Master Map maker needed

i am learning transdem now, the program is a breeze for anyone wanting to buy it, the hard part is gathering the proper information from the internet, at least that has been my experience so far.
 
The East Broad Top RR is an excellent canidate for a TransDEM route. The mountainainous terrain will add much visual impact to the scene. However, there is little available information regarding track details; i.e. yards and facilities, as well as client industries.
 
There is a DEM of the EBT on the DLC by fishlipsatwork. It may be a place for you to start. It is not TransDEM generated but should still be usable.
 
Wow, that fella must think some one is bored to death and is just dying to take on a mega project! I found out over the last several months just how much work goes into building a route. I keep thinking most of the work is done. I am doing the scenery along the tracks. Just bushes, trees and grass. Most everything is covered right up to the tracks with tree splines and bushes. The last 20 feet or so either side of the tracks is taking forever! "Add an object, rotate, lower, move." That's been my life for the last couple of months. I get in about 8 hours a day. On a good day I might get a mile done, unless I'm close to the river. I have to do the rotate, lower routine along the river also. Some days I wish I had of thought of asking you fellas to do it for me! 35 miles of bush to go, most of it by the river. Oh well, it's not going to be finished for summer, maybe next summer. When that last piece of grass or bush gets planted, I'm gonna celebrate! I may even have a drink or two or three. Boring, boring work at times, but it does look nice! I really hope I never have to go through this again! Honestly, if I lost all my back ups (3), I would just pack it in! I would not start over again for ANY amount of money! I think I would be getting a great deal if some one did all this work for $15,000.

Cheers.....Rick
 
In the OP's #1 post he gave a link that gives a mega wealth of information, track elevations ... etc ... etc ... http://www.spikesys.com/EBT/Tour/top.html

This route would be a breeze (a walk in the woods, as it is a backwoods NG line).

The "Broad Top" route DEM on the DLS is pretty good topography, and has a couple more branch lines over that of the "East Broad Top" route DEM.
 
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quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by mezzoprezzo .
¤ ¤ ¤ Not all Brits are bolshy! ¤ ¤ ¤

One thing to remember,"Tha' can tell a Yorkshire man but tha' can't tell him much."


BLACKWATCH said:
Only one fault with your post Casper, I'm not "Brit", I'm English. :p
Click to expand...

Okay, got it in one... a RUDE Englishman. Don't stomp on the newbies, nurture not torture. Follow my signature links and find the Yesterdayz Trainz group here (http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?100965-Yesterdayz-Trainz-Group) and ask for help, but don't expect to have anything happen fast. We will help you not act like you have two heads, but forget about near term total success. It's a big project even with TransDEM topology to begin, and more of it will be research and digging out historical pictures and such than putting stuff down in surveyor. Period accurate buildings using Blender and Gmax are in between way points on such a task, and you'll need to build computer skills to scale photos into reproductions. Good Luck, and when you run across someone like Blackwatch, give him the time he deserves for such infantile behavior. Nada.
Frank
 
bigboy4014 said:
(1) greetings ... is one currently on the download station, the creator left out key Kuid's such as track and textures and never released them, meaning no one could use it, and i have not the time or the patience for such a project.

PLEASE READ! (important information)
WEBSITE LINK FOR PICTURES AND GRADES AT BOTTOM)
(2) ... and Alvan, with several short branches.

(3) ...The EBT was generally profitable from the 1880s through the 1940s and was able to modernize its infrastructure far more than other narrow gauge railroads. A coal cleaning plant and a full maintenance shops complex were built, bridges were upgraded from iron and wood to steel and concrete, wood rolling stock was replaced by steel, and modern high-powered steam locomotives were bought from the Baldwin Locomotive Works of Philadelphia.
if you can accomplish this feat, please Email me at Dichuz1234@aol.com
I hope to here from you soo
Click to expand...

