How and when will Surveyor 2.0 be deployed?

I originally thought we would see Surveyor 2.0 deployed in SP4 to Trainz Plus users. Now I see that is not the case, although it is highly possible I misunderstood the plans for release of Surveyor 2.0.

For us Trainz Plus subscribers what is the plan for deployment of Surveyor 2.0 and when?

Bob

SP4 is a general release for all TRS19 while surveyor 2.0 will be a beta release for Plus and Gold testing. Somebody did say it is in SP4 but needs a code to release it to testers when they have ironed out any problems in their testing.

The basic Surveyor2, has been on your harddisk since 16april2021 (SP3) (my middlename is somebody)
that we can't reach/test it, is because they still work on it
You seen the Surveyor2 - Discussion Thread, hopefully it gives the Crew enough feedback to enhance it further
hope it won't get rushed. Looking forward to the new features
As i understand it like stagecoach posted, Plus and Gold are the guinea pigs first
Then in TRS22 we all have it hopefully (would be a good selling point- I would buy it at once))

stagecoach said:

SP4 is a general release for all TRS19 while surveyor 2.0 will be a beta release for Plus and Gold testing. Somebody did say it is in SP4 but needs a code to release it to testers when they have ironed out any problems in their testing.

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Thanks for the replies all.

I hope Surveyor 2.0 is released soon. I have been holding up my efforts to upgrade my routes to full TRS19 standards until Surveyor 2.0 came out. Route upgrading is pretty tedious under the current Surveyor and the new functionality in 2.0 will help to speed up the process considerably.

BTW I don't want to use Betas as I don't want to mess up my routes.

Bob

Trainz is in beta state since day 1 Bob and will always be
Even official releases like SP2 can seriously harm any work done (the spine issues we had)
Find a version that works comfy for you and work there.
Realize that older saved route/sessions will always work in newer versions
Example if you build in TANE, all users from TANE till TRS19SP4+hotfix can use it
if you build in TRS19sp4, only users with that version can use it


Same applies to content creation,
always go for the lowest possible build when releasing, so you reach the most users
have fun with Trainz

G.M. said:

Trainz is in beta state since day 1 Bob and will always be
Even official releases like SP2 can seriously harm any work done (the spine issues we had)
Find a version that works comfy for you and work there.
Realize that older saved route/sessions will always work in newer versions
Example if you build in TANE, all users from TANE till TRS19SP4+hotfix can use it
if you build in TRS19sp4, only users with that version can use it


Same applies to content creation,
always go for the lowest possible build when releasing, so you reach the most users
have fun with Trainz

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Being an ex-software engineer (1993-2005 after I retired from the Army) I do not agree with you on that beta comment.

There is a major difference between a Beta and a public release. Betas are released only to selected persons for for testing purposes to find/eliminate possible bugs before general release to the public.

Initial betas are often quite buggy but improve over time with each additional beta release. The more complicated the program the more potential for problems in the beta, especially if you add new features or change existing ones. A beta may go through several testing iterations before the program is deemed stable enough for public release. A beta release always has the potential to mess up a saved game file, and I have seen that happen. It is that potential where my concern comes from.

While I agree with you that no program is ever 100% perfect, and there is constant evolution over time, I want to ensure that the program I am using now is relatively stable before I use it on one of my existing routes. I am not talking about simple operation here that simply loads and runs a route. I am talking about physically changing or altering an existing route in Surveyor that others will use when I have completed the upgrades to it. I have a large investment in both time and money in my routes so I don't feel like experimenting with them in betas and potentially losing a lot of work.

Bob

The original quote came from Tony long ago.
You describe an ideal situation Bob, that's how it should be
if you want stable, for me TRS19 100240 is the most stable

Yeah, us Plus and Gold members get to play with the different vials containing blue and red fizzing liquid. :hehe:

I keep a separate install for testing which is a duplicate of my "working" version so I can compare apples to pears to ensure that things are the same.

G(somebody)M softly hums: purple rain, purple raaaaiin
I do the same John, 2 versions side by side, apples and pears

MSGSapper said:

Being an ex-software engineer (1993-2005 after I retired from the Army) I do not agree with you on that beta comment.

There is a major difference between a Beta and a public release. Betas are released only to selected persons for for testing purposes to find/eliminate possible bugs before general release to the public.
-snip-
Bob

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Actually, I would say it's more accurate to say that Beta's are released only to selected persons who don't want to wait for "additonal features" and are willing to pay a monthly subscription fee.

My comment is not meant to be critical (it may sound that way) but simply accurate. I'm guessing a good number of "beta testers" use the beta release as their core install and have no backup of previous version. It's also likely that a good number of these "beta testers" have never filed an official bug report (though they complain often and loud on the forum when things go wrong.)

btw... I happen to be one of those "beta testers." The qualification? An automatic payment each month.

Again... not being critical. I suspect this has to be done for N3V to have enough revenue to continue significant development. But that's just a guess. I'm happy to support any development my meager payment each month provides. I spend more going through fast food drive through just once a month.

As often happens way to much in these forums, we seem to have gone off on a unintended tangent here. While interesting after a fashion, I didn't really want to discuss the pros and cons of using betas in place of public releases. If you feel comfortable using betas then do so, as for me I don't. Lets let it go at that regarding that topic please.

