BR(S) and BR(LM). In 1958, the WR did gain operational control and that was when you started to see more WR stock and infrastructure; one of the more noticeable elements in this case were the signals, which I wanted to avoid. Thankfully, Chris has produced many excellent signals which can be used as doubles for those seen on the S&D, so in addition to the LMS and SR signals you would expect I have also made use of his LNER, NER and GER range as they are the same design.

I'd always encourage others to spend their time on getting the signalling right though; consult signal diagrams where you can and if in doubt always look for photos if modelling somewhere prototypical. A 'near enough' substitution may look the part but you'll be surprised at how quickly it can throw a spanner in the works if you're trying to run trains but the signal is wrong, and it can take ages to try and fix it then!

Best of luck with the project though, I'm looking forward to seeing some more screenshots soon of your latest progress.

Cheers,

PLP

I definitely agree what you are saying Parker.

Signalling London and Brighton is definitely not what I thought it was going to be. It's a nightmare. The hardest part is that I only have photos and crude signal box diagrams to go off and that really makes it difficult to get everything correctly. I've looked countless times for some decent books that might help me figure this out, but to no avail.

From what I have managed to figure out, it seems like the main lines between London and places like Brighton, Bournemouth, Chatham and Dover were Electric Signaled while the secondary and branch lines still relied heavily on Semaphore Signals. Given how a large number of secondary lines are featured on this route, this is a breath of fresh air to me.

South London is definitely going to be the real challenge. Everything was Electric Signals, everything was layered on something else and there were sprawling yards and stations to contend with. A lot of those signals are still unaccounted for and might need quite some time to get right.

Given how much of this is going to be complex by going off of photography, I might want to do the semaphores first to get an idea of what will be needed to complete a greater complex area, yes?

 

[JCitron]

I definitely agree what you are saying Parker.

Signalling London and Brighton is definitely not what I thought it was going to be. It's a nightmare. The hardest part is that I only have photos and crude signal box diagrams to go off and that really makes it difficult to get everything correctly. I've looked countless times for some decent books that might help me figure this out, but to no avail.

From what I have managed to figure out, it seems like the main lines between London and places like Brighton, Bournemouth, Chatham and Dover were Electric Signaled while the secondary and branch lines still relied heavily on Semaphore Signals. Given how a large number of secondary lines are featured on this route, this is a breath of fresh air to me.

South London is definitely going to be the real challenge. Everything was Electric Signals, everything was layered on something else and there were sprawling yards and stations to contend with. A lot of those signals are still unaccounted for and might need quite some time to get right.

Given how much of this is going to be complex by going off of photography, I might want to do the semaphores first to get an idea of what will be needed to complete a greater complex area, yes?

I understand what you are trying to accomplish here. It's an amazing project and I wish you lots of luck with this, but heed this warning with signals and AI. For the most part the signaling will work as expected, but I have found out the very hard way that prototypical signaling doesn't always work as expected with our beloved AI drivers.

We go through the trouble of setting up signals as they should be for specific routes and more importantly for junctions and yards only to find out the AI have fits and do weird things. This occurred for me long before the current bugs in TRS22 and up. In the end, I did some compromising and found the best of both worlds by placing the signals accurately as possible in places where it worked and ended up leaving out or using alternative signals in other locations because no matter what I tried, the AI didn't cooperate.

In the end, you will most likely end up with fewer signals than you saw on the plans because of this.

 

[lewisner]

I definitely agree what you are saying Parker.

Signalling London and Brighton is definitely not what I thought it was going to be. It's a nightmare. The hardest part is that I only have photos and crude signal box diagrams to go off and that really makes it difficult to get everything correctly. I've looked countless times for some decent books that might help me figure this out, but to no avail.

From what I have managed to figure out, it seems like the main lines between London and places like Brighton, Bournemouth, Chatham and Dover were Electric Signaled while the secondary and branch lines still relied heavily on Semaphore Signals. Given how a large number of secondary lines are featured on this route, this is a breath of fresh air to me.

South London is definitely going to be the real challenge. Everything was Electric Signals, everything was layered on something else and there were sprawling yards and stations to contend with. A lot of those signals are still unaccounted for and might need quite some time to get right.

Given how much of this is going to be complex by going off of photography, I might want to do the semaphores first to get an idea of what will be needed to complete a greater complex area, yes?

One thing which doesn't exist in Trainz as far as I know is the Searchlight signals favoured by the LNER notably on the ECML and lines out of Liverpool Street. I've found one American 3 aspect searchlight on a post and I think one gantry mounted one but other than that , nix.

 

[lewisner]

These are a couple of my efforts and they are about the best I can do. It would be possible to replicate the lattice semaphore/colour light signal by attaching colour light heads to invisible track as long as you weren't bothered about the colour lights working.

Thirsk Signals 2 11.4.24 by A1 Northeastern, on Flickr

Thirsk Signals 1 11.4.24 by A1 Northeastern, on Flickr