Just a couple of things...
(1) can be gotten around by gimmacking a cloned track kuid to be the one called for or just by substitution, so the layout you reference is likely something which can be brought to life in a surveyor module. If you want to forward the kuid, I can see if it's something the three of us here around Boston can revive. Between us, we've 20-25 man years experience with Surveyor, so can see what the real problems are, at least.

(2) Alvan, Pennsylvania is a null Wikipedia entry, so edit and take out the dead link. As a Wikipedian and ex-Pennsylvania native, I suspect the right link will the current governing township or other municipal government which has a history section covering that of your period. (Wikipedia doesn't recognize Alvan at all, so the article needs an mention as well.)

(3) Yesterdayz Trainz is considering a route in central Pennsylvania, and that seems likely to be our first long range long distance project starting with a TransDEM of the Harrisburg region and following on from that start. Since we're also into the historical rails and eras, with some of this as an interesting Narrow gauge connecting spur, you might find a few of us interested as one of our connecting projects. A number of us have answered you above, albeit less rudely than some cranky Englishman.

Frank
 
I tried entering the map from the EBT home page, but all I get is a bunch of numbers and a frozen screen. Track elevation data is helpful, but does the map show track details along the whole route.
Fishlips' dem maps sounds like a good start.
 
Fabartus said:


Okay, got it in one... a RUDE Englishman. Don't stomp on the newbies, nurture not torture. Good Luck, and when you run across someone like Blackwatch, give him the time he deserves for such infantile behavior. Nada.
Frank
Click to expand...

Bit of a blinkered view ya got there yank, check out the posts above by your own countrymen who also "stomp on the newbies", I note you don't mention them. :eek:
 
BLACKWATCH said:
Bit of a blinkered view ya got there yank, check out the posts above by your own countrymen who also "stomp on the newbies", I note you don't mention them. :eek:
Click to expand...

If you can't see the difference, and especially the difference in tone, between the way YOU answered him and the way they answered him, likely only God can help you now. Let me try:

BLACKWATCH said:
(1) The user name says it all, another yank who thinks he only has to whistle & the whole world will do his bidding.

(2) Well listen up son, you ain't nothing but a little boy who's new to this Trainzing mularky, you better start learning quick .......

(3) Rule 1: If you want something for nothing, it's better to ask politely.
(4) Rule 2: Treat your elders with a bit of respect, they've been here longer & will know more than you may ever learn.
(5) Rule 3: Realise that you are most likely more ignorant of anything to do with 'RAILWAYS', than anyone over 30 years
of age from this side of the "POND". ;)

(6) So go steady boy, this here 'game' is a bigger life changer than most hobbies. (just ask the addicts on this forum) :D
Click to expand...
  1. I'll grant you there were a couple of exclamations of incredulity there ahead of yours, but your entire post is biased and caustic from it's first line. First a) you start with an assumption; how do you know he's not from Paris or Taiwan? b) you make it derrogitory, 'yank... bidding'. What a wonderfully brilliant way to introduce yourself, and make an impression.
  2. You think calling someone son or sonny is really productive? Really? That he's going to listen to anything after that? That's talking down to him, which says far more about you than you should like to comprehend or feel comfortable about.
  3. He begins: "greetings all i am posting this because i require a master map maker, to make a map for me, i have compiled a list of needed skills in order to do it and they follow as such." which is plenty polite, and has the further virtue of telling why he's asking for attention and help, concisely and to the point. Don't see he's been impolite at all.
  4. Funny, how do you know he wouldn't, or doesn't?
    1. For that fact, another error of assumption. He might be a 99 y.o. asking for help, and he was certainly doing that... or did you miss all that detail he tacked on outlining what he wanted to accomplish?
    2. "& will know more than you may ever learn." -- again arrant nonsense. You have no idea whether he's a scientist that will cure cancer and prolong your miserable life, nor whether he'd stay with Trainz for the next 10 years and run rings around your own experience by then. I can appreciate the sentiment, but what you are telling the world is you are insecure and unhappy you have to continue learning when you'd prefer to coast and take naps.
    3. Why not just dig the hole and take nap there until someone comes along and adds the headstone?
  5. More talk down crap. More assumption-he could be a museum curator in his fifties trying to get something up on a shoestring budget that ties his museum into the rails... More unecessary and irrelevant national biases...
  6. The only actually constructive thing in your post... At least if you'd started with 'T' in 'this' and left off the condescension.
Try not to be an internet troll. Regardless of whatever nationality you may favor. Showing your bias like that is like walking around with your fly unzipped, N'est pas? It's one thing to tease someone with whom you have an association and a past history, quite another to smack down someone new (even if they're foolish) in a hostile way.