All I want to know, from an authoritative source at N3V if possible, is how and when will Surveyor 2.0 be deployed?

Bob

MSGSapper said:

All I want to know, from an authoritative source at N3V if possible, is how and when will Surveyor 2.0 be deployed?

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Disclaimer: I am not an authoritative source, just an interested user with the beta stream on one computer and the non-beta stream on another (my development) computer.

Why the insistence on a timetable ("when will Surveyor 2.0 be deployed?")? The first releases will certainly be betas with all the risks they contain and any date that is magically conjured out of the air will certainly slip.

Have we all forgotten the birth of T:ANE? It has been reported that contractual agreements with a distributor (??) forced the release of T:ANE on a particular date long before it was stable enough for release. The ensuring firefight in these forums is legendary.

I am also in the middle of a major update to a very large route and would love to use the new development tools in Surveyor 2.0 but I am happy to continue using the Surveyor 1.0 tools until Surveyor 2.0 is stable enough (it will never be 100%) for my satisfaction.

My thoughts.

2 quotes cut from Tony's replies to questions in the Surveyor 2.0 thread in this forum:

We've been working on these tools for almost a year now and we're pretty confident people are going to love them. It won't be that long before we can share more detail and then get external testers involved.

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That's the plan - more likely TRS22. It will also depend upon how long it takes to polish everything, how well it is received by Trainz Plus and Gold Class members, and how many other features we may decide to add prior to a new Trainz release.

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I'd say we have some time yet before it is released as a ready for prime time feature. Personally I don't see Plus or Gold as final versions of any beta feature. Since IMHO N3V view these versions as development versions to test and receive comments and suggestions for new features they are working on. I would hope content creators don't use these versions to develop new content and assume they are risk free. I'd hope they used the last stable general release for that purpose.

Bob Pearson

'd say we have some time yet before it is released as a ready for prime time feature. Personally I don't see Plus or Gold as final versions of any beta feature. Since IMHO N3V view these versions as development versions to test and receive comments and suggestions for new features they are working on. I would hope content creators don't use these versions to develop new content and assume they are risk free. I'd hope they used the last stable general release for that purpose.

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Gold is just a fully packaged TRS2019 and beta tests, but not the pre-release content and new testing features prior to the public betas.

Plus has access to pre-releases plus the betas.

Plus its self is just as stable as the other versions of TRS2019 and there is no differences for route or content development. Sure people can install the new special features and pre-release features in and use them, but I wouldn't recommend that in a production environment. The recommended practice is to duplicate the install and use that for testing as I said above. I have my apples and pears. Apples meaning my working version and pears as the test version. Should the beta-testing fall flat on its face, I still have my good-working copy operational. Having the two different versions also allows for comparison should there be some oddities introduced by the special features being tested.

My Question here is WHY do we have pay to beta test when we have already paid for product.

poolboy said:

My Question here is WHY do we have pay to beta test when we have already paid for product.

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You don't have to pay, unless you want to be a beta tester. Gold sub testers have more of an investment in the game. Paying for the original product does not guarantee being able to beta test.

As pointed out above, you pay for the product (latest retail release) and then, if you enjoy pain and want to be a beta tester, you can download and install the beta test version as a separate copy on your system. If you are really, really into pain then you can replace your working retail copy with the beta version - I did this until I learned my lesson. Now I install the beta on a different computer. Beta testing is voluntary and does not involve any payment, except for some pain. But without those dedicated, tireless, noble, self sacrificing, all knowing and did I mention handsome, beta testers, Trainz would develop far more slowly and have far fewer features.

grazlash & pware, u both miss the point if we have already brought the N3V have made the and entitled to a stable and reliable product. we are helping to improve the product for N3V why should we have to pay to do so, considering make money from us. this was not the case when beta testing TANE. Example Microsoft & nvidia dont make u pay to beta test. plus i have already been there and beta tested for TANE.

Simply put... N3V needs to generate more revenue to develop future releases. They are small and are no Microsoft or NVIDIA. Thus, they have to come up with ways to obtain that revenue. Finding people like me to pay a bit extra for Plus is but one way to do that. I'm happy to help. The Plus subscription is little more than going through a fast food drive through one time a month. I'd rather my money go to Trainz than a breakfast burrito that lasts for 3 minutes and just makes me fat.

By the way.. Since finding Trainz a few years ago I have paid for '19 Early Release (outright) , Plus (through Gold/Plus subscription), and I have a separate 2nd account for 19 Standard. These purchases were my decision, no one twisted my arm. I'm happy to, in small ways, support Trainz. Don't always agree with their decisions and methods, but that's their business, not mine. I can choose to support them or not.

But know that I'm an ex-business owner and I will almost always come down on the side of the people who took a chance to start a business, operate it, and deal with all the issues the world heaps upon you. Especially in these days of rapid change, Pandemic, etc, etc, If we are able, to need to support the things we love.

No, I didn't miss the point. If you want to beta test, then purchase the ability to do it. A Plus sub is cheap and if you don't like the "bleeding edge" cancel the sub. Someone paying a gold or plus sub is likely to be a more dedicated and experienced user of Trainz and more thorough while testing.