Hope this helps, best regards,
Frank

P.S. -- At least on THIS side of the pond, we drive on the right, not the wrong side!
 
Well said, Frank. Kev has a way of being abrupt and somewhat rude. I tend to ignore his posts. I don't know why or what digs at him when we ask questions or post, but he's been this way for quite some time.

Anyway, perhaps the OP might need a tutorial. :)

And this goes back to our projects we've been discussing in the group. Maybe this could be one of the first projects on how to use the topology tools.

John
 
Mining Wikimedia Commons

nugget2225 said:
i am learning transdem now, the program is a breeze for anyone wanting to buy it, the hard part is gathering the proper information from the internet, at least that has been my experience so far.
Click to expand...


  1. If you're having trouble with the geo-data, confer with Steamboateng (next post after) who seems to be particular good with rooting the right stuff from the USGS databases.
  2. If historical, you might consider 'letting your fingers do the walking' by contacting the various local towns reference librarian desks and asking what they have on the local history in paper archives that is not digitized and on line.
    1. There's likely to be a lot in any place with a bit of local pride. We're just about 20 years now into the internet.
    2. Ask also about any local historical societies they know about, either town or county, and about where you might find images...
    3. Following up with a short pleasant phone call after you have a person's name will go a long way toward getting some engaged, helpful allies, not brusk assistance.
  3. If the area were central to my layout and close enough to make into a research trip, a personal visit would be much much preferred, and on a daytrip like that, you could line up several locales to data mine on the same day.
    1. Put that idea together with an 'arranged appointment' with your new made ally above, and likely the reference person will have stuff pulled for you to just grab and sit down with when you arrive.
    2. Flowers... when it can't hurt, even if it's just a lovely picture in a thank you email off the many gorgeous pics on the Wikimedia commons. (browse: Category:Flowers)
    3. Don't forget the Public Domain Trains collection either: (here: Category:Trains) Finding how the area is categorized in Wikipedia (down at all page's bottoms), will likely lead to a category or series of categories of images in the region on the Wikimedia Commons. (example of one in (4-2) section follows)
    4. For example consider Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, which our Yesterdayz Trainz group is thinking on as one big yard anchor for a route. In 30-40 seconds I found:
      1. Loads of historical background, including links and reference I can further mine:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrisburg,_Pennsylvania
      2. Near the bottom is always External Links, just click on the Table of contents and skip most of the article, to find pics this way. This kind of section gives the links (Note the box on your right margin) to other Wikimedia projects about Harrisburg, and the one Media, is the Wikimedia Commons and so Pics...
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrisburg,_Pennsylvania#External_links
      3. Not the best populated category, but see the category 'parent' link(s) down the page bottom, and note the upper left corner notice the page was a redirected connection... click on and follow back the parent category to a more general look:
        from... http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Harrisburg by the bottom category...
        Category:Harrisburg,_Pennsylvania
      4. Ahh, this might have some kit bash possibilities... Railroads use bridges don't they?
        http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Bridges_in_Harrisburg
      5. Despite it's ruined state now, or it's transition to a pedestrian bridge as I believe I suspect from another thumb... This is certainly a good start on a Blender run for an earlier period setting:
        http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Walnut_street_br1.jpg
      6. Thirty-forty seconds, guys. Wiki categories are a secret road to some treasure mines.
      7. There's likely to be lots of snaps of public buildings, town squares and all that if you root around.
      8. Clicking directly on a Wikipedia image in an article will lead you to the source picture in large and possibly even larger expanded details.
        1. One's hosted on Wikipedia Categories are not fully internationally free of copyright entanglements, but we don't care. It's just one reason they might permanently be on the 'pedia instead of the Media center.
        2. Clicking again on the info page when the pics expand will take you to the commons source image, and so to the commons categories cross-linking other goodies.
        3. Just poke around and follow a few chains of links... you'll have fun and figure it out in no time. There is some neat images up there. Thank you Florida for holding up Wikimedia's servers!
  4. Wikipedia's See also and External links and References sections on page bottoms of such town articles would be a good way to find other leads...
    1. Don't skip counties and such. There is a heirarchy, especially down at the category end in page bottoms, that lead places you want to go.
    2. Municipal links were pretty common thereon last time I read that sort of article.
    3. Get to the right Official town site, and there'll be a cross link to the libraries.
    4. articles will mention and list historical museums and societies more often than not. Likely have those in the External links, or in the reference footnotes or both...
  5. Tourism and travel businesses could give some good area leads and an occasional gem. Thus, the chambers of commerce sites there would be a good place to visit. An email to a upscale motel or two asking about local historical places and locales... just say you're planning a trip that way in 3-4 months. By the time you haven't made a reservation, they'll have forgotten you never did! <BSEG>
  6. Oh--almost forgot... Local bookstores, especially Barnes and Nobles chain stores here in the USA have a Local references shelf section. Just yesterday Jcitron and I found a ton-a-bunch of softcover, recently published -- most heavy on period pics and the story by local historians -- collections that had a lot on his Boston and Maine TransDEM project. I think he grabbed 3-4 of those. We took a look at quite a few places in their old period dressing we either know from their look now, and as they looked Then, good stuff. Pricey though... but as noted, this kind of thing is a years long effort.
Hope this helps someone!

Frank
 
The "Broad Top" DEM seems to be the most complete, over that of the "East Broad Top" DEM.

One of the most difficult parts of the line is at Coles, which has a muleshoe curve making a 30' deep cutting through the lowest point of the mountain ridge. Various trestles were used throughout, and most trestles were filled in with earth at a later date. I approximate some steep portions of the line had as much as a 4.75% gradient, while other locations had an up and down roller coaster gradient. With rough tracklaying I am getting some rediculous gradients of 10% to 20% ... much too steep

HOG lines can be way off by +/- 20' in all directions, or much more. So the HOG lines should be taken with a grain of salt, as the they are a very rough guestimate, and are not accurate at all for exact track placment.
 
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cascaderailroad said:
The "Broad Top" DEM seems to be the most complete, over that of the "East Broad Top" DEM.

One of the most difficult parts of the line is at Coles, which has a muleshoe curve making a 30' deep cutting through the lowest point of the mountain ridge. Various trestles were used throughout, and most trestles were filled in with earth at a later date. I approximate some steep portions of the line had as much as a 4.75% gradient, while other locations had an up and down roller coaster gradient. With rough tracklaying I am getting some rediculous gradients of 10% to 20% ... much too steep

HOG lines can be way off by +/- 20' in all directions, or much more. So the HOG lines should be taken with a grain of salt, as the they are a very rough guestimate, and are not accurate at all for exact track placment.
Click to expand...

Gradients sound more like Railroad Tycoon than Trainz, don't they! Jcitron advises against having TransDEM laying tracks, so maybe you're finding out why.

Frank
 
Guys, BLACKWATCH has been with us for many years. While I don't particularly condone his internet manners, I have learned to take him with a grain of salt (most of the time). I see him as a colorful, cranky, old Englishman, toddy (or pint) in his left hand, quaintly stumbling along, while trying to reach out to us 'Yanks'. He has often been helpful to us Trainzers over the years, and often shows some signs of 'socially redeeming value' to the community.
 
Fabartus said:
Gradients sound more like Railroad Tycoon than Trainz, don't they! Jcitron advises against having TransDEM laying tracks, so maybe you're finding out why. Frank
Click to expand...
I spoke with the OP, and he sounds like a very intelegent fellow, who has a huge knowledge of the EBT, history, and trackplans. So this route will be one of my 5 routes that I work on (sometimes one must have several routes going on, to break up the monotony).

The EBT had 2 tunnels near Kimmel and Coles, and that is where I am starting, and the OP advises me that the EBT had a maximum grade of 2.75%.

 
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cascaderailroad said:
HOG lines can be way off by +/- 20' in all directions, or much more. So the HOG lines should be taken with a grain of salt, as the they are a very rough guestimate, and are not accurate at all for exact track placment.
Click to expand...
For a better understanding all three components involved should be a taken into account: MicroDEM, HOG and TIGER. At the time when those fishlipsatwork maps where produced, MicroDEM/HOG was the only reasonable option for DEM-based terrain. MicroDEM, as the name says, is a DEM viewer/converter. Maps, raster or vector, are not its prime focus. I believe that TIGER support in MicroDEM is just by chance, presumably as a result of a university research project (where MicroDEM is coming from). TIGER, on the other hand, isn't really a large scale topographic map. Its scale, according to specs, is just 1:160,000, but it apparently meets US Census requirements as they publish it. Now, with a 1:160,000 map it should not surprise that you'll find rivers flowing uphill, when projecting TIGER onto a 30m DEM. I would concentrate on watercourses. They should always be at the lowest elevations, and we are talking about horizontal accuracy here. The 1:160,000 map is at its limits. HOG, at last, is the format converter. HOG does not know anything about geo data and cannot be blamed for misaligned TIGER lines.

Fabartus said:
Gradients sound more like Railroad Tycoon than Trainz, don't they! Jcitron advises against having TransDEM laying tracks, so maybe you're finding out why.
Click to expand...

With TIGER it's about horizontal accuracy. With TransDEM and arbitrary vector data converted to Trainz splines it's about vertical accuracy or more precisely the complete absence of the vertical dimension in the data source.

Unless you have close relations to your favourite railway company and are able to obtain 3D track geometry data from them or you have some CAD software with a track geometry add-on and produce 3D vector data yourself you have to stick with 2D data.

Now, when I implemented the spline feature in TransDEM I could test with vector data created by the Zusi tools (my "CAD") and also samples of original railway vector data. And I decided, if the vertical component was there, I could use it, not only to set the track spline points at the designated elevation, but also to adjust the terrain, shaping cuttings and embankments. But without the 3rd dimension in the data source this feature is pretty useless.

With 2D vector data the only reasonable option is to place it it on top of the terrain. And then everything is down to DEM accuracy. DEMs at 3 arc sec and even many at 0.75 arc sec, 1 arc sec, 20 to 30m, do not model man-made features of the transportation network. A road or track spline will then become a roller coaster. Its gradient cannot be correct because there is simply no data for the elevation. It's a different story with many of the NED 1/3 and 1/9 arc DEMs (and a minority of lower resolution DEMs). Such hi-res DEMs often have all the cuttings and embankments and then even 2D vector data fits nicely. It may still be a few metres off and that is again due to scale. Our standard 1:24,000 USGS topo map is reasonable but still leave something to desire. Over here in Europo track geometry plans are in an 1:1,000 scale, some at 1:3,000, and I guess it will be similar in the US.

Don't rely too much on ortho-images for ultimate precision, not when taken from Google Earth. I found that ortho-images published by official mapping agencies tend to have less positioning error.
 
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